A date for the "Great Apostasy"

[KathleenGee]

So Tom, there is hope for you yet.

Yes, you do have some Catholic beliefs, and you certainly don’t talk like Mormons. You present yourself more as a Catholic. And I do pick up your heart felt sentiments.

Yes, study Stage 6 of universalizing faith. James W Fowler. Then read the saints. Then see how humane they were in their acts of being humane but Christ living through them. They always gave glory to Christ. There are some who rose the dead back to life!

And check out the corpus of St. Bernadette…compare how she looks now…alive in heaven vs her pictures when she was alive…as she progressed in self-renunciation, embracing the Cross, recalling the visitation of the Blessed Mother, she became more beautiful in time…

The gift of contemplative prayers allows us to enter into His presence…we enter sacred ground through our souls…interior recollection…

But although the saints did great things through Christ, of Christ and for Christ and His glory, they only sought union with Him in the next life.

 

[KathleenGee]

Perfection does not exist in this life, only in the next.

And the caveat…when we are in heaven with the Lord, then there will be no more need.

So who will want to be a god then anyway…as it is written, in this life, you cannot face God and live.

 

[Holly3278]

In order for the “Great Apostasy” to be true, Jesus would have had to have been a liar which He most certainly was not. He was incapable of lying since He is God and God’s Son.

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”
(Matthew 28:18-20 RSV-CE)

If Jesus was going to be with us to the close of the age (end of the world) then it would be impossible for the Church to fall into total apostasy.

Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare’a Philip’pi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli’jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
(Matthew 16:13-19 RSV-CE)

Also, if a “great apostasy” occurred then the gates of Hell would have prevailed against the Church and Jesus Christ, the Son of God, promised us that this would never happen.

 

[kimg901]

I am not trying to make a distinction between those words and I reject the attempt to obscure what the ECF said by implying that there are semantic issues here. I have made falsifiable claims that are not being addressed by showing where I misreading the ECFs.

I believe we are to overcome the “natural man” / “fallen man” through the atonement of Christ. So do all LDS (we generally lean EO and reject Augustine’s poor Greek induced "original sin ") . I am mostly Catholic in my view of sanctification / justification. Most LDS lean Catholic but some lean Protestant here.
As far as LDS leaders being better, this is a poor read of our theology.** We regularly say that the Lord qualities who he calls not that some great person is called. That being said I am almost universally impressed by the leaders I have met.**
So again whatever Christ is we are to become. Maybe Catholic thought raised up Christ beyond what the Bible and the early ECFs taught or maybe Catholic thought lowered the final gifts from God for deified man from what the Bible and the early ECFs taught, but that is what I see and believe. If you know a better translation of the Bible or the ECF we can discuss it, but I think that is just a distraction.
Charity, TOm

So it is the quality of the person, yes? So does being a man with means qualify a person? Why are your prophets people that come from families with money? How come there are no poor people that are called to be bishops or prophets? What I mean by poor is those that dont pay a regular tithing or are not outstanding lds? This is just what I have seen in my 22 years here in Utah. I could be wrong.

 

[kimg901]

In order for the “Great Apostasy” to be true, Jesus would have had to have been a liar which He most certainly was not. He was incapable of lying since He is God and God’s Son.

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”
(Matthew 28:18-20 RSV-CE)

If Jesus was going to be with us to the close of the age (end of the world) then it would be impossible for the Church to fall into total apostasy.

Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare’a Philip’pi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli’jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
(Matthew 16:13-19 RSV-CE)

Also, if a “great apostasy” occurred then the gates of Hell would have prevailed against the Church and Jesus Christ, the Son of God, promised us that this would never happen.

We have said this before but its like talking to a brick wall. God/Jesus didnt think it through and no, He didnt lie, just made a mistake because God was once a man

 

[dberrie2000]

Do you want to follow Joseph Smith and his peeping hat and his spectacles and his Egyptian golden plates instructing how to bury the dead…

I would like to hear more about these “Egyptian golden plates instructing how to bury the dead”.

