A date for the "Great Apostasy"

[Porknpie]

“but I do believe that from its earliest days error would creep in and need to be corrected, and that with the death of the last apostle the only corrective we have is the scriptures.”

JR, your thinking is wrong…the apostles passed on the teachings of Christ to their descendants and then to their descendants. This is apostolic tradition. From that tradition comes the bible, written by, for and about the Catholic Church. Tradition and scripture are consistent.

Example: infant baptism.

The apostolic tradition upholds & clearly speaks to infant baptism. Scripture is understood both in its words and in this historical light.

"My opinion is that the differences between denominations are not terribly important.

Then you ignore Christ’s words where he prays that we are to be “one”, ignore that he established a Church, singular and ignore that we are to seek the Truth and that the Truth will set us free. So abortion and contraception are OK?

As Loraine Boettner put it,

The Gospel according to Lorraine Boettner is a man made Gospel. Interesting that on Amazon, Boettner’s book on gets ** stars and Karl Keating’s book gets ***** stars. You really need to read Keating. One is a scholar (Keating) and one is not (Boettner).

Boettner amazon.com/Roman-Catholicism-Loraine-Boettner/dp/0875520928
Keating amazon.com/Catholicism-Fundamentalism-Attack-Romanism-Christians/dp/0898701775/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_4

That error was creeping into the church even from its earliest days is well attested to by scripture itself, and much in the New Testament was written to combat error. The Mormon articles I referred you to do a good job of pointing some of those out, so I see no need to paste them all here.

It’s a fair question to ask you to name a couple…two or three would be fine for a discussion…

I don’t claim to know which of the competing doctrinal positions are true, **if any, **and which aren’t,

Then you are open to the possibility that the Catholic church is correct in its teachings.

but am content to believe, with Mormon Apostle Dallin Oaks, that “most religious leaders and followers are sincere believers who love God and understand and serve him to the best of their abilities.”

So you want to follow Mormons…including Mormon prophets who believe that American Indians came from the Middle East? There are 38,000 denominations with sincere believers…this does not mean that they have the Truth. You are to follow the Truth.

Again, do you believe that the American Indians came from the Middle East as Joseph Smith & other Mormon prophets say?

I believe that the scriptures are my only guide to the truth, and that their light on the truth

JR, so follow scripture which is your guide…1 Timothy 3…“The Church (Catholic) is the Bulwark and Foundation of Truth”…not scripture. That’s what scripture - while inerrant and inspired, useful for teaching and instruction – says.

I accept the common Protestant declaration that, "Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation:

And scripture says this where?

What I think we can all agree on, even some of those you call non-Christian, is that:

“We are accountable to the God who created us. We have sinned against that God and will be judged. But God has acted in Jesus Christ to save us, and we take hold of that salvation by repentance from sin and faith in Jesus.”

I can agree with this… with the understanding of who God is…a proper understanding of him in the Trinity, that Christ established a Church on earth, to guide it to all Truth (on faith and morals) and he’ll be with it until the end of time, protecting it from error…and that he expects us to seek the Truth, as taught through his Church which he is the head and we are the body…including the reception of all the sacraments that he gives us so that like St. Paul says, we can persevere in faith until the end, with hopeful confidence of our salvation, but not false assurance.

 

[lax16]

I don’t see how. Unlike Mormons, I said I don’t believe the church came to an end within a century of its founding (in fact, I’ve said I don’t believe in a great apostasy at all, either the Mormon or Protestant treatments of that idea), nor do I think Mormons would accept the concept of the Bible being a corrective for erroneous teaching, but instead believe that a restoration of the church was needed, the one carried out by Joseph Smith.

jrtrent - How can anyone believe anything carried out by Joseph Smith? He was a known con man.
Do Mormons know anything about his criminal history? Or has it all been kept from them?

 

[jrtrent]

Mormon leaders and apologists are lying, and have been lying, about the Apostasy, the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, etc.

That’s a stronger claim than I’m willing to make. I believe some of their teachings are wrong, and that’s why I’m no longer a member, but I wouldn’t accuse any of the leaders I had known as being liars.

Certainly, the average Mormon is not aware that the interpretations they are being fed are twisted around. You presented the Mormon definition of “aeon” that was wrong - that tells me that once again words are spun to trick people into believing the Mormon interpretation of the Bible.

