A date for the "Great Apostasy"

[jrtrent]

So many early Christians died for their faith. So many Early Church leaders fought against heresy only to meet their fate by fire or by lions. This is a Church that has SURVIVED in the face of tremendous persecution and struggle - it is something to celebrate and to be proud of! To say otherwise is historically inaccurate and quite honestly, an affront to those who fought so hard to keep the Church alive (with the help of the Holy Spirit of course!

I can understand how just the existence of people who don’t believe that the Catholic Church is the one church founded and kept by Christ can be taken as an affront. I don’t try to be offensive, and I don’t think I carry the traditional anti-Catholic prejudices that many non-Catholics hold. For example, when I was drawn to Lutheran theology, I chose an AFLC church rather than an LCMS or WELS church mostly because in the AFLC you don’t need to sign on to the idea that the papacy is the anti-Christ. When my congregation divided over property issues, and there was no other AFLC affiliated church in the area, I started attending one of the continuing Anglican churches instead, which is pretty accepting of a broad range of viewpoints.

Porknpie had written:

JR, your thinking is wrong…the apostles passed on the teachings of Christ to their descendants and then to their descendants. This is apostolic tradition. From that tradition comes the bible, written by, for and about the Catholic Church. Tradition and scripture are consistent. . .

Then you are open to the possibility that the Catholic church is correct in its teachings.

And I have to admit that it’s a logical possibility that the Catholic Church is correct in its teachings. From my previous answers, I obviously don’t hold that opinion at this point, and, to be honest, I find the Orthodox church a more likely candidate, but in saying this I’m not trying to give offense. I’m just being a non-Catholic in a non-Catholic forum.

 

[RebeccaJ]

JR, Unsolicited advice from a person who over thinks and over analyzes everything (Briggs-Meyers INTJ here). You can’t discount the Holy Spirit, which cannot be laid out on a table for inspection and analyzation. Prayer is where we enter the life of the Holy Trinity. Book-learning confirms that life, or it doesn’t.

Even Catholics get confused.

 

[Porknpie]

Porknpie had written:

And I have to admit that it’s a logical possibility that the Catholic Church is correct in its teachings. From my previous answers, I obviously don’t hold that opinion at this point, and, to be honest, I find the Orthodox church a more likely candidate, but in saying this I’m not trying to give offense. I’m just being a non-Catholic in a non-Catholic forum.

JR, I can respect what you say above…but would ask, why do you perceive the Orthodox a more likely candidate? No offense taken…in advance.

 

[RocketRM]

JR, I can respect what you say above…but would ask, why do you perceive the Orthodox a more likely candidate? No offense taken…in advance.

Yes, I am interested in understanding your rationale also.

God Bless!

 

[kimg901]

So there wouldnt be any objection by the lds church if the missionaries used the N.A.B or any other bible that has not been changed (no K.J.V) ? They would be okay with this? Im sorry, but the whole apostasy belief is an insult to our Lord & Saviour, Jesus Christ. As well as all Catholics worldwide. Its my duty to defend His Bride with all that I am, including my life. Would you mormons die for your church?

 

[andrewstx]

Jrtrent, in my post you keep reffering to I wAs only saying the history of “the great apostacy”
and that others besides mormons teach it.
To me mormons, SDAs, JWs are all cults, and the self proclaimed “church of Christ” has it’s
own cultic traits.

I don’t agree with any of them, and that is one lf the reasons I left the cofC the day I graduated and escaped my familiy’s control.

 

[batman1973]

What exactly do you mean? What is your evidence that you are using to say that leaders of my faith are liars?

Really? Are you seriously that blind? Your church leaders, especially the early ones were skilled at lying and did it a lot. Many are recorded as so called “prophecies”. I listed a few here on this thread. So did Pork, and Texanknight. There were more lies listed on the Is the LDS a cult? thread. You need to read and not just skim half ***** and then post non-sense like this and expect any sympathy or credibility. Your “church” is based on lies, called the Savior of the World a liar. Sad indeed. Will pray for you and all Mormons of all stripes that they come to Christ.