 

[Stephen168]

Could you explain to me what you mean here?
Thanks, TOm

In 1830, Joseph Smith started the Latter-Day-Saint Movement by making himself First Elder and Oliver Cowdery ‘Second Elder.’ They both claimed to be given the ‘Keys.’ Smith established the First Presidency, Jesse Gause*and Sidney Rigdon, to run the Church in 1832. This High Council was the chief judicial and legislative body of the church supervised by the First Presidency. The Presiding High Council was established in 1834 by the First Presidency. In 1835, Smith told Oliver Cowdery,Martin Harris, andDavid Whitmer,*to select the Twelve Apostles to head the missionary work of the Church. The first apostles were: Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Lyman E. Johnson, David W. Patten, Orson Hyde, William E. M’Lellin, Luke S. Johnson, William Smith, John F. Boynton, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt,**Thomas B. Marsh.
By the end of 1835, the Church was run by the Elders in the First Presidency who was over the Elders in the Presiding High Council who was over the Quorum of Twelve Apostles. ‘The Keys’ were held by the First Presidency three years before there were ‘Apostles;’ meaning at this point Key had nothing to do with being an apostle.
In 1837, thefailure of the Kirtland Safety Society, a bank founded by church leaders, led to widespread dissent.
In 1838, Thomas Marsh, Luke Johnson, Lyman Johnson, William M’Lellin, and John Boynton were excommunicated. And John Patten was killed. They were replaced by John Page, and John Taylor leaving the church with eight apostles.
In 1839 Wilford Woodruff, and George Smith were added to the Quorum of Twelve Apostles to make the total number ten.
In 1840, Willard Richards made the number of apostles eleven.
In 1841, Lyman Wight was added to restored the number of apostles to twelve.
In 1842 Orson Pratt was excommunicated and replaced by Amasa Lyman.
At the time of Joseph Smith’s death the First Presidency included: Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, and Sidney Rigdon. The head of the Presiding High Council was William Marks. The head of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was Brigham Young. After the Smith’s were killed, only Sidney Rigdon remained in the First Presidency.
As the member of the First Presidency (holder of the keys) Rigdon claimed to be guardian of the church and Apostle John Page and Elder William Marks supported him in that claim.
Brigham Young as the head Apostle claimed Joseph Smith was an Apostle and held the keys. Because Young was the head Apostle he claimed to replace Smith as the holder of the keys. This was the first time any Mormon thought of an Apostle as being a key holder.
The Church membership voted for Young, as leader of the third level church council, to lead the church; and raise the Quorum of Twelve Apostles over the Presiding High Council while taking over the First Presidency.
To summarize: Five years after the start of the Mormon Church, Smith invented the position of Apostle. The Quorum of Twelve Apostles ran the missionary effort of the church, not the whole church. The Apostles did not hold ‘the keys’ during Smith’s lifetime. The association of ‘keys’ with ‘apostles’ was an invention by Brigham Young to get control of the Church.

That is why I believe Joseph Smith never believed Apostles were required to have priesthood authority. St. Peter said the Apostles unique roll was to be a witness to the resurrection. Catholic Bishops have all the authority Christ gave to the Apostles.

 

[jrtrent]

In order for the “Great Apostasy” to be true, Jesus would have had to have been a liar . . .

As another poster pointed out, these ideas have come up in this thread. There is a way of interpreting the passages in Matthew that you cited that would preclude an apostasy, but there is more than one way to see those passages. No Christian group, regardless of their belief concerning a past apostasy of the church, teaches that Jesus was a liar. Below are a few excerpts and links from previous posts.

"In Matthew 28:20, the Greek has Jesus saying that he will be with the church until the end of the “aion” – which means “eon,” “epoch,” “age,” or “period.” We believe that Jesus was with His Church until the end of that dispensation. Then came the apostasy. But for those who follow Him in any age, He is always there. However, there are times when the truth is not found on earth - or when authorized prophets and apostles are absent. Such a time was predicted in Amos 8:11,12, referring to a coming age in which there will be a famine of truth. Fits the dark age of the Apostasy very well! That’s why there had to be a time of refreshing (Acts 3:19), to bring again that which was lost.

