A debate Thead A only scripture agreeing

[edwinG]

Matt16_18:

There are no scriptures that support 1, 2, & 3, especially the bizarre idea that you are two people.

4)obey the Holy Spirit

… he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

John 1:36

… no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit
1Cor. 12:3

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth …
John 16:14

… for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury
Romans 2:8

Thank you Matt16 18,
I have posted some quotes concerning these issues. It shows the large number regarding “obeying” as the ones you have posted are not duplicated in my post.
Thanks for helping
Christ be with you
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edwinG

 

[JPrejean]

What you say does make sense, and isn’t that a shame. When one christian has to know which branch another christian is from before he can communicate. Do you think that please Christ, that He is so divided?

Surely not, but it is a reality, and we can’t hope to deal with it by pretending it doesn’t exist. When people are asking about your denominational stripe, it is not to create separation, but to acknowledge separation that already exists and to try to deal with it.

 

[edwinG]

JPrejean:

You got that from “Let Us make man in Our image?” I thought we Catholics were the ones supposedly reading things into Scripture that aren’t there.

If your reasoning were correct, then sin would be the image of God, and I think you can see why that might present some logical difficulties. Excessive literalism almost always leads to heresy in one way or another, so you have to be critical about whether you are taking something so literally as to contradict its intended meaning. Paul most certainly did not intend to use the terms “flesh” and “old man” in the way that you are suggesting, because it would imply that God created sin and/or made sin in His own image.

Thank you for your reply. This raises a couple of things I would like to chat about. Firstly I said the image was Will, Word, and Spirit, not flesh. God is not flesh. Can you comment on that. Can you also comment on the plurality of the words. And was the first man of the seed, Adam created in the image of sin or did he fall into sin.
Genesis1:27 reverts to the single " So God created man in His image, in the image of God He created Him, male and female He created them.
Christ be with you,
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[JPrejean]

Firstly I said the image was Will, Word, and Spirit, not flesh. God is not flesh. Can you comment on that. Can you also comment on the plurality of the words. And was the first man of the seed, Adam created in the image of sin or did he fall into sin.

First, thanks for your reply. My comment on God not being flesh is that I think it denies a fundamental reality of both Creation and Incarnation. God indeed is flesh in the person of Christ Jesus. Moreover, God created flesh and proclaimed it good, which means that flesh cannot be evil. I agree with your general observation that the image of God is our rational mind, but that rational mind is joined with human flesh to make a person, and you can’t discuss the different components of a person as if they were separate people.

This leads to a difficulty I see with your conception of the Trinity. You seem to conceive of the Persons of the Trinity as parts of God rather than three separate Persons with one divine nature (and incidentally, one divine will shared by all three Persons of the Trinity). The plural language (“let Us…”) clearly refers to the Trinitarian nature of God, but the fact that we are in the image of God’s divine nature means that we, like the Trinity, have only one will each.

 

[edwinG]

PhilVaz:

Some translations have inner being, some inner man in Rom 7:22, Eph 3:16. It’s not trying to say you are two people. We are one person who is “spirit, soul, and body” (1 Thess 5:23) or simply “body and soul” (Matt 10:28). You got the right passages for the flesh/spirit. Read them in various translations to clear things up. It’s saying we have a sinful nature.

edwin << Genesis1:26 Then God said let us make man in our image according to our likeness.
Now I would like to point out to you that this is in the plural and we are in His (plural ) image. Will word and spirit.
I hope this clarifies my intentions >>

Ah ha, sounds like Benny Hinn’s bizarre exegesis "there’s nine of them." And since we are made in the image of the Trinity, there’s nine of us. Not to confuse you even more.

