A discussion with a friend... I am very confussed

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Debora123

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So I just got done having a discussion with one of my best friends via facebook chat.

Here’s the convo: (she’s red, I’m blue)

…btw a really good response to his post could have been a Nietzsche quote:
“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”

Haha… nice quote, though i can’t saw i agree with it, i think there are certain things that are the right things and the wrong things

well then we agree to disagree

so you think there is no right way or wrong way to do things??
lol no you don’t

what?

take that to the extreme… you have 2 ways of making money… one is working hard, the other is robbing a bank
obviously there is a right way and a wrong way 🙂

but see that’s the thing, were not basing it off ourselves.

what do you mean?

what is right, is only right to the person that feels it. What is wrong is only wrong if the person feels it.
right and wrong is only based on the individual
that’s why we have so many people that disagree on things

ehhh… what about the nazis who felt they were doing the right thing? was it the right thing bc they “felt it was right?”

No see, your looking at it wrong
Yes I think Nazis are wrong

i dunno, i mean, i think there is a standard of right and wrong to a certain degree…
i don’t think it depends entirely on the specific person, because then we have serial killers who go on TV and say they don’t feel what they did was wrong

Yes! and do you know why we have a “standard” vision of what is right and wrong?
because a vast majority of individuals have the same perception of right and wrong.

well, i’m a christian, so i believe those standards come from god’s laws
lol

Well if you went overseas you would be wrong
Jesus is not their god
so there you would be considered “wrong” by there standards
but do you feel you are wrong?

i know he is not their god, but i believe he is the truth… i mean, in the end of the day, there IS a god and SOMEONE has it right…

are you purposely misconstruing the whole point?

no?
i guess i just haven’t grasped what you’re trying to say yet

You just proved that that quote is right

sorry 😦
well i don’t see how i did that
that quote says there is no right and wrong

EXACTLY

…that there is no “truth”
but i think there IS

Um it did not say there was no TRUTH
Your killing me debi
OK you know how you believe christianity is the one and only religion
to you that is “right”
in every way possible that is the only right, right?
well I mean, true religion, right religion. lol obviously not the only one

yes 🙂

OK, now, you know how if you went somewhere and EVERYONE thought you were wrong?
Because there they believe in Jahandahanah or whatever god
but you feel no less wrong, Right?

yes
so then one of us is right, and the other is wrong… we can’t both be right, obviously

omg
just forget it

?
i want to understand, i really do

lol, your going in circles around he whole point
even in me convincing you of the truth of the quote, in itself, PROVES the quote!
ahhh

lol you’re like, making me feel really stupid

I’m sorry
I think we just think differently
there was a reason this man was one of the great philosophers

i’m not trying to discredit him, just trying to understand

I think I just get more “abstract ideas” because I’m naturally more creative
It’s just a whole different thought process

lol just tell me what he meant

I DID

ok, let’s look at it this way and you can tell me where i went wrong:
let’s say we are 1000 years back, and you think the world is round, and i think it is flat. to you, you are right… because that is what you think is right. but to me, you are wrong and i am right, because i think the world is flat…
obviously we can’t both be right… correct?

fair trade

the world can’t be flat and round at the same time… one of us has to be right, and the other wrong… correct?

no
no, right and wrong is not based on facts
there are people out there called “the flat earthers” because they still believe the earth is flat
but that’s beside the point
the point isn’t the end result
even if the answer is proven!
it’s all perception
thats why right and wrong can vary depending on the society (group)
because each society is made up of many Individuals
Individuals each with there own view

After this, my computer kinda took a poop so I had to restart it and we didn’t go back to the subject. But is anyone else utterly confused?

Can anyone help me understand what she was trying to say??
 
I think u were getting the right idea about it and SHE/HE was getting confused. They were basically saying there there is no such thing as a definitive universal truth because each person decides what their own individual truth is. But if there are no universal truths, then why do people of different cultures believe that murdering is wrong or that stealing is wrong. Seems to me there there ARE universal truths of basic right and wrong. At least that’s what I got from the conversation. I’m at work so I kind of had to breeze through it a littler quicker than usual.
 
