A different Our Father hand holding question

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Let me say right off the bat, that my family does not hold hands during the Lords Prayer at Mass even though the majority do. Our Archbishop has not made a statement one way or another for our parish although many parishes near us are discouraging the trend. We are a very small parish and we mostly know each other pretty well. Most people know that we don’t hold hands and it isn’t an issue.

That’s not my question. :o

Today a man who is a “regular” but not someone I know by name was next to us. As usual, we bowed our heads and folded our hands to pray the Our Father. He tapped my shoulder repeatedly until I gave him my hand. No big deal. My question is, what would you “non hand holders” sugest I have done with the other hand? Orans posture? I just ended up holding the other hand where it was, accross my “middle,” but it was awkward.
 
I am only guessing, but I think I would gently whisper that I prefer to fold my hands. Insisting, however well-intentioned, is an imposition.

This gets to something else that bothers me about the hand-holding. As I understand it, there is canon law that bans the faithful from doing gestures that are exclusive to the celebrant. That would include the Orans posture. The U.S. bishops had voted to allow the laity to use this during the Our Father, but that was rejected by the Vatican. However, there was confusion because the version that was passed remained posted on the Internet for some time.

If I am correct, the posture should never be used by anyone other than the celebrant. Many people who don’t find another hand-holder end up in the same posture as the priest.
 
Hi,

I might have smiled and said, “no thank you.” If he persisted, I might even move—I really get distracted by people who force their preference on me, and I do want to discourage this arrogant behavior.

But if I didn’t, I think I would use the orans posturre for the other hand.

Lux
 
Georgia said:
As I understand it, there is canon law that bans the faithful from doing gestures that are exclusive to the celebrant. That would include the Orans posture.
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Actually it wouldn’t include the orans posture, since this is a prayer posture which has been an accepted prayer posture for lay persons.

These instructions are more for the manner of blessing. A lay person my not bless over the person or object as the priest does. The orans posture may not be allowed when praying for a blessing for someone or conducting a prayer service, I’m not sure about that, but I know it is allowed in personal prayer.

Lux
 
Most people at my small church also hold hands–that’s why I like to sit by myself (so I don’t have to).

Something I’ve noticed during the Our Father, when the priest uses the orans posture, our deacon crosses his hands over his heart and bows his head. I am on good enough terms to ask him about this (and will next Sunday).

Has anyone else seen this? Is this something we could do instead of hold hands or use the orans posture?

I’ll let you know what our deacon says next Sunday.
 
Lux_et_Tenebrae said:
Hi,

I might have smiled and said, “no thank you.” If he persisted, I might even move—I really get distracted by people who force their preference on me, and I do want to discourage this arrogant behavior.

Lux
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That would be my usual thought but this is a very elderly, sweet man (not arrogant) and I didn’t have the heart to do that. Also, as I mentioned, we are a very small church. I don’t ever want to do any thing that would be a distraction to others around me or to Father.
 
Corki said:
That would be my usual thought but this is a very elderly, sweet man (not arrogant) and I didn’t have the heart to do that. Also, as I mentioned, we are a very small church. I don’t ever want to do any thing that would be a distraction to others around me or to Father.
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I don’t hold hands, not even with my wife. However, in charity, if this had happened to me, I would take his hand. If I had refused or insisted, I would most likely have caused the poor man bewilderment and hurt, and that’s not something I want to do at Mass. I would then hold my other hand in a somewhat orans-like position.

It is most likely people who insist on grabbing your hand do so in ignorance, and not out of spite for the Church and her liturgy.

Sometimes, prudence and charity must prevail, even though we know it’s not really within the letter of the law. It’s for the pastors to slowly educate people why hand-holding is not appropriate for the Lord’s Prayer.
 
Corki said:
Let me say right off the bat, that my family does not hold hands during the Lords Prayer at Mass even though the majority do. Our Archbishop has not made a statement one way or another for our parish although many parishes near us are discouraging the trend. We are a very small parish and we mostly know each other pretty well. Most people know that we don’t hold hands and it isn’t an issue.

That’s not my question. :o

Today a man who is a “regular” but not someone I know by name was next to us. As usual, we bowed our heads and folded our hands to pray the Our Father. He tapped my shoulder repeatedly until I gave him my hand. No big deal. My question is, what would you “non hand holders” sugest I have done with the other hand? Orans posture? I just ended up holding the other hand where it was, accross my “middle,” but it was awkward.
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I’ll preface by saying I have no problem with people holding hands at the our father . I just prefer not to do it. I fold my hands and look straight ahead as soon as a great amen is finished and continue that posture until the end of the prayer whether I’m tapped on the shoulder not
 
I’m not a fan of the handholding myself. It’s not the end of the world to me, but it distracts me and I prefer not do it. One problem I had a few months back was I was visiting a neighboring parish and during the our father everyone held hands. The man next to me put his hand up and I went to grab it and he didn’t grab back. I didn’t realize he wasn’t interested in holding hands and it made for a very awkward and uncomfortable rest of the mass for me. I just could not focus after that. For me now the worst part of the hand holding is not my own distaste for it, but rather the awkward seconds in between figuring out if the person next to me is looking to hold hands or not.
 
The same thing has happened to me. While I avoid holding hands with anyone nearby except my wife, three or four times over the years, someone has done the same thing. I don’t think it a big deal since it hasn’t happened again with that person (though if it were a small church I wouldn’t go and sit next to him again). I admit that it would be very annoying though for someone to force himself on me in this way.
This sort of problem is a good reason why this practice should be eliminated. Mass is for worship. This practice is disturbing for many people. It is disruptive to worship. Some people like it, but it is good to think of other people.
 
I am very against hand holding it drives me bonkers. However in your situation I would have done exactly as you have.

