A dilemma with Lucifer and his fall

[Charlemagne_II]

Zatzat

Sure, let’s say Lucifer had all the pride in existence!! All that pride wouldn’t have made Lucifer stupid, ignorant or forgetful that God was all powerful and all knowing and that God was 100% unbeatable.

Pride does make people stupid and arrogant. Why shouldn’t it make angels stupid and arrogant? I have noticed that some people with the highest intelligence are sometimes the most arrogant people I know.

It doesn’t matter what Satan’s motive was. All we need to know is that he is the Master of Hell and, like any wicked tyrant, wants desperately to increase his empire.

No doubt like are drawn to like … genius can be satanic … look at our arsenal of nuclear weapons … first proposed by Einstein himself. If anyone thinks Satan should have known it was wrong to revolt against the almighty, why shouldn’t Einstein have known it was wrong to build nuclear weapons?

High intelligence can be self destructive if it is not also humble. Satan’s fall was so great because his intellect was so proud.

In my lifetime I have known several bright college professors who were hated by their students because of their supreme arrogance.

 

[tonyrey]

Sorry Tonyrey, I don’t do other folk’s homework.

I’m sorry, Detales, but I don’t attempt to work out other folk’s interpretation of history…

 

[Zatzat]

I think that this thread is not about the actual question of Lucifer and Hell, because you don’t believe in either. If every answer you get your just going to argue with then this thread was really about trying to prove Catholicism is false-which you can’t because its true.

You can’t prove Catholicism is true because it’s false.

See what I did there? I turned the tables and now you’ll be able to see that what you said isn’t a very strong defense.

 

[TomD123]

You can’t prove Catholicism is true because it’s false.

See what I did there? I turned the tables and now you’ll be able to see that what you said isn’t a very strong defense.

I believe it is true, you don’t. That’s not my point. My point was that you are not really interested in an answer to the question about Lucifer because you will reject every answer you get, it seems like you just started this thread so that you could try to disprove Catholicism.

 

[Detales]

Toneyrey, Ah, so you have your own infallible version of it eh? Good for you!

Expert: “One who makes no mistakes as they sweep onwards to the grand fallacy.”

 

[Zatzat]

I believe it is true, you don’t. That’s not my point. My point was that you are not really interested in an answer to the question about Lucifer because you will reject every answer you get, it seems like you just started this thread so that you could try to disprove Catholicism.

Give me a reason that stands up to scrutiny and common sense…give me a reason to change my mind.

I’ve read quite a few threads where the only answers I’ve received require a person to believe that these supernatural beings possessed less knowledge than humans and / or were intellectually deficient to the point of the absurd.

Yet these very angels are entrusted as Gods messengers or other jobs such as guardians over individuals?

Thus far, the best response I’ve come across suggests that it is quite possible that the entire affair never took place as has been depicted in popular Christian culture.

 

[TomD123]

Give me a reason that stands up to scrutiny and common sense…give me a reason to change my mind.

I’ve read quite a few threads where the only answers I’ve received require a person to believe that these supernatural beings possessed less knowledge than humans and / or were intellectually deficient to the point of the absurd.

Yet these very angels are entrusted as Gods messengers or other jobs such as guardians over individuals?

Thus far, the best response I’ve come across suggests that it is quite possible that the entire affair never took place as has been depicted in popular Christian culture.

First of all, if you have made up your mind not to believe in the fall, then why ask about it? That was my original point because it seems like no matter what answer you get, you will say why you think it is wrong.

Secondly, here is an answer to the fall. Lucifer did not try to overthrow God. He knew he could not do this. God’s mission is to bring all humanity to him. Lucifer, in his pride, was jealous of the fact that God was God. Because Lucifer could not overthrow him, Lucifer decided to go against God’s goal. Lucifer does this by bringing humans away from God. That is what spiritual warfare is- the battle over our souls.
As for the second part of the question, God did not create hell for Lucifer. Hell is separation from God. God allows this separation if people (or angels) chose to be separated. That is why hell is a torture. Lucifer and his followers were simply the first to chose separation from God because angels came before humans.

 

[Detales]

Interesting point, TomD123. That means that if we have to *earn *our salvation, we are separate from God and therefore in hell. Well. That explains the news, doesn’t it. And religion. What more separatist activity is there than religions?

 

[Zatzat]

First of all, if you have made up your mind not to believe in the fall, then why ask about it?

Many Catholics believe the traditional story of Lucifer’s fall…the big battle with God and where Lucifer was defeated by another angel…

I don’t think the story makes a whole lot of sense, for the points that I’ve already outlined in this thread.

I’m curious to know if Catholics have ever thought about the problems with the story, do they suspend their own curiosities in order to believe in the story or are they simply content to not think about it?

On another note, perhaps there is some golden reason why the story makes perfect sense and I’ve never heard it before.

You can see first hand, right on this thread, that many different Catholics, have entirely different justifications in making sense of Lucifers decisions.

I’m a little puzzled why you seem to be focusing on me, instead of on the question. This thread has clearly shown that the question is of interest to forum members and there is obviously no easy answer, as so many different answers have been proposed.

