A discussion with a protestant friend - Judgement Day

[melissa09]

Today I was trying to explain a number of things to a protestant friend of mine, like that we honor Mary - not worship her, the communion of saints, purgatory, etc. and during our discussion of purgutory she asked where the dead go until Judgement Day. she asked if I believed they were in purgatory or if they were just dead or if they were already in heaven. And I didn’t really know how to explain it to her…

partly because I was confused myself.

I also need some help explaining why it is important to pray for the dead - the souls in purgatory - i tried to explain it like if a friend was sick, but they were eventually going to get better you still pray for their healing, just like if a soul was in purgatory you know they are eventually going to heaven but you still pray for them (which im not sure if that was right)-- but then she said that was like helping them get to heaven and insisted that we are purified before we die??

need your help!!

 

[COPLAND_3]

Good timing, I just put this together litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/Heaven%2C+Hell%2C+and+the+Afterlife

 

[adowcday]

Today I was trying to explain a number of things to a protestant friend of mine, like that we honor Mary - not worship her, the communion of saints, purgatory, etc. and during our discussion of purgutory she asked where the dead go until Judgement Day. she asked if I believed they were in purgatory or if they were just dead or if they were already in heaven. And I didn’t really know how to explain it to her…

partly because I was confused myself.

I also need some help explaining why it is important to pray for the dead - the souls in purgatory - i tried to explain it like if a friend was sick, but they were eventually going to get better you still pray for their healing, just like if a soul was in purgatory you know they are eventually going to heaven but you still pray for them (which im not sure if that was right)-- but then she said that was like helping them get to heaven and insisted that we are purified before we die??

need your help!!

The fact is that the bible really doesn’t say what happens to us in the period of time after we die and before the Judgment (general or specific). The Church says that those who die with sin in their lives are not capable of being in God’s holy presence in heaven, which is the reason for Purgatory. Your friend has no biblical basis for the statement that we are purified before we die – so un-Protestant of her to believe something so un-scriptural and to use that belief as a basis to criticize Catholic teaching! Purgatory is not contrary to any teaching of the scriptures, so she has no reason to argue that Catholics are wrong to believe in Purgatory, only that such a belief should be optional for a bible-believing Christian.

 

[garysibio]

Today I was trying to explain a number of things to a protestant friend of mine, like that we honor Mary - not worship her, the communion of saints, purgatory, etc. and during our discussion of purgutory she asked where the dead go until Judgement Day. she asked if I believed they were in purgatory or if they were just dead or if they were already in heaven. And I didn’t really know how to explain it to her…

partly because I was confused myself.

I also need some help explaining why it is important to pray for the dead - the souls in purgatory - i tried to explain it like if a friend was sick, but they were eventually going to get better you still pray for their healing, just like if a soul was in purgatory you know they are eventually going to heaven but you still pray for them (which im not sure if that was right)-- but then she said that was like helping them get to heaven and insisted that we are purified before we die??

need your help!!

Protestants believe we are perfected in a legal sense. The theological term is forensic salvation. God declares that we are clean so we are legally clean even though we know that, in reality, we are far from perfect. This is Luther’s concept of the snow-covered dung heaps. Catholics also accept this but acknowledge that we are also truly being sanctified by the grace of God. If we are not completely purified on Earth, the process is finished in Purgatory.

Protestants often complain that Catholics don’t have a proper understanding of what Jesus did on the cross because of our belief in Purgatory but the opposite is true. We have a higher view than the Protestants because we believe what Jesus did there actually makes us purer rather than just a legal declaration which amounts to God deceiving Himself to our true condition.

If you can get a hold of it, Fr. Mitch Pacwa had a great debate with Protestant apologist Walter Martin on this very topic. It was essential in bringing me back to the Church after drifting off into Protestantism.

Regarding Purgatory, we have to keep in mind that it is outside of creation so time may not mean a lot there. The Church does not even call Purgatory a place. It is called a state. It is, however, convenient for us to think about it as a place and think of spending time there. It makes it easier to wrap our minds around it. With that in mind, some people may only be in Purgatory a short while while others may be there until the final judgement. It depends on the person.

Gary

 

[melissa09]

she kept talking about how Jesus’ death on the cross made us pure before we went to heaven…and it was so confusing because I had no idea where she was coming from and that we where saved through God’s grace and something about works didn’t matter…then she said she didn’t believe in one saved always saved because you if you believe you would do good things…which would actually mean the works did matter…again

can anyone help me defend the second one about praying for the dead?

