A dilemma with Lucifer and his fall

[tonyrey]

I’ve been inside a Roman Catholic Church where one of the stained glass windows depicted a victorious St Michael holding a spear and standing over Lucifer.

If it wasn’t a real event, where St Micheal **physically **defeated Lucifer, why would the Church authorize putting up a picture of the event in a Church.

Why physically? The lust for power need not be expressed in visible actions… Even in this world you’re in heaven or hell according to the way you think. Everything depends on your state of mind. If you’re negative you’ll get what you deserve - nothing!

Also, why would a Church allow this depiction to take place and put it in a Church, when the Catholic Church clearly believes that Angles don’t have physical bodies and are pure spirit.

If it possibly didn’t happen…why would the Church allow pictures in their houses of worship that depict the event as a physical reality?

How else do you expect it to be depicted? Intangibly?

 

[Zatzat]

How else do you expect it to be depicted? Intangibly?

Either it happened or it didn’t. I’ve just read, within this very thread, that it is quite possible that the event never took place.

Why would a Church propagate a mythical event as a historical fact?

 

[tonyrey]

Either it happened or it didn’t. I’ve just read, within this very thread, that it is quite possible that the event never took place.

“place” is the operative word! It certainly didn’t occur in a physical location. There is no reason to believe God cannot create spiritual beings with free will…

Why would a Church propagate a mythical event as a historical fact?

Symbolism is a powerful tool. You may not realise we don’t have to believe Eve was tempted to eat an apple by a serpent. The significant fact is that we are free to choose between good and evil - which are not human inventions but the positive and negative aspects of reality. We either create or destroy, love or hate, bring happiness or misery into the world…

 

[o_mlly]

It should come as no surprise that I don’t believe in the fall of Lucifer. However, Catholics do believe in Lucifer and his angels that fell with him, so I ask you;

How does it make any sense that Lucifer and his angels, would have tried to wage a war against God?

1. Lucifer was well aware that he was waging a war against an omnipotent and omniscient God.

Not only would Lucifer know that God was indestructible, unbeatable, but that God would know exactly how, when and where Lucifer would attack… ?

We do not believe the angels are omniscient. Lacking bodies, their knowledge comes not from senses but from an infusion from God – a sort of telepathic communication.

We are now in our test and God chooses to remaim somewhat hidden from our senses. If He revealed Himself completely to us, our free will would not be tested but rather, I think, overwhelmed by His goodness. Why not the same condition for the angel’s test?

 

[TomD123]

First of all, the fall did happen. Our understanding of it is limited because we do not fully know what the angels knew at the time (if their experience of time was the same as ours). Angels are spiritual beings but there is no way to depict spiritual beings without physical pictures.

1. The answer is pride- Lucifer, being very arrogant, wanted to be God, he knew he was not God so he became very angry and full of hatred for God. Spiritual warfare is not the same as the example you gave of a man battling a tank. Lucifer did not try to battle God out of existence. Spiritual warfare is the “battle” over humanity or over where our souls go. Lucifer, full of hatred, wanted to mess up God’s plan by bringing souls away from him by tempting them.
2. Hell is the state of being separated from God for eternity. When Lucifer rejected God he made Hell for himself. The reason God creates an individual person (or angel in this case) is not always clear to us because we do not have the knowledge that God does. We do know that God brings good out of bad situations. My theory is that God created Lucifer and even though Lucifer may tempt various people, he also pushes many souls away without even realizing it because of his pride, so in the end, Lucifer helps God, but that is just my theory on Lucifer.

Lastly, you are doing the same thing Lucifer did- rejecting God even though he is all powerful, all knowing, etc.

 

[Detales]

Zatzat~“Why would a Church propagate a mythical event as a historical fact?
Reply With Quote” Because myth is the tool humans use to propagate idesa and psychological patterns. They are in this way related to parables. And you only need to look at political and other cartoons to see that personification of ideas is a common device to get perspectives communicated. Because there is a picture of a dynamic as a stained glass window doesn’t mean that it was an event. It means that there is something that is about our human nature that needs to be transmitted. It is put in the form of a story so that it can be penetrated through its levels according to the need and ability of the viewer.

 

[zebbediahdaniel]

Why is this story any different than the exceedingly repetetive theme in the bible of humans rebelling against God, which is the theme of the whole book? It makes no sense that we should go on doing so time after time, but we do it. Why should we be surprised if angels did it once?

Lastly, you are doing the same thing Lucifer did- rejecting God even though he is all powerful, all knowing, etc.

Zatzat’s question is great and one of the reasons I am not RC. To answer the former, it is different because the Angels were not morons, they were beings who knew God, knew his power, his glory, and they new their position within it. We, on the other hand, do not. We do not know god, we do not know his glory, and we do not know our position relative to god. Sure, some of us think we do. But when pressed they get defensive…

Addressing the latter quote by TomD, I see nothing in Zatzat’s statements that warrant the accusation he is rejecting God. Zatzat asked a question. I am surprised at your umbrage.

