A dilemma with Lucifer and his fall

[Zatzat]

It should come as no surprise that I don’t believe in the fall of Lucifer. However, Catholics do believe in Lucifer and his angels that fell with him, so I ask you;

How does it make any sense that Lucifer and his angels, would have tried to wage a war against God?

1. Lucifer was well aware that he was waging a war against an omnipotent and omniscient God.

Not only would Lucifer know that God was indestructible, unbeatable, but that God would know exactly how, when and where Lucifer would attack.

Knowing what Lucifer knew, why would Lucifer have bothered to wage a war?

I’ve got a strong feeling that I may hear about Lucifers ’ pride ', but that’s just not going to cut it.

Sure, let’s say Lucifer had all the pride in existence!! All that pride wouldn’t have made Lucifer stupid, ignorant or forgetful that God was all powerful and all knowing and that God was 100% unbeatable.

1. God created Lucifer, even thought he knew that Lucifer would rebel and that he’d have to create Hell to contain him. Even though God knew these things, he created Lucifer anyway.

The story just doesn’t make sense? How do Christians reconcile this?

 

[presidentjlh]

You wouldn’t think it, but with enough pride, one will do some stupid things.

You ever wonder why some people seem to push the envelope way too often? Pride. They think they are invincible.

Satan is smart in some aspects, but in the grand scheme of things, he’s the biggest moron in all existance.

As to your second question, free will is a very difficult thing, and I honestly must say, I do not know.

However, I seek the truth as much as I can.

 

[Areopagite]

It should come as no surprise that I don’t believe in the fall of Lucifer. However, Catholics do believe in Lucifer and his angels that fell with him, so I ask you;

How does it make any sense that Lucifer and his angels, would have tried to wage a war against God?

1. Lucifer was well aware that he was waging a war against an omnipotent and omniscient God.

Not only would Lucifer know that God was indestructible, unbeatable, but that God would know exactly how, when and where Lucifer would attack.

Knowing what Lucifer knew, why would Lucifer have bothered to wage a war?

I’ve got a strong feeling that I may hear about Lucifers ’ pride ', but that’s just not going to cut it.

Sure, let’s say Lucifer had all the pride in existence!! All that pride wouldn’t have made Lucifer stupid, ignorant or forgetful that God was all powerful and all knowing and that God was 100% unbeatable.

1. God created Lucifer, even thought he knew that Lucifer would rebel and that he’d have to create Hell to contain him. Even though God knew these things, he created Lucifer anyway.

The story just doesn’t make sense? How do Christians reconcile this?

One thing Lucifer can do is tempt souls to go to hell. And it’s likely that he has succeeded sometimes.

Also, God doesn’t know what a hypothetical creature will necessarily choose. God only knows what an actually created creature will choose. Hence, God only knew what Satan was going to choose because God created him.

Those are just some thoughts.

 

[Erin_Anne]

We’ll turn to Catechism for this, and I’m sure it will come as a disappointment, but the answer is, simply, Pride - with a side order of envy.

*How to read the account of the fall

390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265

II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”.267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: "You will be like God."270 The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.271

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272

394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls “a murderer from the beginning”, who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father.273 "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."274 In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.

395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God’s reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."275 *

Per St. Thomas, “the first sin of the angel can be none other than pride.” Lucifer was so “inflated with pride, he wished to be called God” “Without doubt the angel sinned by seeking to be as God.”

He wanted to be as God in his likeness.

264 Cf. GS 13 § 1.
265 Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1513; Pius XII: DS 3897; Paul VI: AAS 58 (1966), 654.
266 Cf. Gen 3:1-5; Wis 2:24.
267 Cf Jn 8:44; Rev 12:9.
268 Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 800.
269 Cf. 2 Pet 2:4.
270 Gen 3:5.
271 1 Jn 3:8; Jn 8:44.
272 St. John Damascene, De Fide orth. 2,4: PG 94,877.
273 Jn 8:44; cf. Mt 4:1-11.
274 1 Jn 3:8.
275 Rom 8:28.

 

[Zatzat]

You wouldn’t think it, but with enough pride, one will do some stupid things.

You ever wonder why some people seem to push the envelope way too often? Pride. They think they are invincible.

No matter how prideful, no sane person would believe they could bare handed defeat an army tank.

Satan is smart in some aspects, but in the grand scheme of things, he’s the biggest moron in all existance.

