A Deceptively Simple Question

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sair
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Sair

Guest
Why is human overpopulation not a problem?

I realise this raises many issues, but when considered from the point of view of our current use of unsustainable resources, despoiled habitats for numerous other creatures, our continual spreading over habitable land, and the sheer scale of the arable land and potable water required to sustain large-scale human life, how is it even possible that unlimited human population growth could be a good thing?
 
You would first have to show that the world is, in fact, overpopulated. And, that there are not sufficient resources (food, water, etc) for the population that exists today. And, that the population is growing at an “unlimited” rate.

If you can show all three of your premises are true, then we will have something to discuss. Of course, none of them are true, so we do not.
 
If you can show all three of your premises are true, then we will have something to discuss. Of course, none of them are true, so we do not.
Working on the former. Do you know the latter without doubt?

Furthermore, from a purely rational point of view, do you assume the earth’s carrying capacity is unlimited?
 
Working on the former. Do you know the latter without doubt?

Furthermore, from a purely rational point of view, do you assume the earth’s carrying capacity is unlimited?
Well back at you… what is your solution? Killing and mutilating people?:confused:
 
As an illustrative example, I live in Australia, a continent which has very evident limitations in terms of the population it can support at present levels of affluence (the majority of our land area is desert). It seems to me that the solutions are either a radical change in our standard of living - fine by me, but can’t really speak for anyone else - or a reduction in population.

Furthermore, the importation of food from where it is grown to where it is consumed (a direct consequence of population growth and the resultant demand for produce) creates both practical and ethical problems - the carbon emissions involved in transport, for one thing, and (shameful as it is) the suffering inflicted upon animals transported to other countries for use as food - an issue which has huge political implications here in Western Australia.

I simply can’t understand how unlimited human population growth can be a positive development, unless we are content to accept a greatly reduced standard of living for ourselves, and a gradual extinction of all but domestic species of animals and plants.

It’s not enough to sweep the issues under the rug and assume that science and technology will have all the answers - we have to take this responsibility upon ourselves, somehow.
 
I tend towards 1ke’s rational.

The problem is not so much one of over-use as it is poor management of natural and economic resources. I am a raw foodist (nothing cooked, vegan, organic, blah blah blah) and I have a number of friends who I would describe a tree hugging hippies. They all hold the same point of view and our discussion tend to be rather exciting. They also are very liberal and think birth control is the greatest gift man kind has ever given itself (despite the ecological harm it creates). Over population becomes the rational for birth control. And since we are contracepting anyway, what is the problem with having a lot of sex? And if you still get pregnant, have an abortion. (I see I have managed to turn over population into a sex thing. How very Catholic of me :D).

Overpopulation is one of those things where people need a reason to do what they are going to do anyway. Now they can feel ‘good’ about it. Yeah!

If you look at the birth rate in some countries like Japan, you can see that it is below replacement level. In my own family, I have four kids. My brother and his wife have one (and are not going have anymore) and my sister and her husband have zero (due to a reproductive problem). Assuming a theoretical replacement rate of one per parent, me and my siblings would need to have six kids to replace us. We have five. Most people I know are in that boat.

The earth’s carrying capacity is unlimited in the sense that God gave it to use and told us to multiply. We have to trust that if we follow His plan, it will be ok.
 
Well back at you… what is your solution? Killing and mutilating people?:confused:
I’m pretty sure there’s a logical fallacy inherent in that question, but it’s too late in my part of the world to look up and describe what it is.

How about limiting the number of children people have…? Not even coercively, but through pointing out that it’s not necessary to reproduce - it’s a choice. I get the feeling there are many who would not reproduce if it were not assumed to be the done thing. And I don’t see it as a bad thing to have more people thinking before they have children…
 
I’m pretty sure there’s a logical fallacy inherent in that question, but it’s too late in my part of the world to look up and describe what it is.

How about limiting the number of children people have…? Not even coercively, but through pointing out that it’s not necessary to reproduce - it’s a choice. I get the feeling there are many who would not reproduce if it were not assumed to be the done thing. And I don’t see it as a bad thing to have more people thinking before they have children…
Like your parents should have perhaps? What a ridiculous topic…:confused:
 
I think you don’t see the can of worms you’re opening.

So, a ‘choice’ is to be made by the prospective parents. . .and just who will be the authority to pronounce them ‘fit’ to reproduce? What will be the criteria? “Sustainability?” Well, let’s look at say the people of some poor African country, where the military is in charge, aid isn’t properly distributed, AIDS is running high. . .heck, there should be wholesale sterilization there, the whole population, right? Because they aren’t able to care for the ones they have. . .Oh wait. I guess the military and political wives and the ones who cooperate in the theft and the killings should be able to reproduce. After all, they have the power and the stability and the resources.

It’s not that your question is simple, it’s that (despite your good intentions), your point of view is too narrow and you haven’t thought through the consequences of the supposedly ‘simple’ solutions of ‘just not reproducing’.