That was my original point because it seems like no matter what answer you get, you will say why you think it is wrong.

If I receive an inadequate answer and choose to challenge the answer, please explain how that is wrong?

Secondly, here is an answer to the fall. Lucifer did not try to overthrow God. He knew he could not do this. God’s mission is to bring all humanity to him. Lucifer, in his pride, was jealous of the fact that God was God. Because Lucifer could not overthrow him, Lucifer decided to go against God’s goal. Lucifer does this by bringing humans away from God.

I’d always thought that Lucifer had tried to overthrow God. Many Christians won’t agree with you. On another note, your last point falls short of complying with Christian beliefs, as Lucifer had been cast into hell before God created man, so his goal couldn’t have been to bring humans away from God, as they didn’t yet exist…ie: Adam and Eve…Satan is disguised as a snake…the fall was well before that.

bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/30896/eVerseID/30896

.But this mighty angel grew proud and vain in his beauty. He began to become envious of God’s authority over the universe, and over maybe millions of years, he schemed to induce other angels to support him in an attempt to overthrow God. When he finally led one third of the angels (Revelation 12:4) to war against God in heaven, God cast him and his angelic troops back to the earth (Luke 10:18).’

God did not create hell for Lucifer. Hell is separation from God.

Then who did God create Hell for?

That is why hell is a torture. Lucifer and his followers were simply the first to chose separation from God because angels came before humans.

If someone doesn’t want to be with God and they’re sent to hell, where God is absent, then how could they be said to be in a state of torture…they’re getting what they want and wouldn’t they therefor be happy?

 

[TomD123]

I’d always thought that Lucifer had tried to overthrow God. Many Christians won’t agree with you. On another note, your last point falls short of complying with Christian beliefs, as Lucifer had been cast into hell before God created man, so his goal couldn’t have been to bring humans away from God, as they didn’t yet exist…ie: Adam and Eve…Satan is disguised as a snake…the fall was well before that.
Overthrowing God can be thought of as symbolic. It symbolizes Lucifer WISHING he could overthrow God or he could be God. Lucifer’s goal was to bring humans away from God. Just because they didn’t exist yet doesn’t mean that Lucifer did not know they would exist. Lucifer was looking ahead into the future and he saw God’s plan and he decided to try to mess it up. (Remember also that the concept of time is unclear for Angels and demons. One could make an argument that the “battle” is a continuous action because in the spiritual world creatures experience time in a different way, as if it were one moment)

.But this mighty angel grew proud and vain in his beauty. He began to become envious of God’s authority over the universe, and over maybe millions of years, he schemed to induce other angels to support him in an attempt to overthrow God. When he finally led one third of the angels (Revelation 12:4)This is one possible interpretation of that verse in Revelation, but not the only way to look at it to war against God in heaven, God cast him and his angelic troops back to the earth (Luke 10:18).’

Then who did God create Hell for?
What I am trying to say is that God didn’t just say “Okay, Lucifer, I’ve one the battle now- here is the torture chamber I have made for you” It is more like this “Lucifer, if you want to leave, then you can leave” and then hell was made for all those who wished to stay away from God

If someone doesn’t want to be with God and they’re sent to hell, where God is absent, then how could they be said to be in a state of torture…they’re getting what they want and wouldn’t they therefor be happy?

The people in Hell are not happy because they are full of hatred for God. Since God created us so that we could experience the beatific vision, if we lose this, we lose our entire meaning for existence. People in Hell have no love in them, so they are very unhappy.
Look at this real life scenario:
If a child hated his parents, grew older, and never spoke to them again, he would be full of anger. He may be separate from them, which is what he wanted, but if his parents are loving parents who care about him, he would probably be very unhappy because the natural way to live is in harmony with your family. It is like this with separation from God

 

[momor]

It should come as no surprise that I don’t believe in the fall of Lucifer. However, Catholics do believe in Lucifer and his angels that fell with him, so I ask you;

How does it make any sense that Lucifer and his angels, would have tried to wage a war against God?

1. Lucifer was well aware that he was waging a war against an omnipotent and omniscient God.

Not only would Lucifer know that God was indestructible, unbeatable, but that God would know exactly how, when and where Lucifer would attack.

Knowing what Lucifer knew, why would Lucifer have bothered to wage a war?

I’ve got a strong feeling that I may hear about Lucifers ’ pride ', but that’s just not going to cut it.

Sure, let’s say Lucifer had all the pride in existence!! All that pride wouldn’t have made Lucifer stupid, ignorant or forgetful that God was all powerful and all knowing and that God was 100% unbeatable.

1. God created Lucifer, even thought he knew that Lucifer would rebel and that he’d have to create Hell to contain him. Even though God knew these things, he created Lucifer anyway.

The story just doesn’t make sense? How do Christians reconcile this?

I don’t think you can understand God and angels by using human logic and literal, concrete thinking. They are beyond our comprehension. We can only see through a glass darkly and Bible stories give us ideas and concepts but not the whole picture. Prayer and contemplation tend to confer greater understanding.