A date for the "Great Apostasy"

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Also, my other post regarding Fowler’s description of universalists as well as how those passages leading up to CCC460,

… show that we 1) simply partake in the grace of Christ by having original sin wiped away through baptism…2) after Christ’s glorious ascension into heaven, by experiencing God’s love, by growing in holiness…not based on our righteousness but on emptying ourselves of ‘self’, our selfish sensuality, that includes our way of looking at things, our own willfulness, and 3) by reception of the sacraments…that lead us to extend Christ’s joy being humble servants by living out the beatitudes and spiritual and corporal works of mercy…

We partake in God’s grace, but we are still separate, we are creatures.

John Paul II loved mankind, but if you take any time to read his teachings, his catechesis, his encyclicals, we are always creatures…In ‘Threshold of Hope’, he states that God wants to save us, help us, and the closest He can come to us is through Christ, God Made Man to our level as human beings.

All for the purpose to show us His love that is not provided by other religions of the world.

Mormonism is based on the accusation and denial that all religions are an abomination, and that the great Roman Church is something one would call a bad word. Where is God’s hope and love in such constructs of beliefs?

Why is there nothing out there to reflect any teachings or books of Mormonism prior to Joseph Smith?

Former Catholics are still holding on to their Catholic teachings and beliefs, and irregardless overlaying the Mormon beliefs.

Again, such integration of Mormonism and Catholicism is a form of new Mormon evagenlizing and reflects its own going obsession with the Catholic Church.

In the Catholic Church, there is the ancient apostolic directive ‘Write it Down’. So we go all the way back, 2000 years, in teaching, and thoughts and doctrines are deepened as each generation grows in faith and understanding.

Likewise for us, it is impossible for us to ignore all the teachings and anti-Catholic teachings and rituals of Mormonism, and I recently went back to Ex Mormon.org…and see the damage false teachings have done to those people…practically all of them are atheists.
 
LivingWaters7 said:
:rotfl: 🤷

There you go again. I will keep on believing that, through Christ’s atoning sacrifice, we may become heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17), that we can be like Christ (1 John 3:2), that we can overcome and sit on Christ’s throne with Him, even as He sits on the Father’s throne with Him (Revelation 3:21). This is something beyond my comprehension, is not something that I think about on a daily basis, and is not something that I obsess about. I do accept it as a scriptural, revealed Truth.

As a Latter-day Saint, my greatest desire, as I mentioned already (it seems as if you insist on continuing to tell me what my desires are, odd), is to return to the presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, to be with my Savior, Jesus Christ, and with my family, for eternity.

Take care, you are in my prayers.
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"That is the purpose of the life of men and women on this earth: to pursue their eternal destiny. Eternal means Godlike and to become like God. One of the succeeding prophets said: ‘As man is, God once was. And as God is, man may become.’ That is an extremely challenging idea… it explains the purpose of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is to put people’s feet on the pathway to a glorified existence in the life to come…” Dallin Oakes

Everything a Mormon believes has “I will be a god” at the center. Everything a Mormon believes is based on an idea that you are a god in the making. Including everything you just said here. So you can stop pretending otherwise.

GOD, as defined by Mormonism has no difference between you and God. You think you are Gods. God is a title for which you strive to achieve, because you already believe that you are by nature, a God. You honor a person you call Jesus Christ because he agreed in a pre-existence to do what is necessary for you to be a God. I don’t know why you insist on denying it. It comes across as dishonest.

We do not become Gods. It has to be said over and over to you, until you understand.
 
LivingWaters, you should spend the same amount of time studying the history of Mormonism and its beliefs, its attitudes, language use, and practices as you did Catholicism.

Joseph Smith gave the Masonic hand signal calling out for help before he was shot out of a window and hit the ground. He did not die for Jesus Christ or even called on Him for help.

Your baptisms for the dead don’t even call upon the Holy Name of Jesus.

Your religion considers all other creeds an abomination, and you are made instant saints for joining. Double negative.
 
LivingWaters7 said:
:rotfl: 🤷

There you go again. I will keep on believing that, through Christ’s atoning sacrifice, we may become heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17), that we can be like Christ (1 John 3:2), that we can overcome and sit on Christ’s throne with Him, even as He sits on the Father’s throne with Him (Revelation 3:21). This is something beyond my comprehension, is not something that I think about on a daily basis, and is not something that I obsess about. I do accept it as a scriptural, revealed Truth.

As a Latter-day Saint, my greatest desire, as I mentioned already (it seems as if you insist on continuing to tell me what my desires are, odd), is to return to the presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, to be with my Savior, Jesus Christ, and with my family, for eternity.