I think you’re right that the definition used in the link I provided may not be comprehensive. The link I gave said, “In Matthew 28:20, the Greek has Jesus saying that he will be with the church until the end of the “aion” – which means “eon,” “epoch,” “age,” or “period.” We believe that Jesus was with His Church until the end of that dispensation. Then came the apostasy.” jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Restoration.shtml#eon

However, the definition at one site, while not discounting the definition used above, does include additional possibilities:

Definition:
pr. a period of time of significant character; life; an era; an age: hence, a state of things marking an age or era; the present order of nature; the natural condition of man, the world; ὁ αἰών, illimitable duration, eternity; as also, οἱ αἰῶνες, ὁ αἰῶν τῶν αἰώνων, οἱ αἰῶνες τῶν αἰώνων; by an Aramaism οἱ αἰῶνες, the material universe, Heb. 1:2 teknia.com/greek-dictionary/aion

I believe that it is valid to say that people will believe what they have been told about religion, no matter what religion it is.

I think you’re right. Part of my situation is that I’ve been told about so many religions, and I have such respect for so many of the ones who have told me about them, that I want to believe them all.

 

[jrtrent]

. . . if you reduce faith to an ongoing oppositional view that trusts nobody with the faith except the Apostles or reduce faith to personal interpretation, you are reducing faith to intellectual symbol, not concrete.

If you then arbitrate interpretation of Scripture, of faith to another form, your interpreter in practice is subjective relativism, the ‘tyranny’ of today’s manner of discernment defined by Pope Benedict. . .

If you focus on men,you will see disjointed thoughts and actions down through the ages of the universal Church. If you look at the Church in faith in Jesus Christ and the Church as His bride, you will then see the same history as you did with the Jews…times they were faithful, times they fell away, but Christ always calling back His Bride to forgive, purify and restore.

The great challenge of faith is not to take scandal at His ministers, for it is Christ Who ministers through them. His Church goes on irregardless of clergy sins. . . You focus on scandal, you end up in false judgment and bring judgement on yourself if you take your eyes off of Christ and look at man and interpret sacred mysteries with the limitations of man, loosing the vision and transcendence of faith that goes beyond individual popes and priests. . .

If I can find the link, I will share with you an essay on this issue when did the apostasy start and the Restorationists and their on going problems of trying to find the time.

The first 300 years of Christianity were full of martyrs. And now in the East and other parts of the world in this last century we are witnessing a new age of martyrdom, 2000 years later, and yes, there are many protestants within them. But i do not think these martyrs are hung up on Restoration or apostasy but were totally centered on Christ and His new life.

You have a lot of good thoughts, here; I just included a few of them in the quote above. I will look forward to reading that essay if you can find it.

 

[TexanKnight]

I did at least answer that question, but maybe you didn’t read it. The first of the articles I linked to mentioned Paul’s letter to the Galatians, saying, “In one letter we read that, within two or three years after his mission to central Asia Minor, many Christians there had perverted the gospel. (See Gal. 1:6–12; Gal. 3:1–5.)” Since Galatians is believed to have been written between 48 and 52 AD, the “earliest days” would have been at least that early.

wow…what an enormous stretch. Paul says some have perverted and you take that as a world-wide apostasy…ignoring that Paul was busy correcting…which is what Jesus did and what the Apostles did and what HE was supposed to do…

any port in a storm, huh?

 

[lax16]

That’s a stronger claim than I’m willing to make. I believe some of their teachings are wrong, and that’s why I’m no longer a member, but I wouldn’t accuse any of the leaders I had known as being liars.

Yes, it is a strong claim. Have you read “An American Fraud: One Lawyer’s Case Against Mormonism”?
I am reading it now and the author does a very good job breaking down all of the claims starting from the Mormon church’s very anti-American beginnings, their lies about the Mountain Meadow Massacre, the inconsistencies with Joseph Smith’s visions, Emma Hale, Brigham Young’s 55 wives…

Now do you see why people like myself, who are free to read anything we want, have access to the lies of the Mormon church hierarchy? It is a thoroughly documented account of the Mormon church.

