A discussion with fellow catholics :)

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johnmarston

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I’m new here. And I believe I’m an atheist (I don’t believe in god the way the catholic church preaches).

I’m here because I like to talk about religion, discuss beliefs and ideas.
I’ve got catholic friends (some of them are in Madrid to attend that big event with the Pope), I know 3 jews and 1 buddhist.
But we don’t actually discuss religion (even tough it’s something that when we do, we respect everyone’s beliefs), we’re young so, honestly, we don’t care much. Except I do care a little bit, I like to get to know new ideas and understand how people view things.

From what I understand from the Catholic Church, it represents a guideline that a man should follow. Tells them what should be done and what shouldn’t.
I personally disagree with lots of things the catholic church teaches.

What I want mostly to discuss with you is the lifestyle my generation lives in.
So, I’m 18, I’m going to college next year. I’ve always been a good student but, more importantly, I like to think of myself as a good person, here’s why:

I love my family and I do the best to keep the union.
I like to help people. (eg: As a student, I’ve aided many colleagues getting good grades). I feel great when I’m useful to someone.
I’ve done several small good deeds throughout my life.

Of course I have done bad things (who hasn’t), but I’m very conscious, hard-working and I try to make up for my mistakes.

But, like I said, I’m 18. I’m a teenager and I enjoy it.
Here is my point of view regarding some subjects that are present in my life:

Masturbation:
Started doing it when I was 13. Can’t figure something wrong with it, I see it as a way to get to know our own body (and it feels good). Why is the Catholic Church against it?

Sex:

My sex life started when I was 16 and, like every other human being, I love it. The best thing of it is that I can spend a great time having sex with someone I really care about, so we have lots of fun doing it.
With my girlfriend I do it safely (condom and pill), of course we don’t want any children at this age, neither we think of marrying, but we honestly like each other and sex is a part of our lives.

Even my catholic friends have an active sex life, and no one sees anything wrong with it.

It’s something that belongs to this generation and I think that’s positive (when it’s done safely, otherwise it’s too risky).

Is this lifestyle guiding us to hell (or some other bad place) according to Catholic beliefs?

Thank you for reading 🙂
 
johnmarston said:
I’m .

From what I understand from the Catholic Church, it represents a guideline that a man should follow. Tells them what should be done and what shouldn’t.
I personally disagree with lots of things the catholic church teaches.
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two contradictory statements
first you admit you understand very little or only vaguely what the Catholic Church teaches, then you say you disagree with most of it.
before agreeing or disagreeing, learn what it is. Any parish close to you has a process to do that. and yes discussion here on the appropriate forums is a great place to start. Nobody here is really interested in intimate details of your life, nor is the internet the best place to share them. This forum is for asking specific questions about the moral teaching of the Church. The forum descriptions in the stickies can guide you to forums for the topics that interest you the most. Enjoy the ride.

even a committed non-religionist can simply look at current social science research and see that sex outside marriage has been a disaster for society and realize that mode of life is not healthy for individuals, families, children or society as a whole.
 
I don’t know much about it, true, but I’m aware of the Catholic Church’s position about a few subjects.

And I’m here to see if I could get to know more ideas from Christians, know what you think of this generation, get it?

(besides, I’ve seen much more intimate question here, so what I said served as an introduction to some topics)
 
puzzleannie said:
even a committed non-religionist can simply look at current social science research and see that sex outside marriage has been a disaster for society and realize that mode of life is not healthy for individuals, families, children or society as a whole.
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Why is sex outside marriage a disaster? What’s wrong with it??
 
Nope, I don’t “get it”.

If you want to post a question on a specific subject, go ahead, or jump right in an existing thread. The forums are not set up to discuss “a few subjects” within each thread. You’ve posted some vague questions so far, how about one specific thing. Once you get that going, you can start another thread on another specific thing.

Methinks the reason why people are not jumping in this thread is that there’s nothing substantive to discuss.
 
I could just say sex. But that way it would seem like I’m trolling (an atheist in a catholic forum talking about sex?) Well, that’s what’s happening, but I’m not trolling, I’m just trying to understand your point of view of it.
 
Hi johnmarston,

Incidentally, I recently posted a thread about the philosophical foundations of the Church’s teaching on sexual morality. You will find all the rationale there.

One thing to caution you: it’s not really meaningful to talk about “good people” or “bad people” the way the Church means goodness. Perhaps you mean that you’re a person who in principle does good things, and that may be the case – but that’s not very meaningful, and it certainly doesn’t mean that every single thing you do is necessarily good. Heaven is probably bursting with people who did considerable evil when they lived; Hell with those who did considerable good.

As regards your specific question: “Is this lifestyle guiding us to hell (or some other bad place) according to Catholic beliefs?”

It is certainly the case that you are imperiling your soul by acting according to whatever you happen to like or think feels good rather than in accordance with the good. But it’s not for anyone living to say that you will go to Hell as a result.

