A date for the "Great Apostasy"

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No I didn’t read Stahl’s…Groome took from Fowler though.

I like Fowler because he ended up pretty realistic…we don’t love Christ enough, we love ourselves more. We want it easy. The way to heaven is difficult and riches keep us from perfection…

Go get Catherine’s book, be adventurous, read a woman saint!!! She is pretty tough and sobering.
 
TOmNossor said:
Your two quotes refer to the initial not the final state of man.
When you ask if Joseph Smith or Lorenzo Snow taught that God created ex Nihilo, I would say that no they did not teach that.
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No, my first quote was about the final state of man as taught by St. Irenaeus. It also included a Christian progression of man to the final state. My question was “did Smith and Snow teach what Irenaeus taught?”
TOmNossor said:
If the “limit to deification (becoming gods) is God” why do you claim limited deification. Is it because God does not desire to deify us? Is it because he lacks the power to deify us? I agree that ultimately it is God who is responsible for all of this, what about God makes you believe He wants to limit us?
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God is uncreated. He created man (Adam and Eve) as sinless beings who had eternal life and able see God; they were gods. They sinned against God and brought death and sin upon mankind. God humbled himself and became man. Christ took away the sins of the world and over came death. This gives mankind the opportunity to become gods just like Adam and Eve were gods; with eternal life we can see our creator, God.

The limit to deification (becoming gods) is God. God is uncreated and everything else is created. Part of the divine nature is eternal life. We will share/participate in God’s nature but we will never be God.

I believe this is a brief general explanation of divination as taught by the early church fathers.

What did the early Mormon Church mean by “becoming gods?” What does the current Mormon Church mean by becoming gods?
TOmNossor said:
I agree that ultimately it is God who is responsible for all of this, what about God makes you believe He wants to limit us?
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Your question hits my ears as: Can God make a stone too heavy for him to lift?
 
Tom: God limiting us?..

Answer: Try to become a Catholic saint.

Not Mormon saints because every member is an automatic saint for rejecting Christ’s Catholic Church.

No, check out the saints of the universal Church…ours…

As Stephen pointed out, you are bypassing intent and context of early Church Fathers. They in no way ever taught us to become gods.

We are called to become Christlike…loving, kind, serving, but not on our power but through Christ’s by shunning the world, praying constantly, and associating with the poor and powerless.
 
And we cannot become gods because Christ already ‘beat us to it’.

He is the one Who has already given the world new life and the reality that, let’s reflect how a slave in ancient Rome might react to new life in Him

…‘I am no more a slave to some one’s lust. Diseased as I am, a Roman sex slave at the age of 18, now with my faith in Jesus, I am alive!..Jesus brought Lazarus back from the dead…and now I am brought back from death to be alive in Jesus Christ!’

‘and I am now new and young and most of all – my life is sacred and holy and pure, – pure and innocence and clean because of Jesus and my baptism into Him…Jesus Christ, my Messiah and Redeemer, irregardless of how my master abuses me. My body is now sacred and I do not want him to ever touch me again.’

‘Kill me if he wants, throw me to the beasts in the public arena, where all the killing of gladiators and animals and innocent people in the hot Roman sun fill the Coliseum with the stench of death as humid evening arrives…Let them throw me to the beasts and let me be in union with my Savior…I want to be with Him and to know His love, I want to sit as John did, my head on Christ’s hearat, I want to be with Him in Paradise just as the Good Thief is…no more debauchery, no more molestation…my body is sacred, my soul is united with God for He has saved me and adopted me as His own…’

This is the reality of being an adopted son and daughter of God is what the ancients spoke about and proclaim and the reason so many of them died for faith in Christ.

Where are the Mormon martyrs?

www.Bibleprobe.com has the complete diary of the forthcoming martyrdom of SS Perpetua and Felicity and Saturn…Subtitle on Left, Catechecombs…(spelling)…

I read it and it was so brilliant that it was like watching a movie…it happened in Carthage, Northern Africa, around 200 AD.

The Apostles were living on the level of universalizing faith, aka James W Fowler, who sacrificed themselves for the cause of Jesus Christ. They wrote most clearly, simply, and their words and testimony brought countless people to the faith.

Today we hear the same Gospel and Epistles…so simple, yet livid, most alive…and easy to understand.

Yes, those who listened to the Apostles, who were called to be consecrated in truth and spirit were fully capable of following them, and progressing in building up the establishing Church.