From the preface, the author Kay Burningham states:

**This book is my attempt to add structure to the existing body of historical primary source material which has recently become widely available, and when taken as a whole, exposes the carefully crafted Mormon image offered for consumption for the highly organized bureaucratic deception that it is. **

However, the definition at one site, while not discounting the definition used above, does include additional possibilities:

Definition:
pr. a period of time of significant character; life; an era; an age: hence, a state of things marking an age or era; the present order of nature; the natural condition of man, the world; ὁ αἰών, illimitable duration, eternity; as also, οἱ αἰῶνες, ὁ αἰῶν τῶν αἰώνων, οἱ αἰῶνες τῶν αἰώνων; by an Aramaism οἱ αἰῶνες, the material universe, Heb. 1:2 teknia.com/greek-dictionary/aion

I must leave these translations to the scholars.

I think you’re right. Part of my situation is that I’ve been told about so many religions, and I have such respect for so many of the ones who have told me about them, that I want to believe them all.

I am a cradle Catholic but have spent the last 7 years or so really looking into the history and claims of the Catholic Church. I really appreciate that I am “allowed” and encouraged to do so and that there is such an immense wealth of Christian history!
So many early Christians died for their faith. So many Early Church leaders fought against heresy only to meet their fate by fire or by lions. This is a Church that has SURVIVED in the face of tremendous persecution and struggle - it is something to celebrate and to be proud of! To say otherwise is historically inaccurate and quite honestly, an affront to those who fought so hard to keep the Church alive (with the help of the Holy Spirit of course! )

 

[KathleenGee]

TexanKnight…yes there is alot of speculation in such comments.

Anyway, here is a MUST reading for any Christian seeking the truth of God and Church.

Go to www.calledtocommunion.com. Click ‘Library’. Enter search: Ecclesial Deism

This article was submitted July 6, 2009, and refers to Mormonism and Restorationist thought who believed that Martin Luther was the one who brought back true Christianity.

Furthermore, it shows the depth and scope of Catholic faith in Jesus Christ Who was God enough to sufficiently use carnal, weak men to start His Church. Our grace is in Jesus Christ, the Lord is our strength.

If you can believe that Christ chose His apostles as founders with Him in starting His Church, and that through the Holy Spirit there is apostolic succession, ironically, believing in the true faith passed down through time, and not on individual or particular men, you are really liberating yourself from bondage to men and subsequently to cults.

You begin to understand the term better, ‘The Word Made Flesh’, how the Risen Lord draws all men up to Himself, and that He is the One Who is always the life of the Church, and not men.

We are beholden to God alone and not men. We can walk away in good conscience from a bad shepherd, as the Lord says He knows His sheep and His sheep know Him.

You can take down the Vatican and you can wipe out countless priests. The only way you can wipe out Catholicism is to take out every single believer in the world. And we must trust in Him alone, the Author and Giver of life.

We can have bad popes, but our faith continues on because it is not based on them but on Christ alone, through the teachings of the apostles and the sacraments. IF no priest is available, our faith suffices in receiving Jesus.

So you have to believe more in Christ Himself. And pray for wisdom and use of reason.

God bless!

 

[Stephen168]

I think you’re right. Part of my situation is that I’ve been told about so many religions, and I have such respect for so many of the ones who have told me about them, that I want to believe them all.

Is that why you skip the questions that require you to think and develop your own answer?

 

[KathleenGee]

To be Catholic and appreciate it, you have to think and use your reason God gave you.

It is there.

 

[KathleenGee]

Lax, there is a new church history book out, but is sold out on Amazon.com by James Hitchcock on early church history.

 

[LongJourney]

We can have bad popes, but our faith continues on because it is not based on them but on Christ alone, through the teachings of the apostles and the sacraments. IF no priest is available, our faith suffices in receiving Jesus.

I saw a show on EWTN a few days ago about the Catholics in Japan who kept the faith through several hundred years with no contact with the outside world. Talking about understanding suffering and poverty!! American Catholicism has lost so much in comparison to what they gained.

 

[lax16]

Lax, there is a new church history book out, but is sold out on Amazon.com by James Hitchcock on early church history.

Hi Kathleen -

Thanks for the recommendation! I order many books on Amazon and will have to add this to my next purchase.