Take care, you are in my prayers.
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LivingWaters - I am not doubting your greatest desire, but it must be admitted that the LDS are taught that they will be equal to God if they carry out his commandments. It is taught in your scriptures and in your manuals.

D&C 132:19-20:

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Chapter 47: Exaltation
Gospel Principles, (2011), 275–80 (edited for length)

The Plan for Our Progression
When we lived with our Heavenly Father, He explained a plan for our progression. We could become like Him, an exalted being. The plan required that we be separated from Him and come to earth. This separation was necessary to prove whether we would obey our Father’s commandments even though we were no longer in His presence. The plan provided that when earth life ended, we would be judged and rewarded according to the degree of our faith and obedience.

Exaltation
•What is exaltation?
Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.

Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:
  1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:62).
  2. They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).
  3. They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase.
  4. They will receive a fulness of joy.
  5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20). President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to His commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:36; italics in original).
 
With reference to LivingWater’s comments about laughing to ours, I wonder about the Mormons laughing at the Nicene Creed as well at their former conferences.

I don’t think Mormon beliefs and practices are at all funny. The opposite, I find them fraudulent.

The Epistles tell us that it is anathema to follow a different message of an angel.

We are not to take the Lord’s name in vain, we are not to contradict the teachings of Christ or the instructions of our Apostles, or to fall into private interpretation but stay with their testimony of faith.
 
KathleenGee said:
With reference to LivingWater’s comments about laughing to ours, I wonder about the Mormons laughing at the Nicene Creed as well at their former conferences.

I don’t think Mormon beliefs and practices are at all funny. The opposite, I find them fraudulent.

The Epistles tell us that it is anathema to follow a different message of an angel.

We are not to take the Lord’s name in vain, we are not to contradict the teachings of Christ or the instructions of our Apostles, or to fall into private interpretation but stay with their testimony of faith.
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Yes, I agree, which is why it is important to not allow the Mormon idea of godhood to be overlaid onto Catholic teaching. How we speak about who God is, is important. If we speak of God as anything but how God has revealed himself, we are speaking of a false God. This is idolatry.

God is One. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Mormonism ventures far and away from the True God of Christianity.

LW may think it humorous to play the games he/she does, I just think it is pitiful.

Elton John’s lyrics still apply to the situation, and are humorous at the same time. Showing via humor, the less than humorous position of Mormonism.

It’s tough to be a God
Tread where mortals have not trod
Be deified when really you’re a sham
Be an object of devotion
Be the subject of psalms
It’s a rather touching notion
All those prayers and those salaams
And who am I to bridle if I’m forced to be an idol
If they say that I’m a God, that’s what I am

:eek:

Making oneself a God, is a sham and idolatry. There isn’t a way around it. Catholic teaching has never been otherwise.
 
I need to delve deeper into Meister Eckhart quotes on the nature of God. I have the Blakey translation, ordered it from the library, and immediately regretted not getting myself a copy. Once I get mine, it will be so marked up and annotated, it will be MINE. They call him a mystic, but he was very psychological.

I believe him when he said that he was misquoted, or spoke wrongly in the heat of a few homilies. Not at all a JS. So badly misinterpreted.
 
Rebecca…

Yes the overlay of Catholic beliefs with Mormonism…that is what I am perceiving in them since they discovered the early Church Fathers just so many years ago…and projecting Mormon polytheism into the Catholic partaking of divine nature…

Which means the washing away of Original Sin and restoring us back into relationship with the Heavenly Father through Christ, and the life long journey of growing in Christ through His Word and Sacraments, and extending His joy, works of mercy, in the Kingdom of the Beatitudes…we always adopted and remaining as creatures.

All this overlay of Mormonism over Catholicism, and the forthcoming Mormon Temple in Rome…this is their plan to take over and be the true Christian religion, sooner than later.

The imagery, beliefs, practices, and use of language is very different than that used today, which speaks in resonance of Catholicism.

The alpha and omega in Mormonism is still man.
 
KathleenGee said:
Tom Nosser…again, your interpretation on Catholicism is mano a mano…man to man. You are not seeing the transcendence of faith…recall our talk on Honorious the pope?

God is not about 1, 2, 3…God first, Christ second, Holy Spirit third…like walking down the street with the man in front, the woman behind, and the children trailing along.

Christ sacrificed His human will to the Father’s will.

The Holy Trinity is set in eternal time, in the state of being, “I AM WHO AM”.

To become a Catholic and to enter into communion, we have to sacrifice ourselves to the point of how we look at things.