Also, your ‘personal opinion’ just doesn’t cut it here. You could be wrong, you know. The desire of men and women to marry and raise a family is a pretty ‘basic’ one; even the psychiatrists agree. And even if say John and Mary are so vapid and shallow that they just want to have children solely because 'well, people expect us to". . .do you really think that once the children arrive John and Mary can’t possibly become loving and capable parents? That people don’t mature, grow, and change for the better, but only for the worse? Most people do become loving and capable parents, even the ‘poor’, even the ‘slow’, even the ‘shallow’. I fear you’ve become so inundated with media reports of the anomalies–the ones who are newsworthy in their ‘abuse’ --that you forget they’re only a tiny portion of humanity. It isn’t newsworthy that 99% of the parents in Australia (or anywhere else) are pretty much loving, decent, capable parents doing their best to raise happy, healthy children and pretty much succeeding.
 
I think one thing being overlooked is that there are many *political *reasons to limit population, but not any *economic *reasons to do so.

In fact, the *opposite *is true. Reputable economists know that growth, development, and prosperity depend upon population growth-- and population density in particular.

There are many, many economists worried over our current population implosion. Most countries are below replacement fertility and continue to decline. Economists recognize the problems awaiting these countries. Productivity, prosperity, and sustainability depend upon population growth.

We have only catapulted ourselves out of subsistence living in the last 100 years, and this has been a combination of innovation and population growth and density. We are now going the other direction.

I suggest you read the following:

ewtn.com/library/PROLIFE/POPFACTS.TXT

ewtn.com/library/PROLENC/ENCYC131.HTM

ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/zpopdecline.HTM

un.org/esa/population/publications/popdecline/Katsumata.pdf

landpolicy.msu.edu/modules.php?name=News&op=viewlive&sp_id=76
 
I’m pretty sure there’s a logical fallacy inherent in that question, but it’s too late in my part of the world to look up and describe what it is.

How about limiting the number of children people have…? Not even coercively, but through pointing out that it’s not necessary to reproduce - it’s a choice. I get the feeling there are many who would not reproduce if it were not assumed to be the done thing. And I don’t see it as a bad thing to have more people thinking before they have children…
Well, the killing would be abortion, the mutilation would be sterilization/contraception.

Are you in favor of these sorts of “solutions”? Or are you saying promotion of abstinence in marriage?
 
You would first have to show that the world is, in fact, overpopulated. And, that there are not sufficient resources (food, water, etc) for the population that exists today. And, that the population is growing at an “unlimited” rate.

If you can show all three of your premises are true, then we will have something to discuss. Of course, none of them are true, so we do not.
While proving that the world is having a food shortage as a whole could be tough, I would posit that desertification in Africa and decreasing fallow periods in Indonesia show that those two areas in particular are well past their carrying capacity. Decreasing fish populations and deforestation in tropical regions.

A water shortage is tough to deny- although as we get better at desalinating ocean water we are unlikely to ever run out of water (in the foreseeable future), we will run out of cheap water. The U.S. has not been hit as hard by the ongoing water shortage because we’re sitting on a truly massive aquifers, other areas have been far from this fortunate.

“Unlimited” growth rate is strange terminology, but the growth rate is truly alarming. The fact that some countries have growth rates at or around 4% (giving a doubling time of 18 or so years) should be a serious cause of concern in the next few years. The world as a whole has a growth rate of about 1.2%, meaning our population should double in about 70 years. Improving medical technology will only push this higher.

The widespread malnutrition and prevalence of diseases will only get worse in the future.
 
ok well thats what i assumed. For some reason it seemed like a question that i’d done in me strength of materials class.Is there no way to do this without ansys or some other Finite Element analysis program?Let me make the question simpler for youWe have a pressure isc cissp testing tube. This tube is ccie exam pressurized to 5000 PSI. its capped at both ends, one is a threaded cap, the other is welded on. in essence, im trying to build a containment system around this tube , so that if it pops, or something goes wrong, whatever flies out wont hurt anyone or destroy anything.The idea, for now, until its feasibility is destroyed, is to make a steel box.ive calculated the total mcpd questions PE of the air in the tube, and the idea behind my question is to know what thickness i should make my steel box.ONe idea i had is to simply get steel plating that is rated above 5000 psi. the tube itself is rated to above 5000 psi, so my reasoning is that whatever kinetic force 5000 PSI of my volume of air can generate, as long as the steel wall is rated to 5000 PSI, conservation of energy tells me that as that PE within the air is converted to KE, it wont be able to get through the wall if the wall can take the original PE. If anything, the projectile would lose energy to sound, heat, etc.
 
“Unlimited” growth rate is strange terminology, but the growth rate is truly alarming. The fact that some countries have growth rates at or around 4% (giving a doubling time of 18 or so years) should be a serious cause of concern in the next few years. The world as a whole has a growth rate of about 1.2%, meaning our population should double in about 70 years. Improving medical technology will only push this higher.
It is interesting that such faith is placed in medical technology to make us live longer and cause a perceived problem with the population; but no faith is given to advances in agricultural technology to feed the many.

It would seem the doomsayers of the population argument are decidedly one-sided in their thinking.
 
I think you don’t see the can of worms you’re opening.
Au contraire - there are so many issues bound up in the population question that it’s hard to know where to start, let alone stop.