I need to finish “An American Fraud” (I’m halfway thru) and I have another book about Mormonism that should be on my doorstep any day now…

I recently finished The Four Witnesses and am so humbled by the faith and tenacity of the Early Christians. I find reading Early Church history is a great way to deepen one’s faith and commitment to spreading the Truth.

 

[jrtrent]

wow…what an enormous stretch. Paul says some have perverted and you take that as a world-wide apostasy…ignoring that Paul was busy correcting…which is what Jesus did and what the Apostles did and what HE was supposed to do…

any port in a storm, huh?

I’ve said repeatedly that I don’t believe in an apostasy of the nature that Mormons and certain Protestants have described. Far from ignoring that Paul was busy correcting, I made that the basis of being able to say that error was creeping in from the earliest days of the church. I don’t know where you’re getting your ideas from, but it’s clear that we simply aren’t communicating.

 

[jrtrent]

Anyway, here is a MUST reading for any Christian seeking the truth of God and Church.

Go to www.calledtocommunion.com. Click ‘Library’. Enter search: Ecclesial Deism

Thanks. I have bookmarked it and will read it this evening.

 

[jrtrent]

Is that why you skip the questions that require you to think and develop your own answer?

From my perspective, it’s not me skipping questions, but others skipping or misunderstanding the answers. The answers I have to give, I’ve tried to give as completely as possible. If that’s not satisfactory, maybe I’ll better ones in another year or two of study.

It’s slipped my mind a couple of times, but I couldn’t help noticing your location as the Evergreen State, brown side. Just wondering if you’ve ever had a chance to enjoy the Hochstatter Special at Chico’s in Moses Lake. Living on the green side, it’s 450 miles roundtrip to pick up a couple friends in Tacoma and head over for a feast, but it’s the best pizza any of us have had the pleasure of eating.

 

[Stephen168]

From my perspective, it’s not me skipping questions, but others skipping or misunderstanding the answers. The answers I have to give, I’ve tried to give as completely as possible. If that’s not satisfactory, maybe I’ll better ones in another year or two of study.

I didn’t even see you try for post #434

It’s slipped my mind a couple of times, but I couldn’t help noticing your location as the Evergreen State, brown side. Just wondering if you’ve ever had a chance to enjoy the Hochstatter Special at Chico’s in Moses Lake. Living on the green side, it’s 450 miles roundtrip to pick up a couple friends in Tacoma and head over for a feast, but it’s the best pizza any of us have had the pleasure of eating.

No, Moses Lake is just coffee and gas on my way to someplace else.

 

[KathleenGee]

My husband LOVES Moses Lake and wants to retire there.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Mormon leaders and apologists are lying, and have been lying, about the Apostasy, the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, etc.

What exactly do you mean? What is your evidence that you are using to say that leaders of my faith are liars?

Does the average Mormon know this? No.

Do the leaders and apologists that you are referring to know that they are liars?

They are not allowed to read anything not approved by the LDS church, therefore, how can they know?

What? Where are you getting that from? That certainly is false (and I would know, as a leader in my local congregation). I have never been told not to read things that aren’t “approved” by the Church (where can I find this “approved” reading list?), nor have I told anyone anything like that in my capacity as a leader. Indeed, we have various forums, websites, articles, and books that review, respond to, and critique the writings of LDS critics, including one organization affiliated with Church-owned Brigham Young University. That would be odd if what you say is true.

I believe that it is valid to say that people will believe what they have been told about religion, no matter what religion it is.
But for the Mormons to continue to spread their message around the world after being presented with facts that put Joseph Smith in a *very *negative light (a fact kept from most Mormons) and facts that shed great doubt on the Book of Mormon (presented to the highest Mormon authorities by B.H. Roberts and ignored) it is hard to say they (the hierarchy and apologists) do not know they are lying to people. Or, at the very least, might be lying to people.

Firstly, this is from your own perspective. I assume you are aware of the many articles, books, etc that present the “facts” of the Catholic Church and many of her leaders and members throughout various periods of time that put them in a “very negative light”. I assume you are aware of the “facts” by various scholars that “shed great doubt” on the Bible. How do you respond to those “facts”?

The actual fact of the matter is that LDS scholars and apologists are well aware of the critical perspective of Joseph Smith, the Church of Jesus Christ, the Book of Mormon, etc. Indeed, they are readily discussed in various settings.