Remember, Christ is always with His followers, but that does not mean that they are always with Him. It was the rejection of Christ and His gospel in favor of worldly doctrines and practices that resulted in the Apostasy - this was not caused by Christ withdrawing from us, but the other way around." jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ…on.shtml#gates

The Mormon church does not say Christ failed, but that He, and the writers of scripture, predicted the apostasy. Here is the conclusion to an interesting article on this idea:

"As we have seen, the Lord knew, and his Apostles knew, that the Saints would turn away from the true faith that had been taught to them. We have seen also that it happened—slowly at first, but with increasing speed in each succeeding decade. And, as we have seen, with the rejection of true religion came the rejection of true authority as well. Concerning this, Elder Mark E. Petersen stated, “But this all had been predicted. The Lord foresaw this apostasy. As he would not perform further miracles before the unbelievers at Capernaum, neither would he leave his anointed Twelve in an apostate group. So John was taken from among men.”

With the last Apostle gone from the church, the night of apostasy was upon it; and so it would remain until the dawn of another day—the day of the Restoration." lds.org/ensign/1984/12/ea…f-the-apostasy

For more specifics on Mormon belief on the great apostasy, Talmage’s work is available to read online for free at this site: gutenberg.org/ebooks/35514

 

[lax16]

As another poster pointed out, these ideas have come up in this thread. There is a way of interpreting the passages in Matthew that you cited that would preclude an apostasy, but there is more than one way to see those passages. No Christian group, regardless of their belief concerning a past apostasy of the church, teaches that Jesus was a liar. Below are a few excerpts and links from previous posts.

Read Early Church History and you will see there was never a time when Christ left His Church.

"In Matthew 28:20, the Greek has Jesus saying that he will be with the church until the end of the “aion” – which means “eon,” “epoch,” “age,” or “period.” We believe that Jesus was with His Church until the end of that dispensation. Then came the apostasy. But for those who follow Him in any age, He is always there. However, there are times when the truth is not found on earth - or when authorized prophets and apostles are absent. Such a time was predicted in Amos 8:11,12, referring to a coming age in which there will be a famine of truth. Fits the dark age of the Apostasy very well! That’s why there had to be a time of refreshing (Acts 3:19), to bring again that which was lost.

Aeon
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The word aeon (pron.: /ˈiːɒn/), also spelt eon, originally means “life” and/or “being”, though it then tended to mean “age”, “forever” or “for eternity”. It is a Latin transliteration from the koine Greek word ὁ αἰών (ho aion), from the archaic αἰϝών (aiwon). In Homer it typically refers to life or lifespan. Its latest meaning is more or less similar to the Sanskrit word kalpa and Hebrew word olam. A cognate Latin word aevum or aeuum (cf. αἰϝών) for “age” is present in words such as longevity and mediæval.[1]
Although the term aeon may be used in reference to a period of a billion years (especially in geology, cosmology or astronomy), its more common usage is for any long, indefinite, period. Aeon can also refer to the four aeons on the Geologic Time Scale that make up the Earth’s history, the Hadean, Archean, Proterozoic, and the current aeon Phanerozoic.

Remember, Christ is always with His followers, but that does not mean that they are always with Him. It was the rejection of Christ and His gospel in favor of worldly doctrines and practices that resulted in the Apostasy - this was not caused by Christ withdrawing from us, but the other way around." jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ…on.shtml#gates

From my LDS missionary booklet:
“With the death of the Apostles of Jesus Christ, the truth was lost once again”.
“Good people and much truth remained, but the gospel **as established by Jesus Christ **was lost.”

The Mormon church does not say Christ failed, but that He, and the writers of scripture, predicted the apostasy. Here is the conclusion to an interesting article on this idea:

"As we have seen, the Lord knew, and his Apostles knew, that the Saints would turn away from the true faith that had been taught to them. We have seen also that it happened—slowly at first, but with increasing speed in each succeeding decade. And, as we have seen, with the rejection of true religion came the rejection of true authority as well. Concerning this, Elder Mark E. Petersen stated, “But this all had been predicted. The Lord foresaw this apostasy. As he would not perform further miracles before the unbelievers at Capernaum, neither would he leave his anointed Twelve in an apostate group. So John was taken from among men.”

From the booklet:
“The Apostles were killed, and priesthood authority-including the keys to direct and receive revelation for the Church-was taken from the earth.”

