A Discussion On the Meaning of Suffering

[djeter]

http://payingattentiontothesky.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/suffering.jpg?w=450&h=300

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The post existed prior by way of a series of links(some now broken) on the site of Touchstone Magazine. It is based on an article David Hart wrote (Tremors of Doubt) which came to be a longer article in the Wall Street Journal and finally a book, *The Doors of the Sea: Where was God in the Tsunami? *

Oddly enough, the article precipitated the falling out I had with Jerome that became the subject of my Failing Fellowship post a while back so I followed the back and forth between the distinguished participants in this exchange closely. Although I was unfamiliar with William Luse, Anthony Esolen is someone I deeply admire. Surprise surprise that they too had some problems following Dr. Hart’s theological points.

I’ve really only bolded the portions of David Hart’s arguments because I consider it important and one that many Christians don’t fully comprehend. The fact that two intellectuals such as Luse and Esolen have some trouble following it is instructional to say the least. Along the way they say some very interesting things but the day is clearly owned by Dr. Hart, IMHO.

The discussion (flushed out from the links) is here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2010/06/15/a-discussion-on-the-meaning-of-suffering/

Would love to get your takes on it.

dj

 

[ERose]

This is the way I see the suffering issue:

Natural Catastrophes are in themselves not evil. They are a natural occurance. When all of these people died in the tsumuni, that became the end of their life on earth yes. But why is that viewed as evil? Everybody dies. Some of these people that died that day may have lived for another 1-50 years or would have died that day regardless. But physical death is not evil to us Christians. It is the beginning of our eternity. It is our judgement day and at that point we will discover how we are going to live it.

Now those who live through the disaster will most probably endure suffering. Some greater than others. But is suffering in itself evil? Christians should not believe so. This should be the fundamental difference between Christians and the rest of the world. Those of the world do believe that suffering is evil, but Christians should view it as a trial. As an occurance in our life that gives us an opportunity to grow as a human being. Human beings by nature require suffering to grow. If you want to grow stronger you lift weights, get smarter then study, etc. The same applies to the suffering that enters our life that is not controlled by us. These are moments that if we can endure can be a great resource for our growth. God like a good Father sends us trials and tribulations that He know we can handle, we might not think so but He knows so, to facilitate growth. Whether it calls us to repentance, humility, charity, etc.

Now, the world wants to believe that a good and just God would not allow suffering to occur. But Christians should believe that a good and just God must allow suffering to occur so that we can progress in our path to Him.

The world also does not understand that it does not see the world as God sees it. They want to believe that if there is a God up there then He is a superhuman being. Well He isn’t for He is not human nor is He created or part of creation. He knows all of creation throughout all of time. He does not learn because He already knows. We see a tiny piece where He sees it all. If we as human beings live on average of 85 years in the world, what is 85 years compared to eternity in the next? Just a drop in the bucket.

 

[edwest2]

I was listening to a priest on Catholic Radio. He talked about a man who told him he was going through a very difficult period in his life. The priest’s advice? Don’t waste it. To use his trial to get closer to God. Sometimes, we are not feeling as strong as we’d like or as we’re used to. It is during that time of weakness, and even feelings of helplessness, that we should turn to God. Jesus invites us to give our burdens to Him.

God bless,
Ed

 

[GratefulFred]

Forgive me in that I have not yet read the underlaying article. I do agree with the first two responses. I would add more from my personal understanding…

We are imperfect human beings living in an imperfect world. We are also the object of attention from God and the Devil. Therefore I believe that Suffering Happens.

I cannot tell if ALL suffering is sent to us from God, we being imperfect and the Devil being at work. I cannot tell if suffering is a punishment from God. I tend to think suffering, regardless of its source, is a challenge to help us grow in character and Faith.

What I do understand is that God is with us through it all. Sometimes it is very difficult to realize that God is indeed with us through it all. If we have known life without suffering, we may be angry when it comes and tend to want to blame someone. We often blame the one we thought would take care of us - God. Silently we expect Heaven on Earth for us if not for others. If suffering is all we have known in life, we may feel that there is no God or that He is cruel. If we have not developed a good relationship with God, we may develop even more anger toward Him when suffering comes our way.

Christians are called to be Christ like. Christ was and is PERFECT. Yet he too suffered in reparation for sin. Not His sin, but our sins. If we are to be Christ like, I must expect suffering in my life, sooner or later to one degree or another. The question then, to stay on course of being Christ like, is whether or not I will offer it up in reparation for my sins and the sins of others?

I believe that those who suffer more and keep the Faith receive greater reward in Heaven. We have the Saints to prove that. I can only hope and pray that I too will keep the Faith, both in the good times (who needs God, I’m doing fine) and in the bad times (If you love me God, you would not have let this happen to me).