I think it’s important for you to understand that the Catholic Church views Hell not merely as a temporal condition (i.e., being physically separated from God) but an ontological condition as well (i.e., a state of being). The person in Hell is there because he willed it: because he chose to pursue his own wishes and desires for himself than submit to God; because he fetishized his autonomy and exulted his impulses over God’s will.
 
Newbie2 said:
Nope, I don’t “get it”.

If you want to post a question on a specific subject, go ahead, or jump right in an existing thread. The forums are not set up to discuss “a few subjects” within each thread. You’ve posted some vague questions so far, how about one specific thing. Once you get that going, you can start another thread on another specific thing.

Methinks the reason why people are not jumping in this thread is that there’s nothing substantive to discuss.
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I don’t see what the harm in is in someone asking a few questions in good faith. We ought to be charitable with inquirers. (It certainly beats spamming threads like some folk do!)
 
sw85,
I’ll definitely read your article.

Well, now you got me thinking: I pursue my own wishes, and I don’t submit to any God. However, I do not pursue bad intentions, I pursue my own happiness, and the happiness of the ones I care about. I do not hurt people (at least intentionally) and I was raised with the most important values in life: respect and honor.

Would the pursuit of my own wishes make me a worse person than the one that submits to God?
 
johnmarston said:
sw85,
I’ll definitely read your article.

Well, now you got me thinking: I pursue my own wishes, and I don’t submit to any God. However, I do not pursue bad intentions, I pursue my own happiness, and the happiness of the ones I care about. I do not hurt people (at least intentionally) and I was raised with the most important values in life: respect and honor.

Would the pursuit of my own wishes make me a worse person than the one that submits to God?
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Again, what’s at issue here is not “being a good person.” That is a meaningless phrase in the context of how the Church understands goodness and it’s not really a determinant of salvation.

But to your answer question, to honor good only partially (which is necessarily what you’re doing if you pursue your own wishes and desires even when they are contrary to moral law) is not really a good thing. We’re not called to do good 60% of the time.

Hope that helps.
 
I get it 🙂

But wouldn’t it be unfair if I, the one that does whatever he pleases, went to heaven alongside someone who’s praised God and made sacrifices all over his life? It seems I wouldn’t deserve to go to heaven because the next man did more than me, or at least, he served God.
 
johnmarston said:
I get it 🙂

But wouldn’t it be unfair if I, the one that does whatever he pleases, went to heaven alongside someone who’s praised God and made sacrifices all over his life? It seems I wouldn’t deserve to go to heaven because the next man did more than me, or at least, he served God.
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Why would it be unfair? That guy would still fall far short of Heaven on his own merits. If he makes it to Heaven, he did so only by God’s grace – and the same will be true of you if you are admitted to Heaven (and I pray that you will be! 👍)

God’s grace is extended freely, to everyone who accepts it, entirely without precondition. If you accept it with your dying breath having lived a life of wretchedness and evil, you will awaken in “a far green country under a swift sunrise”. And if you live your life saying, “I’ll give everything to you, God – except this one thing, it’s all mine,” then you will have spent your life rejecting grace and preparing your soul for Hell. Indeed, in some sense, you will have been in Hell all along.
 
sw85,
I’ve read your article and it made me thinking. We have a totally different point of view regarding that matter.
It’s amazing, you see it as a natural thing that should only be done for its purpose (procreation). I see it as something that can also be done in order to have a good time with my partner.

The way I see it, doing it shouldn’t make me a worse person than the one that doesn’t do it.
And you have confirmed that, after all, our beliefs aren’t that different after all. We try to spread the “good” and avoid the “evil”, even tough you believe in God and I don’t. And I think that is what really matters.
 
I think God placed in each person an awareness, no matter how big or small that may be, of Someone who is supreme over everyone and everything . So although I respect your position, I don’t really believe in atheism.

The Church shows us the way to holiness which prepares our eternal soul to be united with God, after our physicality is dead. The way involves, among other things, obedience and submission to God’s definition of what is good, while a human being’s idea of what is good is a moving target.

A person who repents on their death bed could be granted heaven since God desires all people to be united with him in this life and the next. One big, happy family.
 
johnmarston said:
sw85,
I’ve read your article and it made me thinking. We have a totally different point of view regarding that matter.
It’s amazing, you see it as a natural thing that should only be done for its purpose (procreation). I see it as something that can also be done in order to have a good time with my partner.
Click to expand...
I didn’t say it should only be done for procreation, nor is that the Church’s position. I only said that sex should be had in a manner consistent with the end of procreation, i.e., with intravaginal ejaculation (hence no masturbation, contraception, withdrawal, etc.).

There is of course a unitive aspect to sex, too, that the Church recognizes, but it’s subordinate to the procreative one. There is a unitive aspect only because sex produces children: because nature makes sexual partners grow more fully in love precisely because it’s necessary to cement family bonds and thus to fulfill the procreative nature of sex. (This also implies that sex should be had solely within the context of marriage).