I’d though Lucifer was one of Gods top angels? Why would God have a top angel, let alone any angel that was a moron. I’ve not once heard that angels go to school, so obviously the intelligence they have, clearly came from God. Again, why would God create a moronic angel?

 

[presidentjlh]

I’d though Lucifer was one of Gods top angels? Why would God have a top angel, let alone any angel that was a moron. I’ve not once heard that angels go to school, so obviously the intelligence they have, clearly came from God. Again, why would God create a moronic angel?

He may have been smart, but was he wise? I’ve seen intelligent people unwisely rationalize all the time. I think Satan probably rationalized into thinking he could overcome God.

 

[Zatzat]

We’ll turn to Catechism for this, and I’m sure it will come as a disappointment, but the answer is, simply, Pride - with a side order of envy.

I read your post carefully, thanks for taking the time. Yes, I suppose it is somewhat disappointing, as I cannot begin to comprehend how ones pride can cause them to forget or ignore that their waging a war against an indestructible, all knowing and all powerful God in all of existence!

It just doesn’t add up…

 

[Zatzat]

He may have been smart, but was he wise? I’ve seen intelligent people unwisely rationalize all the time. I think Satan probably rationalized into thinking he could overcome God.

Again, it wouldn’t be a philosophical dilemma…Just imagine Lucifer as he was rallying his fellow rebellious angels.

Lucifer -

God is indestructible, all powerful and all knowing. Not only that, but God knows about our battle plans and he’s even listening in on our pre-battle plan meeting…actually Gods sitting in the 2nd row, ’ hi God!’

Anyway, back to our meeting…Another thing, as we’re staging for battle, God could simply will all of us out of existence or instantly destroy us. Then there’s that whole ’ Gods known for all of eternity that I’m going to take him on…’

All that being said, I’m so prideful, I think I can beat God in war…whose with me!!!

When you really break it down, there’s no darn way that Lucifer would have gone ahead with it.

You know what would have been a believable and better story? Lucifer just chose to walk away, no battle, no war, no St Micheal fighting…that would be more believable.

 

[presidentjlh]

Again, it wouldn’t be a philosophical dilemma…Just imagine Lucifer as he was rallying his fellow rebellious angels.

Lucifer -
When you really break it down, there’s no darn way that Lucifer would have gone ahead with it.

You know what would have been a believable and better story? Lucifer just chose to walk away, no battle, no war, no St Micheal fighting…that would be more believable.

Well, that’s always possible in some sense, as long as we recognize that Lucifer willingly chose to reject God.

I did find that thing about Satan rallying his troops to be quite funny though.

 

[Erin_Anne]

Well, it really is something that we as humans will never be able to wrap our heads around. Lucifer/Satan isn’t your run of the mill individual.

The Prayer to St. Michael (defending us from Satan) comes to us through interesting means:
"On October 13, 1884, after Pope Leo XIII had finished celebrating Mass in the Vatican Chapel, attended by a few Cardinals and members of the Vatican staff, he suddenly stopped at the foot of the altar. He stood there for about 10 minutes, as if in a trance, his face ashen white. Then, going immediately from the Chapel to his office, he composed the prayer to St. Michael, with instructions it be said after all Low Masses everywhere. When asked what had happened, he explained that, as he was about to leave the foot of the altar, he suddenly heard voices - two voices, one kind and gentle, the other guttural and harsh. They seemed to come from near the tabernacle. As he listened, he heard the following conversation:

Satan: “I can destroy your Church”

Lord: “You can? Then go ahead and do so.”

Satan: “To do so, I need more time and more power.”

Lord: "How much time? How much power?

Satan: “75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over to my service.”

Lord: “You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will.” *

Interestingly enough, Satan is (in so many words) asking God’s permission to attempt to destroy the Church - and God grants it, because he (God) knows that he will ultimately prevail - he also knows souls will be lost to Satan in the process…but such is the great mystery of God, Faith, and so on…

 

[Dtmccameron]

I read your post carefully, thanks for taking the time. Yes, I suppose it is somewhat disappointing, as I cannot begin to comprehend how ones pride can cause them to forget or ignore that their waging a war against an indestructible, all knowing and all powerful God in all of existence!

It just doesn’t add up…

The way I understand it ( and my understanding is worth a whole heapin’ lot!) Or, rather, the way it was explained to me, the angels had an imperfect knowledge of the true, omnipotent nature of God, and probably the “all-good” part as well, prior to the War in Heaven (which might be either the most epic or anti-climactic war ever) and the Fall.