So, if the ability to receive revelation was taken from the earth, why do Mormons use the Bible?

With the last Apostle gone from the church, the night of apostasy was upon it; and so it would remain until the dawn of another day—the day of the Restoration." lds.org/ensign/1984/12/ea…f-the-apostasy

The last apostle,John, is still around according to Mormons, right?

 

[jrtrent]

Read Early Church History and you will see there was never a time when Christ left His Church. . .

As a former Mormon, I am not trying to convince you that their interpretations are correct. I was only responding to the idea that anyone who believes in the great apostasy is teaching that Jesus was a liar. Mormons do not teach that Jesus was a liar; they simply have a different understanding of the passages in Matthew that Holly3278 made reference to.

 

[TOmNossor]

In 1830, Joseph Smith started the Latter-Day-Saint Movement by making himself First Elder and Oliver Cowdery ‘Second Elder.’ They both claimed to be given the ‘Keys.’ Smith established the First Presidency, Jesse Gause*and Sidney Rigdon, to run the Church in 1832. This High Council was the chief judicial and legislative body of the church supervised by the First Presidency. The Presiding High Council was established in 1834 by the First Presidency. In 1835, Smith told Oliver Cowdery,Martin Harris, andDavid Whitmer,*to select the Twelve Apostles to head the missionary work of the Church. The first apostles were: Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Lyman E. Johnson, David W. Patten, Orson Hyde, William E. M’Lellin, Luke S. Johnson, William Smith, *John F. Boynton, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt,**Thomas B. Marsh.

By the end of 1835, the Church was run by the Elders in the First Presidency who was over the Elders in the Presiding High Council who was over the Quorum of Twelve Apostles. ‘The Keys’ were held by the First Presidency three years before there were ‘Apostles;’ meaning at this point Key had nothing to do with being an apostle.
In 1837, the*failure of the Kirtland Safety Society, a bank founded by church leaders, led to widespread dissent.
In 1838, Thomas Marsh, Luke Johnson, Lyman Johnson, William M’Lellin, and John Boynton were excommunicated. And John Patten was killed. They were replaced by John Page, and John Taylor leaving the church with eight apostles.
In 1839 Wilford Woodruff, and George Smith were added to the Quorum of Twelve Apostles to make the total number ten.
In 1840, Willard Richards made the number of apostles eleven.
In 1841, Lyman Wight was added to restored the number of apostles to twelve.
In 1842 Orson Pratt was excommunicated and replaced by Amasa Lyman.
At the time of Joseph Smith’s death the First Presidency included: Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, and Sidney Rigdon. The head of the Presiding High Council was William Marks. The head of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was Brigham Young. After the Smith’s were killed, only Sidney Rigdon remained in the First Presidency.
As the member of the First Presidency (holder of the keys) Rigdon claimed to be guardian of the church and Apostle John Page and Elder William Marks supported him in that claim.
Brigham Young as the head Apostle claimed Joseph Smith was an Apostle and held the keys. Because Young was the head Apostle he claimed to replace Smith as the holder of the keys. This was the first time any Mormon thought of an Apostle as being a key holder.
The Church membership voted for Young, as leader of the third level church council, to lead the church; and raise the Quorum of Twelve Apostles over the Presiding High Council while taking over the First Presidency.
To summarize: Five years after the start of the Mormon Church, Smith invented the position of Apostle. The Quorum of Twelve Apostles ran the missionary effort of the church, not the whole church. The Apostles did not hold ‘the keys’ during Smith’s lifetime. The association of ‘keys’ with ‘apostles’ was an invention by Brigham Young to get control of the Church.