It’s difficult to think of an environmental or social issue that is not somehow related to the sheer numbers of people on the planet - if people refuse to consider the issue, or think of it as somehow taboo, what happens?
It’s not that your question is simple, it’s that (despite your good intentions), your point of view is too narrow and you haven’t thought through the consequences of the supposedly ‘simple’ solutions of ‘just not reproducing’.
Also, your ‘personal opinion’ just doesn’t cut it here. You could be wrong, you know. The desire of men and women to marry and raise a family is a pretty ‘basic’ one; even the psychiatrists agree. And even if say John and Mary are so vapid and shallow that they just want to have children solely because 'well, people expect us to". . .do you really think that once the children arrive John and Mary can’t possibly become loving and capable parents? That people don’t mature, grow, and change for the better, but only for the worse?
There is all too much evidence that many people simply don’t magically morph into good parents when they have children. I would have thought the numbers of children in foster care and the number of cases dealt with by child protection agencies spoke for themselves.

The real problem is in how the issue is addressed. Economists and politicians are big fans of population growth, because they see dollars in it. All too often they don’t seem to consider the consequences of unfettered growth - not just for the human population, but for the rest of the planet. For example, how many people in the West realise that on average, their children will consume ten times the resources, in a lifetime, as children born in developing nations?

So what’s to be done? We have a clear indication that coercive measures are counterproductive in many ways, in the experience of the Chinese with their one-child policy. However, here in Australia, people are encouraged to have children with extremely generous baby bonuses - it’s very clear where our government stands on the issue.

Where does one draw the line? I simply don’t know. The ingrained belief seems to be that people have a ‘right’ to have children - but is it really a right, and how do the rights of the potential children figure in this supposition? People also talk about having a ‘duty’ to reproduce (particularly in a religious context) but I fail to see how this is valid. We’re hardly in danger of dying out, as a species. At present, however, it’s still seen by many as an aberration when someone opts out of reproducing - despite growing numbers of individuals and couples, at least in the Western world, who decide not to become parents.

Social research indicates that more educated women, who have more social and economic opportunities (not sure about men, but it may be the same story for them) tend to have fewer children. Perhaps that is the key.
 
It is interesting that such faith is placed in medical technology to make us live longer and cause a perceived problem with the population; but no faith is given to advances in agricultural technology to feed the many.

It would seem the doomsayers of the population argument are decidedly one-sided in their thinking.
Arable land and potable water are still required to support populations - these are finite resources (the land in particular). Until agricultural technology finds ways to cultivate plants and raise animals that require no nutrients, no growing space and no water, I think this will remain a problem. 🤷

Furthermore, it’s necessary to put thought into what other uses land might have had - vast areas of wildlife habitat have already been deforested and claimed for agricultural, industrial and residential use. I know there are people on this forum who don’t actually care about anything except humans, but habitat destruction is a problem for other sentient creatures, and therefore ought to be a matter of concern on compassionate grounds, to say nothing of environmental and biodiversity issues.
 
I think one thing being overlooked is that there are many *political *reasons to limit population, but not any *economic *reasons to do so.

In fact, the *opposite *is true. Reputable economists know that growth, development, and prosperity depend upon population growth-- and population density in particular.

There are many, many economists worried over our current population implosion. Most countries are below replacement fertility and continue to decline. Economists recognize the problems awaiting these countries. Productivity, prosperity, and sustainability depend upon population growth.

We have only catapulted ourselves out of subsistence living in the last 100 years, and this has been a combination of innovation and population growth and density. We are now going the other direction.
At yet many countries with vast populations are comparatively poor in terms of economy and infrastructure - consider many African nations, vast areas of rural China, India, South-East Asia. If wealth and economic resource distribution is poorly managed, globally speaking, the same must be said of human resources. And economists, I’m sorry to say, are not generally known for their concern about humanitarian and environmental issues…
 
It is interesting that such faith is placed in medical technology to make us live longer and cause a perceived problem with the population; but no faith is given to advances in agricultural technology to feed the many.

It would seem the doomsayers of the population argument are decidedly one-sided in their thinking.
With no major leaps, our population will double in 70 years. Food production is strained and affordable water is limited. Fun fact- when the oil dries up, so do our most effective fertilizers.
 
Arable land and potable water are still required to support populations - these are finite resources (the land in particular).
Our ability to utilize science to efficiently grow food to feed the population is not nearly as finite as people would have us believe.
Further, until 100% of the arable land is actually in use towards this goal, the problem is with distribution…not production.
…habitat destruction is a problem for other sentient creatures, and therefore ought to be a matter of concern on compassionate grounds, to say nothing of environmental and biodiversity issues.
Since it is you that have now made claim to other sentient creatures on this planet besides man, I believe it is your responsibility to show the evidence and proof of this.
Name these other creatures and please provide proof of their sentience.
 
With no major leaps, our population will double in 70 years. Food production is strained and affordable water is limited. Fun fact- when the oil dries up, so do our most effective fertilizers.
How one sided.

The claim is there that medical science will continue to progress and create problems.
Yet no such faith is placed upon agricultural science.
:confused:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top