Nor did I say “I see it that way” – sexual morality is not an arbitrary and subjective value judgment but a matter of objective and logical necessity. Our natures demand it; what I presented was a logical proof, not a baseless assertion. If the logic is flawed, surely you can point out where the flaw is?
The way I see it, doing it shouldn’t make me a worse person than the one that doesn’t do it.
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Again, it is meaningless to talk about being a “good person” or “bad person.” These are nonsequiturs – “good” or “bad” refers to an action, and the goodness or badness of an action refers to how well it accords with natural law.
And you have confirmed that, after all, our beliefs aren’t that different after all. We try to spread the “good” and avoid the “evil”, even tough you believe in God and I don’t. And I think that is what really matters.
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I’ll be happy to correct your misconception of a Godless universe, as well, if you like. 👍
 
Hi, welcome to CAF 🙂

If I may, I just wanted to share with you my perspective on Catholicism. Yes, it gives us a guideline of how to live… but that is not really the heart of the faith. At the very center of Catholicism, is the idea that we can know truth not only as facts, but as a Person… .that our faith comes from an encounter with Jesus Christ. Through this encounter, - through faith, the Sacraments, and the Church… (if we open up to God, of course, it depends on our disposition) - we begin to have a new perspective on life. This perspective, gives understanding of why certain things are sins. For example, we begin to see why sex before marriage is bad or why masturbation is bad. To answer your question about that, - we believe that God meant sex to be procreative and unitive. It’s meant to be a self giving between spouses… not something selfish, not something for own pleasure, etc… to self giving… and this union becomes blessed by God, in His Church, through the Sacrament of marriage. In the case of masturbation, it’s lust not love and it’s selfish not self giving, so it violates the whole purpose of human sexuality. It’s similar with contraception, homosexuality, etc.

There’s something I found to be true, but it’s not just me, it’s many other Catholics too… and that is: once we begin to know Christ, that gives a joy that completely surpasses anything in the world. That is why when we are close to Him, it doesn’t seem like such a big deal to give up premarital sex, etc, because we see we have found something greater and it’s worth it. Not only that, but it gives us greater respect for our future spouse.

There are Catholics who unfortunately don’t follow the Church’s teachings, but that is sad and maybe they have not yet come to a point of understanding them, or maybe they need to deepen in their faith with Christ. But personally, I have many Catholic friends who do follow the Church’s teachings faithfully.

God bless 🙂
 
To the OP,
It seems that God has called you in some way. Keep asking questions. I recommend taking a look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It actually is an interesting read. There are also RCIA classes, you might someday go to. They are about dialogue and finding answers about the Church.
The culture that surrounds us is not really any different than those cultures that have come and gone before, but God is constant and is waiting for you.

👍
Peace
 
I just entered high school, so i dont know a whole lot about the topic other than what I have read. Basically what I have gotten is that to love is to give, to lust is to take. If you just want to have a good time you are probably taking, so it is lust. Im not trying to be hurtful and I struggle with some of the same problems. (disclaimer is for the fact that i have a tendancy to be condescending. I dont mean to.) If you are giving your whole self (your sacred vow of eternal fidelity[marrige] and fertility included, sex is truly an expression of love. Any help?
 
Cable,
you may or may not be right. I consider myself an atheist because I don’t believe in the same God the Catholic Church does (neither any other God from other religion). However, I do like to believe the universe was created by a bigger entity, someone/something outside our reach that gave a beginning to everything we now. But I honestly don’t think that a God is watching us, judging us, punishing us, drawing our fate, etc.
To be honest, I don’t think much about the after life, I think it is a waste of time because there is no way of knowing for sure what’s next, the present is what matters (for me).

Monica4316,
I think I get your point. For you, following Christ is much more important that falling in temptation, so it makes you feel better. Respect 🙂

Sarahforgiven,
surely I don’t think that God called me here by any way (obviously :p), religion is a subject I like to talk about because, in my opinion, no one holds the definite true. So, I don’t consider myself “superior” just because I believe in something much different than you, neither I consider Catholics, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, etc, superior just because they believe something I don’t.
But I’ll keep asking questions and improve my knowledge about it 🙂

What I like to see is an open dialogue between people with different beliefs. I’m sure the world would be a much better place if everyone accepted the difference between religions 🙂

teenphilo1,
well, I’m not the best person to explain this according to the Church’s beliefs, but I’d say you’re right. Sex is a thing that should be done with the chosen person,the one person you truly love, after you’re united forever trough marriage.
I’ve finished high school this year and sex is a common thing during that period, what I suggest is: stick to your beliefs, do it only when you feel ready (if you think you’ll only be ready after marriage, don’t rush it).

Peace:thumbsup:
 
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