Jesus Christ is perfect and totally capable of selecting the right men who were in turn, capable of passing on their testimony of faith on to every generation.

Neither I, or Tom, or LW, or any other person, in spite of our best intentions, will ever be equal to Jesus Christ and be able to create life by being ‘perfect’ in this world, to become another god in the next.

Jesus Christ has already accomplished His mission through His life and teachings, death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven.
 
Another concern I have, and St. Catherine helped me understand this, is the problem of us taking scandal at the behavior of Catholic priests. It has been most embarrassing for me in 2003 to let people know I was a Catholic with all the screaming headlines across the country.

Alot of priests didn’t even know these things were happening. Some were afraid to even wear their Roman collar in public.

This part was the final purgation of the work of Satan in the Church…who was given 100 years to destroy the Church, and how Pope Leo XIII consecrated the world to the Sacred Heart of Jesus in 1899, soon after his inner locution of this coming of evil, that coincided with so much mass murders by communism and 2 world wars in the 20th century.

As John Paul II said, in this century we will witness a new springtime of evangelization for Christianity. Perhaps, events in the world will hasten people or push them back into the heart of God.

But we must never allow another person to cause us to fall by looking at their bad example. If we keep our focus on the bad example of some Catholic priests or Catholic young people, we are likewise taking our eyes off of Christ, are now blinding ourselves to the good that is lived out by good priests and good Catholic young people.

If we allow to take our eyes off of Christ, when we take scandal of certain Catholics, we are likewise falling into hypocritical false judgement. When we pass false judgment on people, we are likewise taking ourselves away from the path that leads to heaven. We are assuming we are better…

And going back to the reflections of St. Thomas A Kempis, we are directed to stay lowly and humble and to not even be attached to the good we do, because all good does not come from us but from God alone.
 
LongJourney said:
Given the number of LDS who are stuck in their spiritual development your time might be better spent in working with them, than posting here. Just a suggestion.
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That is an idea. When I first started posting on boards I primarily posted at ZLMB. these folks knew way more than I did. Then when I thought to venture out the main exmormon outlet tolerated absolutely 0 promormon posts. They still do not.
I came by my Catholic thoughts honestly in that I was genuinely seeking. Now, I still find value in some Catholic perspectives, but I more concern myself with what I consider to be a gross characterization of the COJCOLDS.
I do know of some places.
BTW if you are not familiar with Fowler, it is my guess that Mormons are more likely to get to stage 4 and either retreat to stage 3 (perhaps as an Atheist or even a Catholic and perhaps as a LDS) or get past stage 4. Also, Fowler offers only one adult stage 2 Christian and she was a Catholic lady who never felt she could approach God except through icons of saints.
Anyway, I will look at that. Why do you think Mormons woukd be retarded on the Stages of Faith progression.
Charity, TOm
 
Issue is that new Mormons completely disregard 150 years of initial and developmental Mormon thoughts and practice, and ironically spend more time on our early Church Fathers…again, not utilizing history and context to read what they really said.

Well, it is good having you here, Tom…

And no, I don’t know much about the Mormon branch you are in…to me, though, they all came from Joseph Smith, etc.
 
Anyway, I will look at that. Why do you think Mormons would be retarded on the Stages of Faith progression.
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I think you would need to contact an internet character who goes by the name of Consiglieri. He posts here. He is a good guy, and definitely LDS, but a cut above the rest. He could give you an insider’s scoop.

Personally for Utahan LDS, I think it is a multi-generational thing affecting family culture, going back to the abuses of Brigham Young. Paranoia about the consequences of stepping outside of the Mormon way of thinking. As a neverMo, raised in an area historically significant to Mormons, I can understand those negative cultural twists.

Yeah, Kathleen, Tom didn’t experience those things growing up, and doesn’t understand the history. It got really nasty at times.
 
TOmNossor said:
I understand what you are referring too now. I am assuming that most of that comes from Origins of Power by D. Michael Quinn.
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If it does, I didn’t get it there. It was my own research and conclusion. But I’m sure I’m not the first to come to that conclusion
 
About deification, Mormonism is centered on that and the concept of progression.

The Catholic’s temptation and sin is to make claim to Christ’s work within us. Priests tell me when they administer the sacraments and see alot of good coming into a person’s life, they get tempted thinking they caused it, when in fact it was the faith of the person drawing on Christ in His sacrament.