Suffering is all about how we deal with it. With LOVE or Anger.

 

[seeker57]

I find this discussion of particular interest. I have always been puzzled by the church’s take on suffering.

I was once at a Catholic funeral where the priest went on ad nauseam regarding how the young man who lay dead before him had suffered, and how his sufferings were his atonement for the sinful life he had led.

At the time, I was rather upset, because I know how the man died and know he suffered a great deal the last year of his life.

I was not alone. Others also were very angry at this priest.

I think it would have been fine had the priest said something along the line of, “This man’s suffering will gain him greater reward in heaven,” or some such.

But what was irking was the intimation that the man deserved to suffer as he had because of his sinful life, especially since the priest didn’t know the man.

This type of assertion would have been something I would have expected to read in a Puritan history book, not from a living priest and modern Catholicism.

In light of the above discussion, am I missing an idiosyncrasy about Catholicism I missed in the past?

 

[Black_Rose]

Now those who live through the disaster will most probably endure suffering. Some greater than others. But is suffering in itself evil? Christians should not believe so. This should be the fundamental difference between Christians and the rest of the world. Those of the world do believe that suffering is evil, but Christians should view it as a trial. As an occurance in our life that gives us an opportunity to grow as a human being. Human beings by nature require suffering to grow. If you want to grow stronger you lift weights, get smarter then study, etc. The same applies to the suffering that enters our life that is not controlled by us. These are moments that if we can endure can be a great resource for our growth. God like a good Father sends us trials and tribulations that He know we can handle, we might not think so but He knows so, to facilitate growth. Whether it calls us to repentance, humility, charity, etc.

Certainly, it might be an acceptable proposition that a little bit of suffering and trials would help one grow and mature. But, of course, some people plateau (in both studying and athletic training) when there is little reward for the extra effort put in (the effort goes to the maintenance of one’s abilities, instead of their growth.) In other words, do you think gratuitous suffering may have a diminishing return on their spiritual benefits? Would such suffering turn people away from God by buttressing the problem of evil argument. But, do you think a world with impoverished billions is necessary for spiritual growth?

 

[edwest2]

Any reference to “impoverished billions” is a false argument. Look at the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank for answers there. Bill and Melinda Gates are doing what they can and Catholics all over the world are doing what they can.

It would be nice if there were no poor, but universal employment is not happening. It would be good to look at Wall Street, Enron, Global Crossing, the Savings and Loan scandal, and others to see a strange philosophy at work: “There is no such thing as having too much money.” Human greed is a serious problem.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Black_Rose]

Any reference to “impoverished billions” is a false argument. Look at the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank for answers there. Bill and Melinda Gates are doing what they can and Catholics all over the world are doing what they can.

It would be nice if there were no poor, but universal employment is not happening. It would be good to look at Wall Street, Enron, Global Crossing, the Savings and Loan scandal, and others to see a strange philosophy at work: “There is no such thing as having too much money.” Human greed is a serious problem.

God bless,
Ed

But how is human effort comparable to divine intervention? But my point is that their suffering exists and I was questioning whether their suffering is necessary for the spiritual growth of the world.

And how could one judge the World Bank and the IMM as “good” entities since they have been promoting neoliberal globalization?

 

[edwest2]

I did not call the World Bank and IMF good. I am pointing out that some people do not know what they do. Some poor countries are saddled with debt they cannot pay. That is why there are calls to excuse their debt in some cases.

Human suffering will continue because of sin. We are all called to do what we can. Even Jesus tells us that it is impossible for offences to cease. So we pray and ask God to guide us in helping those who are suffering. Even a little bit of helping is better than none at all. At one time, a man lived in harmony with God, but he chose to disobey.

God bless,
Ed

 

[wheels10]

Forgive me in that I have not yet read the underlaying article. I do agree with the first two responses. I would add more from my personal understanding…

We are imperfect human beings living in an imperfect world. We are also the object of attention from God and the Devil. Therefore I believe that Suffering Happens.

I cannot tell if ALL suffering is sent to us from God, we being imperfect and the Devil being at work. I cannot tell if suffering is a punishment from God. I tend to think suffering, regardless of its source, is a challenge to help us grow in character and Faith.

What I do understand is that God is with us through it all. Sometimes it is very difficult to realize that God is indeed with us through it all. If we have known life without suffering, we may be angry when it comes and tend to want to blame someone. We often blame the one we thought would take care of us - God. Silently we expect Heaven on Earth for us if not for others. If suffering is all we have known in life, we may feel that there is no God or that He is cruel. If we have not developed a good relationship with God, we may develop even more anger toward Him when suffering comes our way.

Christians are called to be Christ like. Christ was and is PERFECT. Yet he too suffered in reparation for sin. Not His sin, but our sins. If we are to be Christ like, I must expect suffering in my life, sooner or later to one degree or another. The question then, to stay on course of being Christ like, is whether or not I will offer it up in reparation for my sins and the sins of others?

