A difficulty of theistic evolution

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Catechism 1022:
Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death
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Evolution teaches that every organism to ever live had parents (or one parent in the case of asexual species), with the first single celled organism being the ancestor of all living things and the only organism without parents.

So, if you are a Catholic and you hold the theistic evolution position, you must concede that at some point in the evolutionary process of human beings there were parents who did not experience an afterlife after death, who produced children who did experience an afterlife after death.

Can any Catholic who holds the theistic evolution position escape this difficulty?
 
Marocchino said:
Catechism 1022:

Evolution teaches that every organism to ever live had parents (or one parent in the case of asexual species), with the first single celled organism being the ancestor of all living things and the only organism without parents.

So, if you are a Catholic and you hold the theistic evolution position, you must concede that at some point in the evolutionary process of human beings there were parents who did not experience an afterlife after death, who produced children who did experience an afterlife after death.

Can any Catholic who holds the theistic evolution position escape this difficulty?
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I don’t think that’s too much of a difficulty. What’s the main difference between humans and gorillas on a theological scale? Humans have immortal souls. God glorified humans through the gift of immortal souls. Anything that doesn’t have an immortal soul wouldn’t receive an afterlife.
 
ConallCernach said:
Humans have immortal souls. God glorified humans through the gift of immortal souls.
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Are you arguing that immortality was something that was tacked on to the human soul at some point in evolutionary history, so that before this tacking on there were creatures with human bodies and human souls who did not experience an afterlife?

It has always been my understanding that immortality is the essence of the human soul, which means that it would be improper to speak of a human soul that ceased to exist at the moment of physical death.
 
Marocchino said:
Catechism 1022:

Evolution teaches that every organism to ever live had parents (or one parent in the case of asexual species), with the first single celled organism being the ancestor of all living things and the only organism without parents.

So, if you are a Catholic and you hold the theistic evolution position, you must concede that at some point in the evolutionary process of human beings there were parents who did not experience an afterlife after death, who produced children who did experience an afterlife after death.

Can any Catholic who holds the theistic evolution position escape this difficulty?
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There’s no difficulty. The difference between parents (who, by definition, were not human) and children (who, by definition, were) is that the children had human souls and the parents did not.
 
Marocchino said:
Are you arguing that immortality was something that was tacked on to the human soul at some point in evolutionary history, so that before this tacking on there were creatures with human bodies and human souls who did not experience an afterlife?
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Why do you use the dismissive term “tacked on”?
 
VociMike said:
Why do you use the dismissive term “tacked on”?
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That was the only term I could think of to express my idea. I do admit – it is not a very elegant term.
VociMike said:
The difference between parents (who, by definition, were not human) and children (who, by definition, were) is that the children had human souls and the parents did not.
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Okay, so let’s zoom in on this moment in theistic evolution when there was an ontological gap between the first humans and their parents. Did the parents’ souls only lack immortality, or did they also lack the faculties of rationality and free will, and the accompanying moral responsibility? In other words, did brutes give birth to humans?
 
Marocchino said:
Okay, so let’s zoom in on this moment in theistic evolution when there was an ontological gap between the first humans and their parents. Did the parents’ souls only lack immortality, or did they also lack the faculties of rationality and free will, and the accompanying moral responsibility? In other words, did brutes give birth to humans?
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I am not aware of any specific Church teaching in this regard. It would not be unreasonable to think that some essential evolutionary mutation in the pre-human->human line happened at the same time that God infused the first humans with souls. I would guess that only with the infusion of human souls does full human rationality and free will occur. I just don’t see any problem with the whole scenario.
 
It would appear that Adam and Eve are special creations. It is unclear that man is related to hominids.

Peace,
Ed
 
Marocchino said:
Catechism 1022:

Evolution teaches that every organism to ever live had parents (or one parent in the case of asexual species), with the first single celled organism being the ancestor of all living things and the only organism without parents.