Moral relativism… The whole, “you have your truth and I have mine”… Problem with that mindset is the fact that the truth is the truth,it doesn’t change.There is a great quote by Fulton Sheen…“The difference between the truth and a lie is, the truth is still the truth,even if no one believes it…a lie is still a lie even if everyone believes it”👍
 
Jeanne_S said:
Moral relativism… The whole, “you have your truth and I have mine”… Problem with that mindset is the fact that the truth is the truth,it doesn’t change.There is a great quote by Fulton Sheen…“The difference between the truth and a lie is, the truth is still the truth,even if no one believes it…a lie is still a lie even if everyone believes it”👍
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But even in the case where we were talking about the earth being round/flat, she still insisted that it depended on the person somehow… or something??

And she kept saying that I didn’t know what she meant…

So I feel like I may be missing something here. Am I missing something??
 
Debora123 said:
But even in the case where we were talking about the earth being round/flat, she still insisted that it depended on the person somehow… or something??
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I think she was talking about whether some one’s stance was received as being right or wrong and not the actuality of whether or not one’s beliefs are descriptive of reality.
 
No,I don’t think you are missing anything.Your friend couldn’t support her argument with logic,so I suspect she was hanging on and persisting to save face…
 
Jeanne_S said:
No,I don’t think you are missing anything.Your friend couldn’t support her argument with logic,so I suspect she was hanging on and persisting to save face…
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yeah, your friend was acting like you were the dumb one who didn’t “get it” but what she was saying made ZERO sense.
 
I saw a major contradiction in the beginning when she simply brushed aside the Nazis (which was a great example on your part) and stated that they were wrong for no apparent reason. It seems to me that the point trying to be made is that yes, people like the flat earthers preach something false, but they are not wrong for it. But yes, it does seem like complete gibberish:D

Personally, I’ve never liked Nietzsche’s philosophy. It seems to be all about a hatred for man as it is and the awaiting of the Superman. I also just can’t take the pride that the man has which can be seen in the titles of his works like “Why I am so wise” and “Why I am destiny”

Just looking at the quote, you can make it seem right by saying that he meant everyone should do good and live in their own way, but Nietzsche was most likely saying it in regards to moral relativism and the Superman overcoming morals because morals are created by the aristocrats to control the weak so no one is really wrong in whatever way they do anything.
 
Your friend is attempting to say that ‘right’ is not a state, but a thought. That a person is right, because they believe they are right, not because they are ‘correct.’ It’s an invalid premise. They are misunderstanding Nietzsche in the first place. Nietzsche was saying that right and wrong are relative to a person, and not to any universal truth. (Moral relativism). As Christians we don’t believe in that and you did a good job of showing them why.

Nietzsche believed that morals were based on who we were and what we believed. That you could believe that murder was ok, and I could believe it was not, and we were both right, no one was wrong. We however believe that when 2+2=4 someone who thinks 2+2=5 is wrong, and only when someone thinks 2+2=4 are they right.
 
I’m really not the best at putting things mildly. So I’ll just do what I do best and be blunt. Your friend was getting frustrated because you were being rational and she was not. I notice she refers to herself as creative. As a relatively creative person myself, I can assure I make this accusation against myself as much as I do her: We are, by nature, irrational people. It takes a lot of effort to step out of that relativistic mindset. If you have a minute, read this:

Why Are Most Artists Liberal?
 
I think I just get more “abstract ideas” because I’m naturally more creative It’s just a whole different thought process
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And incredibly humble, too, I see.

Here’s something your friend should ponder, it’s something they repeat over and over to you in graduate school:

If you can’t explain your thesis to a 12-year-old, you don’t understand it, yourself.

Your friend does not believe in objective morality. I have no idea why that was so difficult to simply say.

BUT - your friend wants this subjective opinion: that there is no objective morality, to be accepted by you as OBJECTIVE fact, that can be proven.

And also wants you to feel badly about yourself for not agreeing and lord it over you because she/he is so much more creative and clever than you are. Odd how they can’t even express themselves well enough to state a simple point about their own beliefs.

🤷
 
Debora123 said:
But even in the case where we were talking about the earth being round/flat, she still insisted that it depended on the person somehow… or something??

And she kept saying that I didn’t know what she meant…

So I feel like I may be missing something here. Am I missing something??
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on that, she said: “no, right and wrong is not based on facts.” shes talking about subjective views, like moral views, which you cant prove. people have different views all over the world, and theres no way for them to prove theyre right unless in matters of fact–which shes not talking about. this is why you would feel right even if you were some place where everyone said you were wrong.
 