 

[SteveVH]

What exactly do you mean? What is your evidence that you are using to say that leaders of my faith are liars?

I wouldn’t say that the leaders or the members of the LDS Church today are liars. They are simply misled. I would, however, say that Joseph Smith was a liar. No one can prove or disprove his claims to have been visited by divine beings, nor his reception of the golden plates, even though there is no empirical evidence to suggest it is true. I am just curious as to your opinion on the Book of Abraham in light of modern knowledge surrounding its authenticity. IMO, this is the greatest evidence that he was not above lying to further his standing as a “prophet”.

Thanks.

 

[Porknpie]

I wouldn’t say that the leaders or the members of the LDS Church today are liars.

Perhaps not. Proving intent is not easy. I’ll leave this assessment for lawyer Tex. But they have clouded intellect’s…defined by Merriam-Webster as…

1 a : the power of knowing as distinguished from the power to feel and to will : the capacity for knowledge
b : the capacity for rational or intelligent thought especially when highly developed

They are simply misled. I would, however, say that Joseph Smith was a liar. No one can prove or disprove his claims to have been visited by divine beings, nor his reception of the golden plates, even though there is no empirical evidence to suggest it is true. I am just curious as to your opinion on the Book of Abraham in light of modern knowledge surrounding its authenticity. IMO, this is the greatest evidence that he was not above lying to further his standing as a “prophet”.

I am still wondering…does the LDS Church hold that the American Indians came from the Middle East in 600BC…when genetic science proves that they came from Asia?

 

[SteveVH]

I am still wondering…does the LDS Church hold that the American Indians came from the Middle East in 600BC…when genetic science proves that they came from Asia?

Yes, that too.

 

[KathleenGee]

They don’t believe in the Lamamites any more.

We believe as we did 2000 years ago. God is the Unmoved Mover.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

From my perspective, it’s not me skipping questions, but others skipping or misunderstanding the answers. The answers I have to give, I’ve tried to give as completely as possible. If that’s not satisfactory, maybe I’ll better ones in another year or two of study.

It’s slipped my mind a couple of times, but I couldn’t help noticing your location as the Evergreen State, brown side. Just wondering if you’ve ever had a chance to enjoy the Hochstatter Special at Chico’s in Moses Lake. Living on the green side, it’s 450 miles roundtrip to pick up a couple friends in Tacoma and head over for a feast, but it’s the best pizza any of us have had the pleasure of eating.

I know I’m off subject but I live in Eastern Washington & stop @ Moses Lake off I-90 quite a bit as have done many trips past there lately. Will take the Pizza tip & put it to use! :tiphat:

 

[TexanKnight]

Perhaps not. Proving intent is not easy. I’ll leave this assessment for lawyer Tex. But they have clouded intellect’s…defined by Merriam-Webster as…

1 a : the power of knowing as distinguished from the power to feel and to will : the capacity for knowledge
b : the capacity for rational or intelligent thought especially when highly developed

I am still wondering…does the LDS Church hold that the American Indians came from the Middle East in 600BC…when genetic science proves that they came from Asia?

Here is the conundrum…I truly hesitate to call the LDS leaders of today liars, but it is also hard not to. They MUST know the truth. That is why they refuse to do any archaeological digs at Cumorah…they KNOW they will not find any evidence of great battles there.

One need look no further than the Mark Hoffman fiasco to understand just how much the leaders know and how they try to hide truth.

 

[jrtrent]

I know I’m off subject but I live in Eastern Washington & stop @ Moses Lake off I-90 quite a bit as have done many trips past there lately. Will take the Pizza tip & put it to use! :tiphat:

Just a couple things to be aware of. One is that they don’t open til 4:00 PM, and the other is that it can take a long time to get your order if it’s a busy day. I was once given an estimated wait of 90 minutes (so I took a side trip to nearby Ephrata, where I was born, just to see the changes and visit the graveyard where some family members are buried).