Zatzat,
As your hypothesis states as a premise the actual fall, there are some conclusions one can come up with that our only logical. Whatever Lucifer was going to do, he thought he had a realistic chance of getting it. Perhaps even, even God knows he will succeed. As you suggest, God being omnipotent and omniscient would know this from ‘the beginning’ (if such a beginning exists). Perhaps an understanding of what Lucifer hopes to accomplish with his rebellion would add to the discussion. Lucifer rebelled. He rebelled against something. To say he rebelled against God is like saying he rebelled against a wall. It would seem that Lucifer was rebelling against something God wanted to do, some part of the will of God. The most specific account of this is Isaiah 14. From this we can assert:

1. Lucifer was a mighty angel.
2. He was not in Heaven because he wanted to ascend into Heaven
   2a) this Heaven also had a ‘mount of the congregation’. What is that? While Isaiah is using the Babylonian mythological mountain that is the seat of the Gods, when one combines this with 'in the sides of the north" from Ps 48:2 we can see this is a reference to Mt. Zion.
3. There were some in Heaven besides God (because he wanted to exalt his throne above the stars of God)…kinda makes you wonder what these stars of God are
4. While he did not want to overthrow or replace God, he wanted to be like God.
5. Given ‘2a’ above, we know that Zion will not come until after the Savior comes in His Full Power and Glory, at the ‘end of time’; we can suggest that Lucifer wanted part of the Glory that would either arise from the Saviors salvation and one dedicated to man who lived in mortality, walked in Faith, and died in Christ, while having done none of this; or he wanted to circumvent the entire process and skip from being an angel to a resurrected glorified man without going through the Christ to get their.

This is also quite interesting. As you say, it would make no sense for Lucifer to go through all this trouble for something that doesn’t even exist. Even granting that Lucifer has no chance of getting this, it still bears considering that such a thing did exist. It almost seems to assert that Angels can become resurrected beings…how is this possible. I thought angels were, well angels.

This latter is also quite interesting, what was that difference between Lucifer and God that Lucifer wanted to be? Why would Lucifer think he could get this? (And please, no statements about being a moron, that’s just silly). I do get his pride dictated his actions, but not his rationale. Anyway, just some idle thoughts.

 

[tonyrey]

Zatzat’s question is great and one of the reasons I am not RC. To answer the former, it is different because the Angels were not morons, they were beings who knew God, knew his power, his glory, and they knew their position within it. We, on the other hand, do not. We do not know God, we do not know his glory, and we do not know our position relative to God.

You are assuming the fallen angels knew the full power and glory of God - which is by no means certain.

This latter is also quite interesting, what was that difference between Lucifer and God that Lucifer wanted to be? Why would Lucifer think he could get this?

The difference was that Lucifer did** not** have his own kingdom and absolute power over it whereas God does. He knew he could get it because he also knew we are created in God’simage and have been given free will which enables us to defy Him for all eternity. Don’t you enjoy being your own boss, doing things your own way and having to answer to no one but yourself? It is very easy to underestimate the lust for power which is the cause of much of the unnecessary misery in the world.

 

[Detales]

Tonyrey, your statement *He knew he could get it because he also knew we are created in God’s image and have been given free will which enables us to defy Him for all eternity. Don’t you enjoy being your own boss, doing things your own way and having to answer to no one but yourself? It is very easy to underestimate the lust for power which is the cause of much of the unnecessary misery in the world. * is an interpretation, I would say, from the standpoint of piety, and therefore is superficial. I would expect something deeper from you by now.

Yes, the lust for power is part of the bifold prime directive of the immature human mind: 1)survive; 2)be right at any cost. Religions have been impotent at growing folks out of this immaturity by their misguided efforts based on–guess what–lust for power based on fear ins ignorance.

 

[Zatzat]

You are assuming the fallen angels knew the full power and glory of God - which is by no means certain.

A homo sapien is able to grasp that what an angel can’t? In fairness to angels, they’re being portrayed as being quite thick in this thread.

He knew he could get it because he also knew we are created in God’simage and have been given free will which enables us to defy Him for all eternity

If angels are in fact intellectually delayed, then I suppose yes, Lucifer could have thought he’d be able to defeat an undefeatable God.

Don’t you enjoy being your own boss, doing things your own way and having to answer to no one but yourself? It is very easy to underestimate the lust for power which is the cause of much of the unnecessary misery in the world.

You make your God sound like he’s a dictator and doesn’t want to share his lordship.

 

[Thing]

A homo sapien is able to grasp that what an angel can’t? In fairness to angels, they’re being portrayed as being quite thick in this thread.