That is why I believe Joseph Smith never believed Apostles were required to have priesthood authority. St. Peter said the Apostles unique roll was to be a witness to the resurrection. Catholic Bishops have all the authority Christ gave to the Apostles.
I understand what you are referring too now. I am assuming that most of that comes from Origins of Power by D. Michael Quinn. It has been a while since I have read this, but I would say that originally the Apostles were “sent out.” When they returned from England they began a role that combined the Jerusalem Apostles and the “sent out” Apostles role. I think this was about 1835.
It is definitely true that there was not clarity at Joseph’s death as to who would lead. It is not as clear as LDS typically claim it to be when we point to 1835 and 1831 revelations. It is not as clear as RLDS once claimed when they point to Joseph Smith III’s blessing. I do not think it so foggy as to say that the Apostles were not understood to hold keys for leading the church as early as 1835 long before Joseph’s death.
Anyway, I had not seen it expressed that way. Thanks.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

So it is the quality of the person, yes? So does being a man with means qualify a person? Why are your prophets people that come from families with money? How come there are no poor people that are called

to be bishops or prophets? What I mean by poor is those that dont pay a regular tithing or are not outstanding lds? This is just what I have seen in my 22 years here in Utah. I could be wrong.
I am actually trying to say precisely the opposite.
I tried to type, “the Lord qualifies who He calls not that some great person is called.”
I think you got much of that even with the wrong word.
Anyway, what it means is that it is not a person’s greatness that results in His call rather it is God’s ability to use the person.
Moses claimed to not be a great speaker and was with God’s help.
Paul on the other hand was amazing in many ways (not the least of which was his position as a Roman Citizen). Still he had a “thorn in the flesh.”

I believe that as we humble ourselves and follow God two conflicting things occur. One is we have success as we do the Lord’s will. Two we become ready for greater trials as we move closer to God (usually or at least often those trials appear as failure -the opposite of success).

So, I would say most of the folks I know in leadership positions in the church are very capable folks and have had great success outside of their church callings. There are possible exceptions. My first bishop ever was a janitor and my current bishop is a fireman. Both are/where amazing men, but they were in no danger of breaking into the Forbes 500. The Stake President before my current SP started as a delivery person moving appliances for an appliance retailer. Of course he became quite successful so his humble beginnings probably would not be noticed by those looking in from the outside.

I am pretty sure Elder Packer is not a rich man.

When I said that “I was almost universally impressed by the leaders I had met,” I wasn’t thinking about their financial or worldly success. And I was not referring to the positions they had obtained in the church. It was really the care and compassion I observed coming from them in the exercise of their callings, and their love and care for their families. These are men I admire. My wife assures me she has knowledge of a Bishop from her youth with whom I might find fault. But the monstrosities I read about on the Internet perhaps belong to a church of which I am not a member.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Making oneself a God, is a sham and idolatry. There isn’t a way around it. Catholic teaching has never been otherwise.

Here we entirely agree!
There is not “self-deification” in LDS thought.
Isolated from other teachings on our total dependence upon Christ (and even the BOM that says that we receive breath moment by moment from God), one could try to paint LDS as ones who believe we are the cause of our godhood. Such is not a good read of LDS thought and one I reject.
Chrarity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

The limit to deification (becoming gods) is God. Through Christ we share in the divine nature, which is eternal life. Christ took away the sins of the world and over came death. With eternal life we can see God.

Is this what Joseph Smith and Lorenzo Snow taught?
Your two quotes refer to the initial not the final state of man.
When you ask if Joseph Smith or Lorenzo Snow taught that God created ex Nihilo, I would say that no they did not teach that.
Earlier I pointed to Gerard May (non LDS scholar) who shows (well IMO) that creation ex nihilo was a later development. May actually thinks it is a necessary development.
Irenaeus by my recollection was the first to really get to creation ex nihilo. I think May says he is close but not all the way there, but it has been many years.
I will try to post some deification quotes since I am at my computer now.

If the “limit to deification (becoming gods) is God” why do you claim limited deification. Is it because God does not desire to deify us? Is it because he lacks the power to deify us? I agree that ultimately it is God who is responsible for all of this, what about God makes you believe He wants to limit us?

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Justin **- 1st Ap. **And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue.(ANF 1.170).

---

**Justin - Dial. 124 **…thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming “gods”, and of having power to become sons of the Highest.(ANF 1.262).

**Justin - Discourse To The Greeks 5 **The Word exercises an influence which does not make poets: it does not equip philosophers nor skilled orators, but by its instruction it makes mortals immortal, mortals god. (ANF 1.272)

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 3.6.1 “God stood in the in the congregation of the gods, He judges among the gods.” He [here] refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption; but these are the Church. (ANF 1.419).

**Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 3.19.1 **He who was the Son of God became the Son of man, that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God. For by no other means could we have attained to incorruptibility and immortality, unless we had been united to incorruptibility and immortality.(ANF 1.448). [See also 3.6.1]

**Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.Pref.4/ 4.1.1 **…there is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption. Since, therefore, this is sure and steadfast, that no other God or Lord was announced by the Spirit, except Him who, as God, rules over all, together with His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption.(ANF 1.463).

**Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.33.4 **… how can they be saved unless it was God who wrought out their salvation upon earth? Or how shall man pass into God, unless God has [first] passed into man?(ANF 1.507).

**Irenaeus - Adv. 4.20.4 Now this is His Word, our Lord Jesus Christ, who in the last times was made a man among men, that He might join the end to the beginning, that is, man to God.(ANF 1.488).[see also 4.20.5-6]
**Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.38.3-4 **His wisdom [is shown] in His having made created things parts of one harmonious and consistent whole; and those things which, through His super-eminent kindness, receive growth and a long period of existence, do reflect the glory of the uncreated One, of that God who bestows what is good ungrudgingly. For from the very fact of these things having been created, [it follows] that they are not uncreated; but by their continuing in being throughout a long course of ages, they shall receive a faculty of the Uncreated, through the gratuitous bestowal of eternal existence upon them by God. …man, a created and organized being, is rendered after the image and likeness of the uncreated God… we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods…He shall overcome the substance of created nature. For it was necessary, at first, that nature should be exhibited; then, after that, that what was mortal should be conquered and swallowed up by immortality, and the corruptible by incorruptibility, and that man should be made after the image and likeness of God, having received the knowledge of good and evil.(ANF 1.521-522).

**Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.39.2 **How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that thou, at the outset, shouldest hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For thou dost not make God, but God thee. If, then, thou art God’s workmanship, await the hand of the Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as thou art concerned, whose creation is being carried out.(ANF 1.522-523).

**Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.Pref **…the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself.(ANF 1.526).

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.1.1 Since the Lord thus has redeemed us through His own blood, giving His soul for our souls, and His flesh for our flesh, and has also poured out the Spirit of the Father for the union and communion of God and man, imparting indeed God to men by means of the Spirit, and, on the other hand, attaching man to God by His own incarnation, and bestowing upon us at His coming immortality durably and truly, by means of communion with God…(ANF 1.527).[see also **5.36.3]

 

[TOmNossor]

**Theophilus - To Autolycus 27 **Was man made by nature mortal? Certainly not. Was he, then, immortal? Neither do we affirm this. …He was by nature neither mortal nor immortal. For if He had made him immortal from the beginning, He would have made him God. … keeping the commandment of God, he should receive as a reward from Him immortality, and should become God.(ANF 2.105).
**Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation 1 **…the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God.(ANF 2.174).

**Clement of Alexandria - The Instructor 3.1 **It is then, as appears, the greatest of al lessons to know one’s self. For if one know himself, he will know God; and knowing God, he will be made like God…But that man with whom the Word dwells does not alter himself, does not get himself up: he has the form which is of the Word; he is made like to God…and that man becomes God, since God so wills. Heraclitus, then, rightly said, “Men are gods, and gods are men.”(ANF 2.271).

Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 4.23 On this wise it is possible for the [true] Gnostic already to have become God. “I said, Ye are gods, and sons of the highest.” (ANF 2.437).

**Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 6.14 **By thus receiving the Lord’s power, the soul studies to be God; …To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord himself taught.(ANF 2.506).

**Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 7.10 **…they are called by the appellation of gods, being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Saviour.(ANF 2.539).

Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 7.13 What, then, shall we say of the [true] Gnostic himself? “Know ye not”, says the apostle, “that ye are the temple of God?” The [true] Gnostic is consequently divine, and already holy, God-bearing and God-borne. (ANF 2.547).

**Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 7.16 **But he who has returned from this deception, on hearing the Scriptures, and turned his life to the truth, is, as it were, from being a man made a god.(ANF 2.551)

**Tertullian - Adv. Hermogenes 5 **Well, then, you say, we ourselves possess nothing of God. But indeed we do, and shall continue to do—only it is from Him that we receive it, and not from ourselves. For we shall be even gods, if we shall deserve to be among those of whom He declared, “I have said, Ye are gods,” and “God standeth in the congregation of the gods.” But this comes of His own grace, not from any property in us, because it is He alone who can make gods.(ANF 3.480).