Do yourself a favor and don’t talk with people who quote Nietzsche.
 
Julia_Mae said:
BUT - your friend wants this subjective opinion: that there is no objective morality, to be accepted by you as OBJECTIVE fact, that can be proven.
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she came off badly. but she is talking about objective morality, not objectivity in general.
 
Here, I’ll throw this into the soup. You were both right.

I know that the earth is indeed round, but if I could wrap a measuring device around it, take it off, and lay it down I could still claim that at some point the circumference of the earth is flat, because numbers are linear.

The discussion merely proves that only God can judge what is good or evil, for He knows all. All we can do is follow our conscience that has been formed via family, society, and experience. That is why it is, in actuality, difficult to commit a grave sin.

This doesn’t mean that anything is right just because that is our personal opinion. Relativism is wrong because it imprisons one to oneself, limiting the possibility of growth and expansion of an individual or an individual’s immediate community. It produces a false sense of comfort that is selfish, as in ProChoice.
 
A play on A.B. Sheens words should help.

Right is right even if everyone thinks its wrong, and wrong is wrong even if everyone thinks it is right.

Thus there really is a right and a wrong when it comes to real truth. It doesn’t matter what one believes is right …right is right/ and wrong is wrong. The world is a sphere/round - not flat, perceptions, strong beliefs and notions do not change the truth which is that the earth is a sphere/round.

You had her in the discussion but she never used acceptable logic and diverted the conversation by saying it was you who was wrong on the philosophy. A great philosopher does not give a definitive answer of what is Real/Truth but rather speculations. After all that is what philosophy is - speculation and thought provoking questions …philosophy is not TRUTH.

I have spoken :tiphat:
 
Philosophy = the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct.
It is speculation and investigation but cannot ultimately (even the greatest of philosophers) say that those speculations and rationalizations are TRUTH.

A Muslim says Allah is the one true God.
Catholics say The Trilogy: Father, Son and Holy Spirit is the one true God.
The real TRUTH does not change because a person is Muslim or Catholic.
It matters not, The truth, is the truth, is the truth, which is real and unchanging.

The TRUTH is unchanging and perceptions, beliefs or relativity cannot ever change the real TRUTH. This is what your friend was trying to convince you of …that the relative situation was what makes the truth become truth. But this is a not logical because the real TRUTH is always the REAL TRUTH.
Thus,only one of the above religions is the real truth, not both. She was trying to say that they are both truths and that is illogical.

I have spoken again (and that is the truth :D). :thankyou:
 
Bartolome_Casas said:
Do yourself a favor and don’t talk with people who quote Nietzsche.
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She’s one of my best friends, was my maid of honor at my wedding, and has been the person who’s been there for me whenever I’ve needed anything. I’m not going to ditch her just because she has different beliefs. 🤷
 
You held your own pretty well, and were very charitable in the process. Many discussions like this break down fast, become ad hominems and destroy friendships.

Not sure if your friend is an atheist, but I will say that there will obviously always be a failure to see the reality of absolute truth until a Supreme Being is first acknowledged.

But your friend surprisingly doesn’t seem to even hold to objective truth, either. Some equate absolute truth with objective truth, but I like to reserve the term “absolute” for the transcendental truth of life, morals and eternal destiny (i.e the Christian God). Objective truth refers to those realities which are shown to be true independent of one’s interior biases or mental tendencies. It’s true because it is reasonably shown to be true through unbiased observation of the evidence.

Your friend seems to deny this type of truth when she says:

there are people out there called “the flat earthers” because they still believe the earth is flat
but that’s beside the point
the point isn’t the end result
even if the answer is proven!
it’s all perception

I’m not sure if she really is denying that there is anything but subjective truth, but it seems that either she is, or is confused as to what she believes.

Either way, she certainly denies moral absolutes in favor of relativism, and this is a highly intellectual debate. I applaud you for engaging in it. Dr. Peter Kreeft is one of the premier philosophers of our age, and is devoutly Catholic to boot. If you haven’t read, or heard, him, you can check him out here. On his audio page, you can find a talk with the title “A Refutation of Moral Relativism” which is very good, albeit the audio on it is one of the lesser quality recordings. If you have a problem finding it, here’s a direct link.
 
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