What I do now is simply call my order in ahead of time, usually the day before I plan to be there, and they have the pizza ready for me when they open (with the long drive back home, I like to eat as early as possible). You can call the same day, too, as staff are there early getting the ovens warmed up and so on (a little problematic for me as I’ve never been a cellular phone user, and public telephones are getting pretty scarce).

Hope you enjoy it! So far, evey person I’ve taken there or recommended it to has said it was a great experience.

 

[jrtrent]

Jrtrent, in my post you keep reffering to I wAs only saying the history of “the great apostacy”
and that others besides mormons teach it.
To me mormons, SDAs, JWs are all cults, and the self proclaimed “church of Christ” has it’s
own cultic traits.

I don’t agree with any of them, and that is one lf the reasons I left the cofC the day I graduated and escaped my familiy’s control.

Sorry, didn’t mean to smear you by association. When I quoted your post 396 on page 27 it was only to support what you were saying. I had brought up a similar point in post 66 on page 5citing a Wikipedia source, then added further dates and examples in posts 77 and 101, citing Talmage, Boettner, and Durant. If I implied anything about your beliefs that was untrue, it was not intentional.

 

[jrtrent]

JR, I can respect what you say above…but would ask, why do you perceive the Orthodox a more likely candidate? No offense taken…in advance.

My reasons are certainly neither profound nor many, and I’m sure you’ve seen them many times before. One is simply that of numbers. My understanding is that at the time of the schism there were five Patriarchal centers. Rome separated, leaving the other four still intact. Those other four, plus about nine additional church regions that have been added over time, still remain together with Rome on the outside. That doesn’t make Rome wrong, but just the fact that four went one way while one went another lends weight to the majority.

The other reason is that the Orthodox faith doesn’t seem to have added things over the years like Rome has; for example, the Filioque, the immaculate conception, purgatory, celibate clergy, papal infallibility, and universal jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome. A church with fewer developments that need to be believed is a church that’s easier to accept as having been the original.

 

[Porknpie]

Sorry, didn’t mean to smear you by association. When I quoted your post 396 on page 27 it was only to support what you were saying. I had brought up a similar point in post 66 on page 5citing a Wikipedia source, then added further dates and examples in posts 77 and 101, citing Talmage, Boettner, and Durant. If I implied anything about your beliefs that was untrue, it was not intentional.

JR, Boettner has about the same credibility as Joseph Smith…he’s similar to JS in that a volume of writing appears to lead to truth but fails completely. He is most offensive where he (repeatedly) mis-states Catholic doctrine. The Catechism of the Catholic Church was available to him and he chose not to read it or quote from it. At other times, his theology is simply in error.

Read Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating then comment where…any where, that Boettner has it right.

shop.catholic.com/catholicism-and-fundamentalism.html

 

[jrtrent]

JR, Boettner has about the same credibility as Joseph Smith…
Read Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating then comment where…any where, that Boettner has it right.

I understand the point you’re making, but when discussing or trying to present Protestant beliefs, whether it’s on the apostasy of the church or the perpetual virginity of Mary, one has to cite the sources that they find credible, and that they use to support their positions. There’s a chapter devoted to Boettner’s Roman Catholicism in The Essential Catholic Survival Guide. The author of that chapter finds Boettner’s book to have had such great influence, to have been quoted by so many groups and authors, that he entitled that chapter The Anti-Catholic Bible. Say what you will about his scholarship or the truth or falsehood of his conclusions, you still have to concede that what is found in that book is representative of much of the fundamentalist, Protestant world.

 

[Stephen168]

From my perspective, it’s not me skipping questions,…

Yes, you skip questions. Questions a thinking person looking for the truth needs to answer; yet you don’t.

I find that common in Mormonism.

 

[Stephen168]

Say what you will about his scholarship or the truth or falsehood of his conclusions, you still have to concede that what is found in that book is representative of much of the fundamentalist, Protestant world.

Yes, it is represents anti-Catholic protestant thought, but it does not represent the truth. Someone looking for the truth would reject it. Someone looking for anti-catholic propaganda would quote it often.