**Tertullian - Adv. Marcion 25 **Now, although Adam was by reason of his condition under law subject to death, yet was hope preserved to him by the Lord’s saying, “Behold, Adam is become as one of us;” that is, in consequence of the future taking of the man into the divine nature.(ANF 3.317).

Tertullian - Adv. Hermogenes 5 Well, then, you say, we ourselves at that rate possess nothing of God. But indeed we do, and shall continue to do—only it is from Him that we receive it, and not from ourselves. For we shall be even gods, if we shall deserve to be among those of whom He declared, “I have said, Ye are gods,” and “God standeth in the congregation of the gods.” But this comes of His own grace, not from any property in us, because it is He alone who can make gods. (ANF 3.480).

 

[lax16]

As a former Mormon, I am not trying to convince you that their interpretations are correct. I was only responding to the idea that anyone who believes in the great apostasy is teaching that Jesus was a liar. Mormons do not teach that Jesus was a liar; they simply have a different understanding of the passages in Matthew that Holly3278 made reference to.

jrtrent - If Jesus wasn’t able to keep his Church together, as promised, that makes him a liar. Mormons teach that Jesus wasn’t able to keep his Church together, therefore…

Mormons have the understanding that is spoon fed to them by those who spin things the way they want.

I realize that you are a former Mormon, and although you say you are not trying to convince me that their interpretations are correct, you provided two links to show their point of view.
You also provided the Mormon definition of aeon.

Joseph Smith says:

“Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet…When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go.” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)

 

[TOmNossor]

So Tom, there is hope for you yet.

Yes, you do have some Catholic beliefs, and you certainly don’t talk like Mormons. You present yourself more as a Catholic. And I do pick up your heart felt sentiments.

Yes, study Stage 6 of universalizing faith. James W Fowler. Then read the saints. Then see how humane they were in their acts of being humane but Christ living through them. They always gave glory to Christ. There are some who rose the dead back to life!

And check out the corpus of St. Bernadette…compare how she looks now…alive in heaven vs her pictures when she was alive…as she progressed in self-renunciation, embracing the Cross, recalling the visitation of the Blessed Mother, she became more beautiful in time…

The gift of contemplative prayers allows us to enter into His presence…we enter sacred ground through our souls…interior recollection…

But although the saints did great things through Christ, of Christ and for Christ and His glory, they only sought union with Him in the next life.
I am not sure what I said that caused you to have renewed hope.
I do believe that if you think I believe half the things exmormons claimed they believed when they left the church, you would have much reason to have little hope. I do not defend the church exmormons left, I defend the church I belong to. I find these are often VERY different.
Did you read through Stendahl’s 3 rules for interfaith dialogue?
Have you sat at the feet of excatholics and heard about the church they left?

I read Fowler. I thought I had posted extensively on it here, but I only found this:
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3426010&highlight=Fowler#post3426010
I know I can remember being in Stage 2, Stage 3, and Stage 4. I know I have less “pain” then when I was in Stage 4. I know I have (and posted about them on this thread) universalizing thoughts. Still, I do not claim to be Stage 5 or Stage 6. I am here explaining why the CoJCoLDS is God’s church of course.
Charity, TOm

 

[LongJourney]

I know I can remember being in Stage 2, Stage 3, and Stage 4. I know I have less “pain” then when I was in Stage 4. I know I have (and posted about them on this thread) universalizing thoughts. Still, I do not claim to be Stage 5 or Stage 6.

Given the number of LDS who are stuck in their spiritual development your time might be better spent in working with them, than posting here. Just a suggestion.

 

[KathleenGee]

Tom,

I just wrote a big answer to yours and it didn’t go through and we now have to go out to cut down a tree.

If you want to read a saint, try a woman saint, St. Catherine of Siena…‘The Dialogues’, and the book on ‘Holy Church’…it is within the Dialogues. She is very thorough in separating creature from God. And she instills holy fear, by golly, she verbally whipped the ecclesiastics during the Catholic internal schism. She is pretty scary reading and a very strong woman…Wish Mormons could value women more, and Mother Mary even more. Whew.