So our temptation is to want to become a god and take credit or think we are the ones in control and doing the change, when it is the will of the penitent open to Christ.
 
dberrie2000 said:
I would like to hear more about these “Egyptian golden plates instructing how to bury the dead”.
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This video, about 10 minutes long, attests to the Book of Abraham being totally made up, with JS mis-translating Egyptian Papyri…completely. If you can not trust him on the BoA, then you can not trust him on the Book of Mormon and translating golden plates (there’s other reasons to disbelieve the BoM as well). The Mormon church has known about the BoA mistakes for many, many years now. :eek:

youtube.com/watch?v=lvdqiTOf0PA
 
batman1973 said:
centerplace.org/Default.asp?CTUrl=http://www.centerplace.org/library/articles/FryEvan_WhatWasLostInTheApostasy.pdf&CTTitle=What%20Was%20Lost%20In%20The%20Apostasy%20-%20Evan%20Fry

Maybe we could swing this back on topic of the Apostasy?
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Brother Bat,

My previous comment on the Book of Abraham being total fiction…is relevant to the discussion. Mormons are saying “Trust Me”, Joseph Smith is telling the truth…so a Great Apostasy is to be believed. My response is …is the author trustworthy? What is the evidence?

Answer is a clear “no”, he can not be trusted all the way around.
  • His character…no…said he could find hidden water, hidden treasure, adultery, polygamy, married 14 year olds.
  • The Book Of Abraham…no…Egyptian papyrus translation is total fabrication as language science has shown.
  • The Book Of Mormon…no…historical evidence…there is none…as archeological science has shown…and American Indians are from Asia as genetic science has shown.
So on a great apostasy, which has no support in history just babble and conjecture, we can see clearly the Words of scripture in which Christ established a church, to protect until the end of time, a church that he sent the Holy Spirit, to guide it in all Truth…and we can see that in response, this church grew greatly, “guided by the Spirit”.

So my question is… can a Church being “guided by the Spirit” in all Truth, Protected by Jesus himself until the end of time, go into a great apostasy?

(footnote: Bat is not my brother by blood, but someone mis-reading this post 2,000 years from now may think that he was)
 
Agree with Porknpie here…you take down the apostasy, then there is no grounds for Mormonism…but it is amazing how people will continue to believe in such…a very different mindset…and I would think so anyway…

I have seen Catholics win debates here so many times, but it isn’t even recognized…

So it is very hard to explain to them as it is their belief system.

A protestant minister shared with us he was among Mormon men for about 2 years, and every single one had a different take on what Mormonism was to him…it is all for exaltation…of self…to become equal to God because God was once a man.

As seen from one of the posts here on the thread, it is about acquiring power in the next life through kingdoms, dominions, etc…but beyond that they are not defined.

In our heaven, we will have no need but God and communion with all there, nothing to do with self-exaltation or power or acquisitions.
 