 

[COPLAND_3]

she kept talking about how Jesus’ death on the cross made us pure before we went to heaven…and it was so confusing because I had no idea where she was coming from and that we where saved through God’s grace and something about works didn’t matter…then she said she didn’t believe in one saved always saved because you if you believe you would do good things…which would actually mean the works did matter…again

can anyone help me defend the second one about praying for the dead?

I know from past experience as a Southern Baptist that when explaining “once saved always saved” while fitting works in there, it became a matter engineering the words to say that works don’t matter while also saying they do, as if to say that “if someone is really saved then they will do good works.” That belief comes in many forms depending on what denomination or preacher you hear it from. It’s a mess to say the least.

As for defending praying for the dead let me first give you some resources to consult

newadvent.org/cathen/04653a.htm

I strongly recommend reading this newadvent.org/summa/5071.htm from St. Thomas Aquinas, especially where it says “on the contrary” and “I answer.” St. Thomas tackles this from every angle, and it is set up in the form of questions-objections and answers-reply to objections.

 

[adowcday]

I know from past experience as a Southern Baptist that when explaining “once saved always saved” while fitting works in there, it became a matter engineering the words to say that works don’t matter while also saying they do, as if to say that “if someone is really saved then they will do good works.” That belief comes in many forms depending on what denomination or preacher you hear it from. It’s a mess to say the least.

The Catholic Church has it right, and I like the clear way that it was expressed in the Catholic-Lutheran joint document on Justification. We are justified by grace through faith, not by works. However, as you mentioned, Catholics part ways with those who believe “once saved always saved.” Works are important, and not just an expression of gratitude or a confirming sign of saving grace (which always seemed intellectually dishonest: “Charlie doesn’t live a Christian life, even though he prayed the Sinner’s Prayer and shed tears at the altar. In his heart, he must not have been sincere… etc.”). We work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The Catholic view that works really matter, that our following of Christ is necessary for our salvation, is the only approach that makes sense of the Bible. It makes Christian faith a tougher sell. It’s much easier to tell people that if they simply pray the Sinner’s Prayer, their ticket to heaven is punched and they’re good to go. But it’s the truth.

 

[COPLAND_3]

The Catholic Church has it right, and I like the clear way that it was expressed in the Catholic-Lutheran joint document on Justification. We are justified by grace through faith, not by works. However, as you mentioned, Catholics part ways with those who believe “once saved always saved.” Works are important, and not just an expression of gratitude or a confirming sign of saving grace (which always seemed intellectually dishonest: “Charlie doesn’t live a Christian life, even though he prayed the Sinner’s Prayer and shed tears at the altar. In his heart, he must not have been sincere… etc.”). We work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The Catholic view that works really matter, that our following of Christ is necessary for our salvation, is the only approach that makes sense of the Bible. It makes Christian faith a tougher sell. It’s much easier to tell people that if they simply pray the Sinner’s Prayer, their ticket to heaven is punched and they’re good to go. But it’s the truth.

Very well said, that’s awesome!

 

[NHInsider]

can anyone help me defend the second one about praying for the dead?

One piece of this to keep in mind is that praying for the dead is part-and-parcel of the Communion of Saints. Once we accept Jesus’ gift we become part of His Body, and His Body cannot be divided (see quote, below). So we are able to pray with and for one another across not only space (obviously we all pray for people who are not in the same room with us) but also across time. So - we can ask those who are here with us to pray for us, and we can pray for them. We can ask those who’ve gone before us “marked with the sign of faith” (baptized) to pray for us, and we can pray for them. We can pray for those yet unborn, and for those who have died whose faith may be known only to God.

Most Protestants are uncomfortable with this because over time they have come to use the word “pray” as equivalent with “worship” rather than as equivalent with “ask.” And obviously we don’t worship the dead, whether they be in Heaven or in Purgatory. So be sure to make that distinction. Show your friend the great cloud of witnesses the author of Hebrews describes in chapter 10 and summarizes in 11:1 - our heavenly cheering section.

Also, and I’m sure you know this, don’t get trapped into a discussion that implies that ones state of grace can be changed after death. Everyone who is undergoing purgatory is already saved by grace.

Jesus could say to the repentent thief “this day you will be with me in paradise” because at the moment of death he would exit time and enter the eternal day.

I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38