If angels are in fact intellectually delayed, then I suppose yes, Lucifer could have thought he’d be able to defeat an undefeatable God.

You make your God sound like he’s a dictator and doesn’t want to share his lordship.

Are’nt people making a lot of assumptions here and basing their ideas on assumptions. As one example goes; Only God knows the day and hour of the end of this world and of time. Not the angels nor the son of God but only God knew that. We don’t know what knowledge God allowed the angels when He created them, enough to choose freely and fairly I suspect, as with humans.

 

[tonyrey]

You are assuming the fallen angels knew the full power and glory of God - which is by no means certain.

Where you get the notion that a human being can grasp the full power and glory of God?
You cannot even grant the possibility that He exists! Angels are not thick but neither are they omniscient…

He knew he could get it because he also knew we are created in God’simage and have been given free will which enables us to defy Him for all eternity

If angels are in fact intellectually delayed, then I suppose yes, Lucifer could have thought he’d be able to defeat an undefeatable God.

It was not a question of defeating God but setting up a rival kingdom.

Don’t you enjoy being your own boss, doing things your own way and having to answer to no one but yourself? It is very easy to underestimate the lust for power which is the cause of much of the unnecessary misery in the world.

You make your God sound like he’s a dictator and doesn’t want to share his lordship.

You are mistaken. I’m referring to Lucifer not God! God wouldn’t have shared His power with us if He were the monster you make Him out to be… But perhaps that’s due to your notion of power - which excludes love…

 

[tonyrey]

Tonyrey, your statement *He knew he could get it because he also knew we are created in God’s image and have been given free will which enables us to defy Him for all eternity. Don’t you enjoy being your own boss, doing things your own way and having to answer to no one but yourself? It is very easy to underestimate the lust for power which is the cause of much of the unnecessary misery in the world. * is an interpretation, I would say, from the standpoint of piety, and therefore is superficial. I would expect something deeper from you by now.

It’s easy to allege that an interpretation is based on piety and is superficial but to substantiate that allegation is rather more demanding…

Yes, the lust for power is part of the bifold prime directive of the immature human mind: 1)survive; 2)be right at any cost. Religions have been impotent at growing folks out of this immaturity by their misguided efforts based on–guess what–lust for power based on fear ins ignorance.

Once again you need to substantiate this allegation…

 

[Detales]

Both are simple, Tonyrey, just look at the history of our Church.

 

[tonyrey]

Both are simple, Tonyrey, just look at the history of our Church.

Then you need to produce your superior interpretation!

 

[Zatzat]

Where you get the notion that a human being can grasp the full power and glory of God?
You cannot even grant the possibility that He exists! Angels are not thick but neither are they omniscient…

They need only know that God is omniscient…do humans actually possess more knowledge about God than angels?

It was not a question of defeating God but setting up a rival kingdom.

Again, nonsensical…God could will all the angels and the new Kingdom out of existence…instantly. ( We know this, but Gods very own angels don’t?)

You are mistaken. I’m referring to Lucifer not God! God wouldn’t have shared His power with us if He were the monster you make Him out to be… But perhaps that’s due to your notion of power - which excludes love…

True power is given to the people and not held firmly and perpetually in the grasp of one.

 

[Detales]

Sorry Tonyrey, I don’t do other folk’s homework.

 

[tonyrey]

Where you get the notion that a human being can grasp the full power and glory of God?
You cannot even grant the possibility that He exists! Angels are not thick but neither are they omniscient…

For all we know they may be unaware of that. And what difference would it make? They also know they have free will and the temptation to have absolute power still exists…

Do humans actually possess more knowledge about God than angels?

How could we possibly know that? I have no idea nor does it matter…

It was not a question of defeating God but setting up a rival kingdom.

God could will all the angels and the new Kingdom out of existence…instantly.

He could but God is not inconsistent. It would defeat the purpose of making them free to choose for themselves. God doesn’t do things by halves!

You are mistaken. I’m referring to Lucifer not God! God wouldn’t have shared His power with us if He were the monster you make Him out to be… But perhaps that’s due to your notion of power - which excludes love…

True power is given to the people and not held firmly and perpetually in the grasp of one.

Indeed. That’s why we have the power to reject belief in God - and even God Himself… He is not the proud autocrat you imagine Him to be… lacking love and compassion for His children…

 

[TomD123]

I think that this thread is not about the actual question of Lucifer and Hell, because you don’t believe in either. If every answer you get your just going to argue with then this thread was really about trying to prove Catholicism is false-which you can’t because its true.

 

[Detales]

TomD123, Whom are you addressing? Catholicism is true for you, because and only because you believe it. It, as a belief system is no way an absolute, no mater how much you try to interpret the world only through its tiny lens.