I believe that those who suffer more and keep the Faith receive greater reward in Heaven. We have the Saints to prove that. I can only hope and pray that I too will keep the Faith, both in the good times (who needs God, I’m doing fine) and in the bad times (If you love me God, you would not have let this happen to me).

**Suffering is all about how we deal with it. With LOVE or Anger./**QUOTE]

I agree. Suffering is a True test of Love. True Love is constant and will endure all, both good times and bad times.

 

[wheels10]

Certainly, it might be an acceptable proposition that a little bit of suffering and trials would help one grow and mature. But, of course, some people plateau (in both studying and athletic training) when there is little reward for the extra effort put in (the effort goes to the maintenance of one’s abilities, instead of their growth.) In other words, do you think gratuitous suffering may have a diminishing return on their spiritual benefits? Would such suffering turn people away from God by buttressing the problem of evil argument. But, do you think a world with impoverished billions is necessary for spiritual growth?

Here’s my understand of why suffering exists in this world:

1. God gave us free will. When we choose to do evil over good, suffering will result.
2. For a follower of Jesus, suffering can have the ability to humble a soul. A soul needs to be humble in order to receive the Graces from Jesus.
3. The work of God can be displayed by those that offer aid to the suffering. Here’s a verse from the Bible:

John 9:1 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man?s eyes. “Go,” he told him, “wash in the Pool of Siloam” (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

So what was the work of God that was displayed in the blind man’s Life? Jesus Loved him and helped him. While we may not be able to make the blind see, we can Love and help people with hardships in our own way. When we Love and help people with hardships the work of God can be displayed through us.

1. Suffering can have the ability to take away the wants of the things of this world, and have us focus on something much more beautiful and everlasting, ie. God.
2. The greater the suffering, the greater one can Love. Love of God, neighbour, and enemies especially during times of suffering is True Love. It was during the great suffering of Jesus on the cross that His True, Pure, Perfect Love was revealed to the world.

 

[ERose]

Certainly, it might be an acceptable proposition that a little bit of suffering and trials would help one grow and mature. But, of course, some people plateau (in both studying and athletic training) when there is little reward for the extra effort put in (the effort goes to the maintenance of one’s abilities, instead of their growth.) In other words, do you think gratuitous suffering may have a diminishing return on their spiritual benefits? Would such suffering turn people away from God by buttressing the problem of evil argument. But, do you think a world with impoverished billions is necessary for spiritual growth?

Suffering ceases to be gratuitous when you have received perfection. Can suffering turn one from God? The answer is yes. But that person did not understand nor desire to follow that path. If you read the writings of the mystics, you will discover that many endured great hardship and they embraced it. They would call it “Sharing in the sufferings of Christ”. St Paul writes about it as well. Padre Pio the great miracle worker of the last century indured great hardship and pain during his life. He embraced it and used it to become closer to God.

 

[ERose]

I find this discussion of particular interest. I have always been puzzled by the church’s take on suffering.

I was once at a Catholic funeral where the priest went on ad nauseam regarding how the young man who lay dead before him had suffered, and how his sufferings were his atonement for the sinful life he had led.

At the time, I was rather upset, because I know how the man died and know he suffered a great deal the last year of his life.

I was not alone. Others also were very angry at this priest.

I think it would have been fine had the priest said something along the line of, “This man’s suffering will gain him greater reward in heaven,” or some such.

But what was irking was the intimation that the man deserved to suffer as he had because of his sinful life, especially since the priest didn’t know the man.

This type of assertion would have been something I would have expected to read in a Puritan history book, not from a living priest and modern Catholicism.

In light of the above discussion, am I missing an idiosyncrasy about Catholicism I missed in the past?

To be honest we all have sinned and fell short of heaven. No one on this earth deserves or merits heaven. That is the reason why Christ became man, so he can be our merit and our gateway into heaven.

The Catholic teaching on sin is that when we commit a sin there is going to be some form of punishment to be endured for that sin. Now if we ask God for forgiveness of that sin we will be forgiven of it but we will still be required to endure some form of temporal punishment due to that sin. This punishment can be replaced by acts of charity, prayer, etc which are called indulgences.

The teaching of the fall of man dictates that with Adam’s sin suffering entered into the human condition because with sin there is punishment, whether in this life or the next. Personally I would prefer suffering in this world than the next.

Concerning your friend and the suffering he endured before his death I would take this consolation. His purgatory was before his death and as such his suffering either reduced his time in purgatory or eliminated it all together and he was able to walk into those gates the moment he took his last breath.

 

[Darryl1958]

Without suffering, compassion would not be possible, and a world without compassion is a world without love.