If you want to hold on to your way of looking at things, you will never become a Catholic.
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Kathleen,
I do remember well our talk on Honorius, but I am unsure what that means here.
However, St. Justin is the one who said Christ was in the second place.
I responded to another poster that claimed Justin couldn’t really mean deification because he claimed there was one God. Justin was saying there was one God the Father and that Christ was in the second place.
I have tried to convince Catholics they have a good reason to believe in deification. In this thread I am primarily saying that Catholics are misrepresenting the ECF.
Again, until Athanasius, no ECF when speaking of men becoming gods limited the final state of deified humans.
Someone said Justin taught 1 God so he was not really speaking of deification, but Justin was speaking of the Father not the one God of modern Catholicism. That modern God of Catholic thought is a neo-modalist construction of Augustine. I do not think even Athanasius would be comfortable with this theology.

So I do not need to remake Catholicism. I am saying that the theology I embrace is in alignment with the Bible and the early ECF. The theology of most Catholics is not.

Where I misrepresent Justin or any pre-fourth century ECFs?
Charity, TOm
 
Tom, I am wondering if there is some semantic confusion here.

Please define:

deification

theosis

exaltation.

In particular, what does each have to do with denying the flesh, seeking to make our human wills align with God’s will, seeking the approval of our fellow beings, hero worship, idolatry, and the abuse of religion to satisfy our own earthly desires, and similar issues? Which is more important-- pleasing God, or pleasing our fellow human beings? When we gain earthly honors and power, does it indicate that we have pleased God? Do you believe that most of the leaders of the LDS church have submitted to God’s will in their lives, to a degree far exceeding that of the rank-and-file of LDS membership? Etc and etc and etc…

What do you know about the canonization process by which the Catholic Church declares people to have reached union with God?

I think you are pulling your own assumptions about those quotes from the ECF, and are misusing the words used. Remember, they did not write in modern-day English.

Again, let us define our terms.
 
Im curious. With all this talk about becoming a god. How does one become a god or god-like?
 
TOmNossor said:
Kathleen,
I do remember well our talk on Honorius, but I am unsure what that means here.
However, St. Justin is the one who said Christ was in the second place.
I responded to another poster that claimed Justin couldn’t really mean deification because he claimed there was one God. Justin was saying there was one God the Father and that Christ was in the second place.
I have tried to convince Catholics they have a good reason to believe in deification. In this thread I am primarily saying that Catholics are misrepresenting the ECF.
Again, until Athanasius, no ECF when speaking of men becoming gods limited the final state of deified humans.
Someone said Justin taught 1 God so he was not really speaking of deification, but Justin was speaking of the Father not the one God of modern Catholicism. That modern God of Catholic thought is a neo-modalist construction of Augustine. I do not think even Athanasius would be comfortable with this theology.

So I do not need to remake Catholicism. I am saying that the theology I embrace is in alignment with the Bible and the early ECF. The theology of most Catholics is not.

Where I misrepresent Justin or any pre-fourth century ECFs?
Charity, TOm
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The limit to deification (becoming gods) is God. Through Christ we share in the divine nature, which is eternal life. Christ took away the sins of the world and over came death. With eternal life we can see God.
St. Irenaeus:
For the Uncreated is perfect, that is, God. Now it was necessary that man should in the first instance be created; and having been created, should receive growth; and having received growth, should be strengthened; and having been strengthened, should abound; and having abounded, should recover [from the disease of sin]; and having recovered, should be glorified; and being glorified, should see his Lord. For God is He who is yet to be seen, and the beholding of God is productive of immortality, but immortality renders one near unto God.
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St. Athanasius:
He said that God had made all things out of pre-existent and uncreated matter, just as the carpenter makes things only out of wood that already exists. But those who hold this view do not realize that to deny that God is Himself the Cause of matter is to impute limitation to Him, just as it is undoubtedly a limitation on the part of the carpenter that he can make nothing unless he has the wood. How could God be called Maker and Artificer if His ability to make depended on some other cause, namely on matter itself?
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Is this what Joseph Smith and Lorenzo Snow taught?
 
In addition, how do you interpret Matthew 19:20-24?
16 And behold one came and said to him: Good Master, what good shall I do that I may have life
everlasting?
17 But he said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou
wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith to him: Which? And Jesus said: *Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit
adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness.
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith to him: All these have I kept from my youth: what is yet wanting to me?
21 Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast and give to the poor, and thou
shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
22 And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great
possessions.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the
kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a
rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.
25 And when the disciples had heard this, they wondered very much, saying: Who then can be
saved?
26 And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are
possible
27 Then Peter answering, said to him: Behold we have left all things, and have followed thee:
what therefore shall we have?
28 And Jesus said to them: Amen, I say to you, that you, who have followed me, in the
regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on
twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or
children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive a hundred-fold, and shall possess life
everlasting.
30 *But many that are first, shall be last: and the last shall be first.
Douay-Rheims Chaloner
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Hi Tom,

Yes, you need to define terms here about deification, theosis, etc., because the Christianity never believed we would become gods. Never.