Afterwards, the Fallen were eternally separated from God, and the 2/3s left were granted a greater knowledge of Him, pretty much ensuring their loyalty. After all, knowing even what we do of Him, rebellion against the “Almighty” is a bad idea. Knowing what they do of Him, and loving Him as they do, makes it impossible.

Not seeing the whole picture, then, is what lead to Lucifer’s getting all high and mighty, and having the wrath of the Almighty come down upon him must’ve surely put ‘the fear of God’ into him!

Or maybe not. Yeah, maybe he thinks he was just unlucky the first time.

 

[1WATCHER]

Sure, let’s say Lucifer had all the pride in existence!! All that pride wouldn’t have made Lucifer stupid, ignorant or forgetful that God was all powerful and all knowing and that God was 100% unbeatable.

1. God created Lucifer, even thought he knew that Lucifer would rebel and that he’d have to create Hell to contain him. Even though God knew these things, he created Lucifer anyway.

The story just doesn’t make sense? How do Christians reconcile this?

You answered your own question Sir, and even for those who also don’t see the fall of satan or believe as you… and then we see this example manytimes on the likeness of humans who also follow the method of reasoning satan did, that they know exactly what they are doing and exactly where they will end up or so think. It will only be foolishness when they end up where they never believed existed I PITY THEM and pray for their conversion.

All of us were created “just as you know to be true by GOD (by your own typed words)” and yet when we fall short daily, we are still are allowed the opporunity to reconcile to him each time we breath in and out. And then again when each of us fail morally to those who do not believe in God. Why are we allowed to live another moment, if as scriptures says Gods love is so great he allows the rain to fall on the rightious and unrightious… imagine that…!

 

[MACHIU]

I’d go back to the reason why some angels went up against God.

As they are pure spiritual being, they transcend above time-space and have knowledge, understanding and intellect more than we can comprehend - millions times over. Why they did what they did, we can only guess and only dream to comprehend.

When given the vision of Incarnation, some of the angels cannot take it. How can a more powerful, holier and better being must worship mere human-being that cannot even maintain holiness.

Well, some angel are pro and some against. Lucifer led the bad angels, lost and cast out of heaven.

Cut out from God’s Love but remain spiritual beings, they became what we call evil spirit, devils, etc. They no longer had the knowledge, understanding and intellect as before but still more that we can comprehend, again millions time over.

They still regards God as Almighty, All-Powerful and the Creator of them, but out of their own pride, refuse to worship the Son of Man - a human.

I do not remember where I know this from and I’d appreciate anyone that can give reference to this.

God Bless

 

[puzzleannie]

It should come as no surprise that I don’t believe in the fall of Lucifer. However, Catholics do believe in Lucifer and his angels that fell with him, so I ask you;

How does it make any sense that Lucifer and his angels, would have tried to wage a war against God?

The story just doesn’t make sense? How do Christians reconcile this?

what is to reconcile? we are not obligated to make sense of everything related in the Bible, just to believe it. Why is this story any different than the exceedingly repetetive theme in the bible of humans rebelling against God, which is the theme of the whole book? It makes no sense that we should go on doing so time after time, but we do it. Why should we be surprised if angels did it once?

 

[Verbum_Caro]

zatzat,

I’m not sure we are told what happened in Heaven. . .

Do you have in mind that Lucifer actually tried to fight God – take up arms (in some sense) against him? Try to overpower Him?

Why do you think that, or think that Catholics think that?

VC

 

[Boxie]

The last post had a point he lets the rain fall on the good and bad. But i feel that satan knew Good so well he knew he could do this and get away with it because God is a very forgiven God an also gave him everything and greed made him want more, like the very seat that God sits on. Of all the nerve! And it also helped God to find out if weather what he made realy did love him or would love the thngs of this world more and you know the answer to that.

 

[momor]

I’d go back to the reason why some angels went up against God.

As they are pure spiritual being, they transcend above time-space and have knowledge, understanding and intellect more than we can comprehend - millions times over. Why they did what they did, we can only guess and only dream to comprehend.

When given the vision of Incarnation, some of the angels cannot take it. How can a more powerful, holier and better being must worship mere human-being that cannot even maintain holiness.

Well, some angel are pro and some against. Lucifer led the bad angels, lost and cast out of heaven.