The elderly somtimes are starved of human contact.

God bless you in doing the right thing.

Po
 
Quickly do a fake sneeze into that hand.

Works every time for me. 😃
 
THurifer2 said:
I am very against hand holding it drives me bonkers. However in your situation I would have done exactly as you have.

The elderly somtimes are starved of human contact.

God bless you in doing the right thing.

Po
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Do you realize that problem is with you and not the hand-holders?
 
Corki said:
Let me say right off the bat, that my family does not hold hands during the Lords Prayer at Mass even though the majority do. Our Archbishop has not made a statement one way or another for our parish although many parishes near us are discouraging the trend. We are a very small parish and we mostly know each other pretty well. Most people know that we don’t hold hands and it isn’t an issue.

That’s not my question. :o

Today a man who is a “regular” but not someone I know by name was next to us. As usual, we bowed our heads and folded our hands to pray the Our Father. He tapped my shoulder repeatedly until I gave him my hand. No big deal. My question is, what would you “non hand holders” sugest I have done with the other hand? Orans posture? I just ended up holding the other hand where it was, accross my “middle,” but it was awkward.
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I’m a bit unclear about your question. Does it really matter what you do with the other hand?

When I first started at my new Parish (selected because of it’s orthodoxy on this and other liturgical matters), I stood so rigidly during the Our Father that no one would DARE try to grab my hands. However, one Sunday, a regular member, who comes every week by himself via the ACCESS bus, reached his hand out to me. There was no one on his other side and I was the closest person to him, albeit 3 seats away. I ignored his “advances” although, from the corner of my eye, I could see that he was confused. He was an older man, sort of bent and feeble. Finally realizing I was not going to break my stoic posture, he gave up and dropped his hands.

I saw him outside after Mass, standing at the curb, in his pressed suit, waiting for his ACCESS ride. I imagined he was probably a widower, faithfully making his way to Mass every Sunday, probably seeking some human as well as spiritual contact. And I had refused him my hand. I wept all the way home.

No, I don’t like holding hands. Yes, I wish the practive would be forbidden once and for all. But in the meantime, I will never refuse a hand during the Our Father, even if it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

You did the right thing. And, btw, I just put my other hand on the rail of the pew in front of me.
 
Lepanto said:
Actually, the problem is with the hand-holders because they misunderstand the meaning of liturgical gestures.

Although this article is about the orans posture, it is pertinent here because the practice of hand-holding is the natural result of the entire assembly doing orans.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm
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Actually the problem is with you and that is lost on a great many.

Let’s review what you typed:
THurifer2 said:
I am very against hand holding it drives me bonkers…
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If someone is grabbing you or incessantly tapping on you that’s one thing, but to be driven bonkers by the sight of people holding hands or employing the oran positions is squarely on YOU, not them.
 
Did you even bother to read the article?

If you did, with what points of the article do you disagree and what are your refutations?
 
Lepanto said:
Did you even bother to read the article?

If you did, with what points of the article do you disagree and what are your refutations?
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This is not a matter of liturgical rubrics it’s a behavioral issue. The following was posted:
THurifer2 said:
I am very against hand holding it drives me bonkers…
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To which I responded that’s on THurifer2 not the hand holders. I then added if someone was grabbing your hand or incessantly tapping on your shoulder that’s one thing, but to be “driven bonkers” (in other words “upset”) at the sight of people holding hands or employing the orans during the Mass exhibits an issue with the person being upset, not the persons holdings hand and/or employing the orans position. You then responded with:
Lepanto said:
Actually, the problem is with the hand-holders because they misunderstand the meaning of liturgical gestures.

Although this article is about the orans posture, it is pertinent here because the practice of hand-holding is the natural result of the entire assembly doing orans.
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While I have read that work from Colin Donovan some time ago, I’ll point out two things.

First to be upset at the sight of the orans or people holding hands is wrong – even IF the practices were prohibited which they are not. Again, it’s a behavioral matter, not a liturgical one. It would be good to get an expert’s opinion as to why some get upset during Masses at seeing what they believe to be liturgical abuses and/or irregularities. While the answer to that questions might seem ridiculously obvious to some, it’s actually fairly complex from a psychological standpoint.

Second, Mr. Donovan is not the Holy See, USCCB, etc. He has an opinion – perhaps even an expert opinion, but it contravenes what the Church actually directs or fails to direct in this case.
 
Lepanto said:
Did you even bother to read the article?

If you did, with what points of the article do you disagree and what are your refutations?
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As Rickwood posted, this is not from the Vatican, or the USCCB.

When asked about Orans, the USCCB wrote
Many Catholics are in the habit of holding their hands in the “Orans” posture during the Lord’s prayer along with the celebrant. Some do this on their own as a private devotional posture while some congregations make it a general practice for their communities.
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Is this practice permissible under the current rubrics, either as a private practice not something adopted by a particular parish as a communal gesture?
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No position is prescribed in the present Sacramentary for an assembly gesture during the Lord’s Prayer.
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Email us at bcl@usccb.org
Secretariat for Divine Worship | 3211 4th Street, N.E., Washington DC 20017-1194 | (202) 541-3060 © USCCB. All rights reserved.
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Do you really think that if the Orans was a forbidden posture, the USCCB would have neglected to mention this?

Lux
 
Lux_et_Tenebrae said:
As Rickwood posted, this is not from the Vatican, or the USCCB.

When asked about Orans, the USCCB wrote

Do you really think that if the Orans was a forbidden posture, the USCCB would have neglected to mention this?

Lux
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Since no position is prescribed does that mean I can stand on my head during the Our Father?

JUST KIDDING! I dont have a dog in this hunt. 😃
 
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