batman1973 said:
Maybe we could swing this back on topic of the Apostasy?
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Here is a little Mormon parable about the apostasy which seems to have happened in 570AD.
Times and Season Vol 6:
A PARABLE.
There was a day when a certain great king [God] proposed a marriage for his son [Jesus Christ], prepared a dinner, and proffered to bequeath to his son one of his provinces, on the day of the marriage.-The woman [Christ’s Church] that was to be the bride was very fair and beautiful, her adorning was that of a crown with twelve precious diamonds [Apostles] set there and placed upon her head, holding in her hand a reflecting rod, by which the bright rays of the sun was brought to reflect upon the diamonds, giving light both day and night, so that she walked not in the dark, but as in the light of the noon-day sun, to guide her steps. Her features were fair and comely, decked with virtue, innocence, and loving kindness, administering to all who came under her care; she surpassed all women in wisdom, in faith, and other like precious gifts and graces. The surrounding neighborhood, together with the inhabitants of said province, looked upon her with jealousy and waged war against her and her intended espousal, and treated them as their worst enemies and succeeded in banishing the king’s son from his province, which caused the woman to mourn with a great and grievous mourning until she was comforted by tidings from the great king, who promised to bring back his son again, and (seeing his dinner was despised) he would prepare a supper [the gospel], and invite all the inhabitants of the province to come to the marriage supper of his son, and that his son should be made king over the whole province, and that he would cause the rod of iron which was in the bride’s hand to reflect light over all the kingdoms in the province, as this son was the legal heir; and the different kingdoms should become the kingdoms of his son.
This glorious news gave encouragement to the intended bride and enabled her to stand firm through many hard battles; at last the emperor of the nation that was warring with the woman, changed his course and proclaimed peace. The emperor [Catholic Church] by this means hoped to become in possession of the rod of iron, which seemed to be destined to rule all nations; the woman now was overpowered and was embraced in the emperor’s arms, and at this critical moment the king himself stepped forward just as the woman was ready to deliver up her authority to the emperor, and took the rod out of her hand and carried it home to his own dominions and rescued the woman out of the emperor’s hands, and secreted her in a neighboring woods, that her life might be preserved. This enraged the disappointed emperor with madness and revenge; he renewed the war, declared his greatness, claiming that he had received from the woman all the authority of the king’s son, putting to death all who dared to deny his assertion. The woman wandered in the wilderness for many days, lost the diamonds out of her crown and being destitute of the reflecting rod, she lay dormant in the wilderness; or in other words asleep, having nothing but the pale rays of the moon to guide her feet. She mourned, she wept, she lamented her untimely widowhood, longing for the return of her banished husband; in all this she was some comforted, waiting with hope and listening with great anxiety to hear the glad news, behold, the bridegroom cometh, go ye out to meet him, put on thy former apparel and prepare thyself for the completion of the marriage; and all those who refuse this my second and last invitation, shall not taste of my supper; this glad news for her was promised to be declared by a messenger from the king who was to bring back the reflecting rod, and all its attending beauties, authorizing the same to be proclaimed to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, saying, with a loud voice, fear the great king for he is about to execute judgment upon all the rebels.
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A little Q&A about the parable
Times and Seasons Vol. 6 pg 858:
Q.-4. Who banished the king’s son?
A.-The Jews.

Q.-5. Who put to death the woman’s friends?
A.-The Roman Church.

Q.-6. What was the rod?
A.-It was the power and priesthood after the holy order of the son of God, which the church had; and was delivered of it, or rather, it was taken from her in the year 570, and the church fell into the hands of the Pope of Rome.
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lax16 said:
jrtrent - If Jesus wasn’t able to keep his Church together, as promised, that makes him a liar. Mormons teach that Jesus wasn’t able to keep his Church together, therefore…,
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You are taking your own understanding of the verses in question, which Mormons don’t share, to state that they are calling Christ a liar. That’s why I included the Mormon links and their understanding of aeon–this shows that they are not calling Christ a liar when they say an apostasy occurred, rather, they teach that His predictions of apostasy actually came to pass. For someone to make the rather shocking accusation that Mormons call Christ a liar is, itself, a lie, if they know that’s not what Mormons really believe or teach. At the very least, it’s a fallacious debating tactic designed to manipulate emotions rather than use valid reasoning.

As a former Mormon, I know there are valid reasons for leaving or not joining that faith, but the idea that they call Christ a liar is not one of them.
 
It is not only the mormons who beleive in a “great, or total apostasy”. I was brought up in “the churches of Christ” and they believe the apostacy/restoration dichotomy as well.

They teach the church also went apostate nearly from the beggining, and that Mssrs Campbell and Stone brought the true church back into being.

Interestingly enough there was an early cofC preacher who later became mormon, Sidney Rigdon. He brought the great apostasy theory into mormondom.

After the death of Joseph Smith there was a power struggle for the presidencyof the mormon church. Brigham Young won and Rigdon established a rival mormon church that endured for roughly 10 years.

I think the Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah’s Witnesses beleive in the great apostacy as well.

The great apostasy idea was generally popular with Protestants in the early and mid 19th century.
 
andrewstx said:
It is not only the mormons who beleive in a “great, or total apostasy”. I was brought up in “the churches of Christ” and they believe the apostacy/restoration dichotomy as well. . . I think the Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah’s Witnesses beleive in the great apostacy as well.

The great apostasy idea was generally popular with Protestants in the early and mid 19th century.
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Yep. This point was brought up in the early pages of this thread, but it bears repeating that belief in an apostasy was common among the reformers, anabaptists, LDS, JW, Adventists, and hyper-dispensationalists. Historian Will Durant, in his book Caesar and Christ, had written “While Christianity converted the world, the world converted Christianity, and displayed the natural paganism of mankind,” and this in reference to a time period beginning before Constantine.
 
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