Phil P

HI PhilVaz,
Thanks for keeping on. Try this quote I Corinthians15:44 IT is sown a natural body,it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body.
Please tell me Phil, what does Christ mean when He says we must be born again.
Yes , The sin is in the flesh and in all of those born of flesh.
Romans 9:8 That is those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God but the children of the promise are counted as seed.
Dont you read this as saying anyone born of the human desire to have children are of the flesh, but if you are reborn you are of the spirit. you are reborn the birth inside of you of the inner man, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in your heart.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[Apologia100]

edwinG:

Hi,
Can you post scripture agreeing with these ideas. Note, there is another thread Thread B for scripture disagreeing with these ideas.

1. I am two people, flesh and the inner man
2. Sin is in the flesh
3. The inner man can not sin and is resurrected
   4)obey the Holy Spirit
   Christ be with you
   walk in love
   edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

This is the heresy of Albagenisanism. The first Inquisition was started to quelch this sort of thing.

 

[edwinG]

JPrejean:

Surely not, but it is a reality, and we can’t hope to deal with it by pretending it doesn’t exist. When people are asking about your denominational stripe, it is not to create separation, but to acknowledge separation that already exists and to try to deal with it.

HI JPrejean,
Again what you say is true, But separation only exists for those who wish it. As I dont wish it it is not so with me. There is no separation coming from me. If some one wants to create that, well he has free will. If he doesnt want to be separated he can just chat, unless pride squeezes into the gap he has created in his love. This pride can then be nurtured until it becomes a bigger issue.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

Apologia100:

This is the heresy of Albagenisanism. The first Inquisition was started to quelch this sort of thing.

Hi Apologia100,
Thanks for joining in. Is all of it heresy? The 4 points! Will you discuss the scripture passages that have come up in this thread. Can you point me to a book or literature, please, although that can be difficult in Thailand as they dont have much of a library and they wont put books on order. Maybe some internet reference
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[Todd_Easton]

Paul sometimes presents the Christian’s internal struggle against concupiscence as if the Christian has some kind of split personality with one part of him desiring to live according to the Spirit in righteousness and holiness and another part of him still drawn to the lusts of the flesh but this is simply a literary device. We only have one will, which for many of us, won’t be completely purged of our attachment to venial sins and completely fixed on God until after we die and go through Purgatory.

Concupiscence refers to the “human appetites or desires which remain disordered due to the temporal consequences of original sin, which remain even after Baptism and which produce an inclination to sin.” (from the Glossary of the Catechism of the Catholic Church)

Paul tells the born-again Christians of Ephesus, “Put off your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.” (Eph 4:22-23)

 

[edwinG]

JPrejean:

First, thanks for your reply.Moreover, God created flesh and proclaimed it good, which means that flesh cannot be evil.

Yes flesh was good, until sin entered. The bible is full of passages relating to sin and flesh.
Romans8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh can not please God.

but the fact that we are in the image of God’s divine nature means that we, like the Trinity, have only one will each.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me( That is, in my flesh, nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find,
Romans7:19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
Romans7:20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Romans7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
And we have the Lord’s Prayer, " Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." That is the spirit conquering the flesh, the spirit being obedient to Christ and the prayer that the flesh will be subject to the spirit and not the other way around.
One will if you discount the will of sin in the flesh.
Is the will counted as part of the soul?
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walk in love
edwinG

 

[beng]

edwinG:

Hi Beng,
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptised into Christ have put on Christ.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew or Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

I think Scripture may be talking about pride, what do you think beng? For myself, my denomination is not important to me, but being a Christian is. Being this or that can sidetrack the focus of a discussion and it can create divisions, which I am sure no one wants.
Your first post spoke about heresies. Can you explain what you mean?
Christ be with you,
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

Who is prideful when you’re the one who’s unwilling to identify yourselves clearly? Are you ashamed of yourself?

 

[edwinG]

Todd Easton:

Paul sometimes presents the Christian’s internal struggle against concupiscence as if the Christian has some kind of split personality with one part of him desiring to live according to the Spirit in righteousness and holiness and another part of him still drawn to the lusts of the flesh but this is simply a literary device. We only have one will, which for many of us, won’t be completely purged of our attachment to venial sins and completely fixed on God until after we die and go through Purgatory.