So, if you are a Catholic and you hold the theistic evolution position, you must concede that at some point in the evolutionary process of human beings there were parents who did not experience an afterlife after death, who produced children who did experience an afterlife after death.

Can any Catholic who holds the theistic evolution position escape this difficulty?
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No, we don’t have to concede anything. 🙂 Neither science nor the Church has ever defined when human beings became human beings and not merely hominids, in the sense you mean. And yet, both agree that humans are different from other hominids in substantial ways: intelligence, self awareness, ability to make elaborate plan, to wonder at our own existence, thoughtful creativity, concern for the future of our species, etc.

What the Church teaches is that all human beings are the descendants of one couple who had the living breath of God breathed into them, making them eternal souls and not merely animated souls. This couple chose to violate God’s law and thus brought death and judgment upon themselves and their descendants.
 
VociMike said:
It would not be unreasonable to think that some essential evolutionary mutation in the pre-human->human line happened at the same time that God infused the first humans with souls. I would guess that only with the infusion of human souls does full human rationality and free will occur. I just don’t see any problem with the whole scenario.
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The problem that I see is with irrational and amoral pre-humans rearing rational humans.
 
Della said:
Neither science nor the Church has ever defined when human beings became human beings and not merely hominids, in the sense you mean.
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Yet,
Della said:
What the Church teaches is that all human beings are the descendants of one couple who had the living breath of God breathed into them, making them eternal souls and not merely animated souls.
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That is exactly the sense I mean: when the living breath was breathed into the first humans making them immortal souls.
 
Marocchino said:
The problem that I see is with irrational and amoral pre-humans rearing rational humans.
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But not just irrational and amoral pre-humans. God was also intimately involved, according to divine revelation.
 
There is no requirement that God breathed the Human Soul into the first humans at conception. This is an act outside of evolution.

God may have breathed the soul into adult beings and creating Rational, Moral beings.
 
Marocchino said:
That is exactly the sense I mean: when the living breath was breathed into the first humans making them immortal souls.
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When God either created “from scratch” or chose a couple of hominids into which he breathed the breathe of eternal life. Before that doesn’t matter one way or the other, since we are all descendants of that one couple.
 
Della said:
Before that doesn’t matter one way or the other, since we are all descendants of that one couple.
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I cannot think of one evolutionist who espouses monogenism. Evolutionists speak of mitochondrial Eve and Y chromosome Adam, but not in the sense of one couple who gave birth to Cain, Abel, Seth, and eventually all of humankind. They speak of mito. Eve and Y Adam as living tens of thousands of years apart.
 
Marocchino said:
I cannot think of one evolutionist who espouses monogenism. Evolutionists speak of mitochondrial Eve and Y chromosome Adam, but not in the sense of one couple who gave birth to Cain, Abel, Seth, and eventually all of humankind. They speak of mito. Eve and Y Adam as living tens of thousands of years apart.
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According to the latest theory by some scientists, yes? Well, within my short lifetime of 60 years I’ve seen many a theory come and go. Science does not know enough about the origins of humankind to say anything definitively. And the Church, apart from the statement it has made, doesn’t either. Either the Church is right or it isn’t. Science does not say for certain because it cannot. I truly doubt it ever will, any more than it will ever be able to tell us with certainty about many things. Science can only hypothesize, observe, experiment, etc. It does not and cannot make many definitive statements about much of anything, really. And that’s fine. There’s no reason it should nor any reason the Church needs to say more than it has, either. 🤷
 
Marocchino said:
I cannot think of one evolutionist who espouses monogenism. Evolutionists speak of mitochondrial Eve and Y chromosome Adam, but not in the sense of one couple who gave birth to Cain, Abel, Seth, and eventually all of humankind. They speak of mito. Eve and Y Adam as living tens of thousands of years apart.
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What they don’t speak of is human souls, and who received them and when, which is the real issue here.
 
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