Also, I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt. It could just be that the LDS leaders, apologists, etc. actually believe what they say they believe. I doubt they accept the critical (and/or “anti”, as there is a difference between the two) perspectives as “facts” and then decide to lie about the “truth”.

Also, as far as B.H. Roberts, what do you mean by ignored?

fairlds.org/authors/jones-mckay/did-b-h-roberts-abandon-his-faith-in-the-book-of-mormon
en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/B.H._Roberts%27_testimony
fairlds.org/authors/jones-mckay/evasive-ignorance-anti-mormon-claims-that-b-h-roberts-lost-his-testimony

Etc.

Certainly, the average Mormon is not aware that the interpretations they are being fed are twisted around.

I hear Evangelicals make similar arguments about the interpretations Catholics are being “fed”.

You presented the Mormon definition of “aeon” that was wrong - that tells me that once again words are spun to trick people into believing the Mormon interpretation of the Bible.

What “Mormon definition”? That phrase seems to be poisoning the well. The definition provided for “aeon”/aion was not a “Mormon definition” (whatever that means). The definition provided said it can mean “eon”, epoch", “age”, or “period”. Various Biblical translations use “age” as the translation. Saying that Christ would be with the Church until the end of the “age” is certainly a valid translation, and has nothing to do with a “Mormon definition” (you quoted wikipedia earlier which even discusses the use of “aeon” in the verse in question, correct?). The question then becomes, what is the “age” being referred to. So no, words are not being “spun” to “trick” people into believing our interpretation of the Bible, anymore than Catholics “spin” words to “trick” people into believing the Catholic interpretation of the Bible, or so many Evangelicals claim.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Yes, it is a strong claim. Have you read “An American Fraud: One Lawyer’s Case Against Mormonism”?
I am reading it now and the author does a very good job breaking down all of the claims starting from the Mormon church’s very anti-American beginnings, their lies about the Mountain Meadow Massacre, the inconsistencies with Joseph Smith’s visions, Emma Hale, Brigham Young’s 55 wives…

And naturally there are sound Latter-day Saint responses to all of these “facts”.

Now do you see why people like myself, who are free to read anything we want, have access to the lies of the Mormon church hierarchy? It is a thoroughly documented account of the Mormon church.

Firstly, you attempt to poison the well by saying “people like myself, who are free to read anything we want”. The implication of course is false (as false as saying that Catholics were not free to read anything they wanted during the days of the* Index Librorum Prohibitorum*). Again, we have whole forums, articles, and books, by Latter-day Saint apologists, scholars, and just regular members discussing these things we apparently are not “free to read”.

We also have “thoroughly documented account” responding to those “thoroughly documented account”.

From the preface, the author Kay Burningham states:

**This book is my attempt to add structure to the existing body of historical primary source material which has recently become widely available, and when taken as a whole, exposes the carefully crafted Mormon image offered for consumption for the highly organized bureaucratic deception that it is. **

Interesting.

I must leave these translations to the scholars.

Yes, and the scholars have already shown that “age” is a valid translation, and the “Mormon definition” is anything but.

I am a cradle Catholic but have spent the last 7 years or so really looking into the history and claims of the Catholic Church. I really appreciate that I am “allowed” and encouraged to do so and that there is such an immense wealth of Christian history!
So many early Christians died for their faith. So many Early Church leaders fought against heresy only to meet their fate by fire or by lions. This is a Church that has SURVIVED in the face of tremendous persecution and struggle - it is something to celebrate and to be proud of! To say otherwise is historically inaccurate and quite honestly, an affront to those who fought so hard to keep the Church alive (with the help of the Holy Spirit of course! )

Yes, you are certainly entitled to celebrate your church’s history.

 

[TexanKnight]

I’ve said repeatedly that I don’t believe in an apostasy of the nature that Mormons and certain Protestants have described. Far from ignoring that Paul was busy correcting, I made that the basis of being able to say that error was creeping in from the earliest days of the church. I don’t know where you’re getting your ideas from, but it’s clear that we simply aren’t communicating.

well…you are not Catholic, so you must believe there were errors. You have pointed out none…and the only thing you can refer to is Paul correcting some errors…so, perhaps you can communicate better…

and if you do not believe in an LDS apostasy, you should stop referring to their teachings and books