Cut out from God’s Love but remain spiritual beings, they became what we call evil spirit, devils, etc. They no longer had the knowledge, understanding and intellect as before but still more that we can comprehend, again millions time over.

They still regards God as Almighty, All-Powerful and the Creator of them, but out of their own pride, refuse to worship the Son of Man - a human.

I do not remember where I know this from and I’d appreciate anyone that can give reference to this.

God Bless

The revelation comes from the Blessed Mother as told to Sr, Mary of Agreda in the Mystical City of God.

sacredheart.com/The_Mystical_City_of_God_Book_01_Chapter_03.htm

 

[Verbum_Caro]

I do not remember where I know this from and I’d appreciate anyone that can give reference to this.

My impression is that this idea comes from (at least most famously) Milton’s Paradise Lost, Book V: Hear all ye Angels, Progenie of Light, 600 ]
Thrones, Dominations, Princedoms, Vertues, Powers,
Hear my Decree, which unrevok’t shall stand.
This day I have begot whom I declare
My onely Son, and on this holy Hill
Him have anointed, whom ye now behold 605 ]
At my right hand; your Head I him appoint;
And by my Self have sworn to him shall bow
All knees in Heav’n, and shall confess him Lord:
Under his great Vice-gerent Reign abide
United as one individual Soule 610 ]
For ever happie: him who disobeyes
Mee disobeyes, breaks union, and that day
Cast out from God and blessed vision, falls
Into utter darkness, deep ingulft, his place
Ordaind without redemption, without end. 615 ]
So spake th’ Omnipotent, and with his words
All seemd well pleas’d, all seem’d, but were not all.

VC

 

[Detales]

Zatzat, I think your dilemma is well founded. However, it is founded, as far as I can see, on the predication that Lucifer’s “fall” was an actual historical event with God and Lucifer as the main characters on stage.

What if this is not the only, ore even practical or useful view? What if, as was the wont of Biblical and other tradition’s story tellers, to use a parable to get a point across? Now we know that the teaching language of the times and places of the Biblical authors had at least three distinct levels of interpretation. A good study and explications of this idea is found in Maurice Nicolls The New Man: some interpretations of the miracles and parables of Christ.

In all sincerity, the story of the fall of Lucifer is great drama, a la Zoroastrianism’s good and evil gods. On the other hand the same story is a valuable hint in the process of transformation, of which religion is a first step.

Lucifer means “Light Bearer.” In this story the bearer of Light is a specific state of Awareness, that state being in fact the object of the end of religions if they are interpreted in the esoteric way, which is rare. But the “fall” can be seen as the evolution of the mind of Man into that state which perceives subject/object relationships as distinct from instinctual reactions found in animals. This means we have the ability to “see” into the past ans future with our mental faculties, as well as exercise the most human and most ignored of all faculties we have. This is the faculty of being able to step outside of ourselves and view ourselves as a phenomenon within our own awareness. This allows critical thinking about our circumstances free from the kind of involuntary attachment the is the instinct of animals.

However, this new ability had a cost: it bumped the considerations of Man from a reactive, simple, at one with Nature state into one where he had to calculate. This calculative ability cost Man the feeling of being at One with nature. It could be said that the Light bearing faculty, the feeling of Unity, fell by dint of the involvement of having to find one’s own way in the world. So the 3-D world won out in favor of the world of simply being present and reacting.

It is this involvement with the 3-D that distracts us from the actual work of salvation, which is the re-gaining of the feeling of Unity, but from an elevated and more complete standpoint.

That is another view, anyway, and may throw a wrench in the pious and habitual thinking of some, but it is worth considering. Go figure.

 

[Zatzat]

Zatzat, I think your dilemma is well founded. However, it is founded, as far as I can see, on the predication that Lucifer’s “fall” was an actual historical event with God and Lucifer as the main characters on stage.

I’ve been inside a Roman Catholic Church where one of the stained glass windows depicted a victorious St Michael holding a spear and standing over Lucifer.

If it wasn’t a real event, where St Micheal physically defeated Lucifer, why would the Church authorize putting up a picture of the event in a Church.

Also, why would a Church allow this depiction to take place and put it in a Church, when the Catholic Church clearly believes that Angles don’t have physical bodies and are pure spirit.

If it possibly didn’t happen…why would the Church allow pictures in their houses of worship that depict the event as a physical reality?