Hi Todd,
Yes, I agree we only have one will. How do catholics see the soul. What do you understand the soul is made up of ( if anything) I read somewhere what someone thought but I can’t remember what was written. I have asked a couple of people on this thread but I haven’t had an answer yet. Could you help me. What happens when we are born again? What does this mean?

Concupiscence refers to the “human appetites or desires which remain disordered due to the temporal consequences of original sin, which remain even after Baptism and which produce an inclination to sin.” (from the Glossary of the Catechism of the Catholic Church)

Paul tells the born-again Christians of Ephesus, “Put off your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.” (Eph 4:22-23)
In your Glossary it says about an “inclination to sin”. This has to be a huge understatement, as when under attack the inclination is not able to be resisted. I know from experience and if you asked Peter he would tell you the same thing. Satan wanted to sift him and then Peter denied Christ 3 times. No small feat as we can all imagine how strong Peter’s faith was.
Once again , thanks for joinging in.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

beng:

Who is prideful when you’re the one who’s unwilling to identify yourselves clearly? Are you ashamed of yourself?

Hi beng,
No beng, I am not ashamed of myself. I believe the Holy Spirit guides my life. That is not a statement saying I dont make mistakes, or that I know more than other people,but it is a statement of how I live my life, in obedience to the maximum degree I can. All things in God’s time.
Now I also believe in Galatians 3:27 and Galatians 3:28. I am still an Australian but hopefully one day I will be able to truthfully say and feel it in my heart that my nationality is no more important than the denomination of the church I attend. By His grace it will come to pass.
If you find it impossible to communicate with anyone in these forums without knowing which church they attend, then so be it.
We have had many posts, and none productive. Do you want to talk about scripture? Did you want to discuss the Galatians verses? Are they the same in your bible? If you find you cant communicate with me, we may both miss out on learning something.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[JPrejean]

If he doesnt want to be separated he can just chat, unless pride squeezes into the gap he has created in his love.

I guess the reason that I mentioned it is that I consider it an expression of love to attempt to understand what a person is saying sincerely, without misrepresenting them or being dishonest about your own position. It’s been my experience that a lack of understanding contributes to a great deal of rancor, so it’s just my opinion that people get along better when they are clearest about what they believe. But I understand if you differ with me on that point, and I won’t press you on this point.

The bible is full of passages relating to sin and flesh.

Well, I suppose that we will simply have to agree to disagree on what those passages mean, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Thanks for your thoughts on the subject.

 

[beng]

edwinG:

Hi beng,
No beng, I am not ashamed of myself. I believe the Holy Spirit guides my life. That is not a statement saying I dont make mistakes, or that I know more than other people,but it is a statement of how I live my life, in obedience to the maximum degree I can. All things in God’s time.
Now I also believe in Galatians 3:27 and Galatians 3:28. I am still an Australian but hopefully one day I will be able to truthfully say and feel it in my heart that my nationality is no more important than the denomination of the church I attend. By His grace it will come to pass.
If you find it impossible to communicate with anyone in these forums without knowing which church they attend, then so be it.
We have had many posts, and none productive. Do you want to talk about scripture? Did you want to discuss the Galatians verses? Are they the same in your bible? If you find you cant communicate with me, we may both miss out on learning something.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

Are you a Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox?

Where is your chairty in Christ that you’re unable to answer this?

Do you want to lie by not answer straightly?

Why the lie?

And yes, I don’t want to communicate with a person who’s lying or withholding the truth.

 

[edwinG]

beng:

Are you a Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox?

Hi beng, I am a christian

Where is your chairty in Christ that you’re unable to answer this?

This question does not edify the church

Do you want to lie by not answer straightly?

No

Why the lie?

This question is irrevelant

And yes, I don’t want to communicate with a person who’s lying or withholding the truth.