What the long list of philosphers and teachers were referring to was after living in this world of darkness, paganism, oppression, and Original Sin, being converted to Christ was a tremendous experience…it is about context.

In those days, people lay down their lives for Christ as martyrs and never wanted to go back as the former in a world like that.

The first essence of new faith in Christ is : Life, not death. Period. Think about it. In Christ, they experienced new life.

This New Life gave them joy, peace, and they discovered another thing…How Christ loved them more than any human being could! They found the new meaning in their lives: It was that Christ loved them. They were no longer slaves to men but had new freedom in life in Christ. Tom, if you think you will become some kind of god some day, you will never be able to do this.

Furthermore, this new life in Christ not only reconnected themselves to themselves and made them experience the goodness and sacredness of their own humanity because God made them, they were also freed from this culture of slavery and isolation.

Life in Christ made one whole, in spite of the pagan idolatry and sin of others around them, they nevertheless, through Christ, felt in communion with the world around them, perceiving nevertheless truth of God in creation and beauty. Christ within us removes the shackles from our eyes, and we can see His works in and around us, and it is truthful and beautiful. Tom, you and I on our own cannot do this and never will.

Christ takes away all need when we seek full communion with Him, and we are most aware of His love for us, His life giving our lives meaning. The world cannot do it. Men cannot do this. Pagan gods couldn’t do it, and you won’t ever either.

When we are in Christ in contemplative prayer, wherever we are, we are connected to everything around us, we feel no poverty, but share in the ownership of everything through God!!! Tom, you won’t be able to do this to people.

And in Christ, they experienced as never before in how Christ loved them, the new value they had, no longer slaves but friends of Christ!!! That is tremendous. And we know, Tom, sinful people that we are, will not be able to do this.

New life, Love, peace, that surpassed all understanding. No human being could do this or give this, only Christ.

To be united to Christ, the living face of God, gave new meaning to one’s humanity.

Christ made us more human. How many times we hear the word, ‘humanitarian’ rather than a godly person. A humanitarian person is many times godly.

How we must seek to image Christ!

Yesterday was the feast of the Holy Innocents who were murdered because they were boys and 2 years old, and in their innocence combined, they resembled Christ. So Herod killed them as a means to kill the Christ Child.

They were killed, they were sacrificed because they resembled Christ. We cannot do this if we want our broken humanity that cannot give life, we cannot give Christ if the focus is on ourselves.

Think of all the martyrs who were sacrificed because they rejected the world and all its wealth and honors and works to instead be in communion with the Lord and His new life.

St. Michael said, ‘Who is like unto God!’ And all the quotes I gave last pm on the link regarding the Holy Trinity, St. Justin the Martyr, St. Ireneaus, etc. spoke of ONE GOD.

We partake in the divine life as adopted sons and daughters but we are always separate as creatures. Why then celebrate Christmas if you think you will be a god like Christ some day?

Reflecting St. Catherine of Siena, she explains as well the nature of the Catholic Priesthood, and how they administer to us the Blood of Christ, irregardless of their own sins, and how we can never pay God back for such life. We can only ‘pay back’ our priests by prayer and penance for them because they are the ones who are the devil’s biggest targets.

It is Catherine who said, ‘Who Christ is and who we are not’, and that we come to the Father over the Bridge of the Crucified Lord, but underneath is the river of Satan, and we fall into it through our own pride selfish self will. How we must pray constantly to the Lord for continued union and life in Him, because the road to hell is wide and easy, but the Kingdom of Christ is the Pearl of Great Price, many are called but few chosen…

And in more reflection of the Sacraments, no Mormon can give us the Blood of Christ. The Seat of Peter the papacy, holds the Keys to the Blood of Christ. We are now getting into new ground and as Mormons don’t read Catholic saints, they don’t know how much more spiritual wealth is out there besides the discipline of teaching and philosophy.

The Catholic saints are those who live on the 6th level, the univeralizing faith.

That is why we say for 2,000 years, we believe in One, Holy, Catholic/Universal and apostolic faith.