I made it clear, drawing on passages in regards to CCC460 that we partake in divine grace through baptism and being wash of original sin, in the growth of holiness, in responding to Christ’s teachings and the beatitudes, and in the reception of the Word and Eucharist…as did previous saints CCC460 refers to.

I also shared a writing of St. Athanasius that does not imply in any way we become gods. The Early Church Fathers all speculated, none were 100% perfect in their reflections as the history of philosophical reason was still in the Church.

Irregardless, the Apostles Creed does define One God…about 100 AD. Again, we cannot consider the Person of God on equal or same nature as a human person.

Likewise we look to the deposit of faith of all Christians, and reading the lives of our early saints and their testimonies attest to the fact that entered into the divine life…but always as creatures. I find the diary of Ss. Perpetua and Felicity full of divine presence, but they communicated nevertheless they are recipients of this new life…within. They were a good example of those with universal faith, many times being the ones to be sacrificed for their faith, but inspiring so many after their deaths.

Unfortunately, Mormonism has only one martyr, if I recall correctly, in its history.
 
Again, Tom, you come across as drawing on certain phrases without context of the whole.

St. Justin the Martyr in 150 AD, ‘…God speaks…But this offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father was with the Father before all creatures, and the Father communed with Him.’ Among many others…

St. Irenaeus, 180 AD, ‘But the Son eternally coexists with the Father’.

To get context of early Church fathers on the Trinity, go to www.bible.ca/H-trinity.htm. The Church states Christ is always one with the Father with the Holy Spirit.

And when we partake of the Eucharist, we are being nourished by none other than Christ Himself, Who works through us in joy, charity, and as a humble servant in the transcendence of the Beatitudes. This is how creatures participate in the life of the divine, of the Holy Trinity.

If it was anything more, then what would it be?..how would we then define ourselves becoming gods and at what point and would we then make new creatures and give them souls?..so on and so on.

The science of Christology did not immediately become complete at Pentecost. Irregardless, our Creed, liturgy, the books of Scripture and our ecclesial administration was completed around 100 AD, the Mass celebrated throughout the entire Christian world at that time. There was uniformity of faith that grew in depth and understanding in the following coming years. You have to take into context the age of the Church and the conditions upon which it grew.

What is amazing is that our construct of faith still reflects the Apostles Creed which continue to recite at daily Mass, this profession of faith going on for 2000 years.
But then Mormons are given license to change their beliefs and morph ad infinitum…

Anyway, if people here check out the link given here in this post, you will find many teachings of St. Justin the Martyr and other early Church fathers.

Nothing taught that we become gods, and that there is but one God.
 
LongJourney said:
Tom, I am wondering if there is some semantic confusion here.

Please define:

deification

theosis

exaltation.

In particular, what does each have to do with denying the flesh, seeking to make our human wills align with God’s will, seeking the approval of our fellow beings, hero worship, idolatry, and the abuse of religion to satisfy our own earthly desires, and similar issues? Which is more important-- pleasing God, or pleasing our fellow human beings? When we gain earthly honors and power, does it indicate that we have pleased God? Do you believe that most of the leaders of the LDS church have submitted to God’s will in their lives, to a degree far exceeding that of the rank-and-file of LDS membership? Etc and etc and etc…

What do you know about the canonization process by which the Catholic Church declares people to have reached union with God?

I think you are pulling your own assumptions about those quotes from the ECF, and are misusing the words used. Remember, they did not write in modern-day English.

Again, let us define our terms.
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I am not trying to make a distinction between those words and I reject the attempt to obscure what the ECF said by implying that there are semantic issues here. I have made falsifiable claims that are not being addressed by showing where I misreading the ECFs.

I believe we are to overcome the “natural man” / “fallen man” through the atonement of Christ. So do all LDS (we generally lean EO and reject Augustine’s poor Greek induced "original sin ") . I am mostly Catholic in my view of sanctification / justification. Most LDS lean Catholic but some lean Protestant here.
As far as LDS leaders being better, this is a poor read of our theology. We regularly say that the Lord qualities who he calls not that some great person is called. That being said I am almost universally impressed by the leaders I have met.
So again whatever Christ is we are to become. Maybe Catholic thought raised up Christ beyond what the Bible and the early ECFs taught or maybe Catholic thought lowered the final gifts from God for deified man from what the Bible and the early ECFs taught, but that is what I see and believe. If you know a better translation of the Bible or the ECF we can discuss it, but I think that is just a distraction.
Charity, TOm
 
BTW my memory is Sainthood now 1 documented miracle. Still Devil’s Advocate. But this has not been an area of study for me.
 
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