At last we agree beng. bye
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[PhilVaz]

edwin << Please tell me Phil, what does Christ mean when He says we must be born again. >>

John 3:3-5 points to baptism. Born again = born of water and Spirit = baptism (John 3:22; Matt 28:19; Mark 16:16). Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, some Anglicans, some Methodists, would agree. At baptism we receive the Holy Spirit, forgiveness of sins, and regeneration (Acts 2:38; 1 Peter 3:21; etc). Other Protestant groups (mostly evangelicals and baptists, etc) teach this is a spiritual rebirth or regeneration (new birth) by the Holy Spirit but not directly connected with the sacrament. And there are exceptions (Acts 10) since “God is not bound by his sacraments” (see Catechism paragraph 1257).

The Church Fathers would agree with the born again = baptism teaching

Phil P

 

[beng]

edwinG:

Hi beng, I am a christian

1. Do you believe that the Pope is the supreme pontiff whose authority must be abide by all Christ faithful?
2. Do you believe that a Bishop must have valid apostolic sucession obtained through ordination of the sucessor of the Apostles?

Let’s see how you answer these.

Most likely you’re a simple Protestant.

[quoteThis question does not edify the church
[/quote]
This question is to know what you are. Of course it would not edify the Church because not all question have to edify the Church.

What a nice holier than thou.

No

Then be straight and not hide information.

This question is irrevelant

Yes it is. Because knowing what are you will help in answering the question.

At last we agree beng. bye

Good. You’re a liar and you’re also withholding the truth. Nice to agree.

 

[edwinG]

PhilVaz:

edwin << Please tell me Phil, what does Christ mean when He says we must be born again. >>

John 3:3-5 points to baptism. Born again = born of water and Spirit = baptism (John 3:22; Matt 28:19; Mark 16:16). Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, some Anglicans, some Methodists, would agree. At baptism we receive the Holy Spirit, forgiveness of sins, and regeneration (Acts 2:38; 1 Peter 3:21; etc). Other Protestant groups (mostly evangelicals and baptists, etc) teach this is a spiritual rebirth or regeneration (new birth) by the Holy Spirit but not directly connected with the sacrament. And there are exceptions (Acts 10) since “God is not bound by his sacraments” (see Catechism paragraph 1257).

The Church Fathers would agree with the born again = baptism teaching

Phil P

Hi Phil,
Thanks very much for responding on this question.
Can you tell me more of what you believe? Roll up your sleeves and tuck in so to speak.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwin G

 

[edwinG]

beng:

1. Do you believe that the Pope is the supreme pontiff whose authority must be abide by all Christ faithful?
2. Do you believe that a Bishop must have valid apostolic sucession obtained through ordination of the sucessor of the Apostles?

Let’s see how you answer these.

Most likely you’re a simple Protestant.

[quoteThis question does not edify the church
This question is to know what you are. Of course it would not edify the Church because not all question have to edify the Church.

What a nice holier than thou.

Then be straight and not hide information.

Yes it is. Because knowing what are you will help in answering the question.

Good. You’re a liar and you’re also withholding the truth. Nice to agree.

Hi beng,
1)No I dont agree that the Pope is the supreme Pontiff. To me he is a brother in Christ ,no more no less.
2) beng I dont understand " church speak too well,so I am not sure what you are asking me. If you are asking me if all the bishops are related to Peter, I would say I dont agree with this, but I would agree that we are all brothers in Christ and seed from God.
3) answered them
4) simple yes I am simple , but I dont know which denominations you classify as protestant. LOL
5) too much of a jumble for this simple person
6) I dont understand your question
7) I am not a complicated person beng
8) well I am telling you I am a Christian. Surely you can answer to that. Everyone else has. You are the only one who finds it impossible to answer. This must be about our 6th posting ( I havent counted, just guessed)
9) Ast this is a statement of your belief, It doesnt need an answer.
Christ be with you beng
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
[/QUOTE]