A Few Questions (About Evolution)

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The Catholic church has no difficulty with the evidence that humans evolved from other animals.

It asserts (correctly I believe) that Adam and Eve were real people, even some of Genesis is allegorical and not literal history.
 
(Barbarian points out that polygenism isn’t a Catholic doctrine)

Used to be a common belief among some sects, but I don’t think it has ever been so in the Catholic Church.

Yes.

I don’t know why you’d think that; he explicitly denies polygenism.

I’m puzzled why you’d cite him, when he clearly denies it.
I apparently misunderstood what you were saying because the way you phrased it didn’t sound the way you intended it to me.

It sounded to me like you were saying that those who rejected polygenism used to be a common belief among some sects, but that you did not think it had ever been rejected in the Catholic Church.

Look at how the words are phrased in your text.

Here we read The_Truthinator’s orginal question…
  1. What’s the deal with polygenism? Is it credible? (Let’s stray away from, “IT’S ALL EVIL LIES CONDEMNED BY THE CHURCH!”
Here he’s asking us if polygenism is credible (and asks us to avoid the fact that the Church condemns polygenism).

Then you answered to this question with the statement that it used to be a common belief among some sects, but I don’t think it has ever been so in the Catholic Church.

I thought that you were saying that the Catholic Church never said polygemism was condemned by the Catholic Church-- whereas you apparently intended to say the Catholic Church never accepted polygenism and did indeed forbid its teaching, correct?

If so, my apologies for the misunderstanding.
 
Interesting responses, guys! Thanks!

Questions 2.0:
  1. If Adam and Eve are regarded as real, historic individuals, where are we to classify them among their *Homo sapien *predecessors (and contemporaries)? Does this imply (necessarily) that they lived amongst identical creatures that were not, for their part, endowed with rational souls? If so, then how do those that maintain such a position hold that their offspring never mated with the “look-alikes,” so to speak?
  2. Is there any credance to the theory that two Homo sapiens in the remote past were both biologically and spiritually superior to their contemporaries and thus constituted an Adam-Eve sort of position, from whence modern humans are derived? In other words, two individuals were fundamentally (genetically and spiritually) set apart from their peers and bore a greater resemblance to modern humanity… I’ve heard people asserting something like this, even claiming that Discovery put out an article about the “genetic Eve,” and it sparked my interest.
  3. If you are an evolutionist of some type, sort, or nature, briefly explain your conviction please (especially if you feel it particularly in line with Church teaching). No special creation theories right now, please…
Thanks again!
To spare you a long reply, I’ll make it short:

I don’t see how, in any way, the theory of evolution voids God. I actually think that macro evolution points to a God since it simply can’t work without divine influence (genetics and all that). I think the only reason christians reacted to harshly to it, is because when it was presented, it was done so to finally say “look there is no God!”

As for Adam and Eve, I am not so shaky that I can’t say “I don’t know.” I am seeking answers to the question, but the simply truth is, I don’t know. I don’t know if they were the only humans created with the breath of soul, or if their children bred with “subhumans” inbred (not likely IMHO) or if their kids simply married humanoids that didn’t have the breath of God in them ( weirder things have happened) I do believe that there was a first man and woman. The first Homo Sapien. I don’t know how this all played out. I just have faith it did, and that’s good enough for now.
 
It’s important to realize that both of these are theological positions, rather than scientific ones.

In our time the word science has come to mean the study of phenomena observable in the physical universe, things with physical existance and their workings and relationships to one another. The natural sciences of biology, chemisty, physics, astronomy are disciplines we call science today. Aquinas shows that theology is a science. Skeptics of the past claimed that the only knowledge, the only things we can be certain of are the things we can observe with our physical senses, and the instruments we make that extend their powers. This precludes us from knowing anything beyond the bounds of the physical universe. We can have no knowledge or awareness of anything spiritual, or know anything about spiritual truth if the skeptics are correct. We can never know anything by means of religious faith, by believing that which has been revealed.

This limits what we can know and this idea was the beginning of the thinking that the findings of natural sciences trump any other form of knowledge or knowing. The natural sciences work by postulating theories of how things in the physical universe work. The theories might accurately describe a phenomenon or not. A new theory might disprove an existing theory at any time. Using this model we can never know anything for certain, even about the physical universe. We can never know something as objectively true. We can never know that the theory of relativity or the theory of evolution is true. What then can we know for certain?

A famous English atheist recently anounced he can no longer believe that ther universe was not made. Its workings are so ordered that there had to be an orderer. He discovered Aquinas’ proof of God’s existence using natural intelligence without faith. So an intelligence outside the physical universe made the heavens and earth. If something is outside the physical universe of time and space is not observable by our senses, then its study is not within the jusrisdication of the natural sciences. They can say nothing about this thing if it has no measurable observable properties. If it exists outside the physical universe, having no mass or speed, then it must be a spiritual thing. If this thing or intelligence made everything that exists then whatever purpose things in existence have, are given purpose by their maker. Without their maker, or if they have no maker they can have no purpose.

The natural sciences can observe things that exist physically and their operations, but can say nothing about why they exist, their purpose. So Stephen Hawkings can say he spent his life trying to understand how the universe works and he succeeded, but he does not know why. The scientific study of man’s origins may or may not lead to a correct understanding of origins. Even if they do, the knowledge is useless to us in terms of understanding why we exist. We are trying to understand where we come from. But where are we going? As we learn more and more of the history of the universe, the movement of galaxies and how it all came into existence we realize we know nothing about why it came into existence, or why we came into existence and our sciences can not help us. Yet we wonder. We are curious to know this. For this we need theology. We are curious about where we came from, but also where we are going. We see we make choices that determine what our future will become what our world will look like, as our predecessors shaped the world we have today. How should we live to make tomorrow good? In order to direct our steps we need to know where we are supposed to be going, our purpose, our proper end. How can we know this other than guessing? We can only know why we exist, our purpose, where we are going, if the knowledge is revealed to us by the being who gives existence. Revelation, not evolution, tells us our origin and destiny is God.
 
The natural sciences can observe things that exist physically and their operations, but can say nothing about why they exist, their purpose…We can only know why we exist, our purpose, where we are going, if the knowledge is revealed to us by the being who gives existence. Revelation, not evolution, tells us our origin and destiny is God.

Wonderfully and accurately said. Thank you.
 
The natural sciences can observe things that exist physically and their operations, but can say nothing about why they exist, their purpose…We can only know why we exist, our purpose, where we are going, if the knowledge is revealed to us by the being who gives existence. Revelation, not evolution, tells us our origin and destiny is God.

Wonderfully and accurately said. Thank you.
You are welcome.
The next step to obtaining knowledge of ourselves then, is understanding the means of obtaining it. The means of knowing why we exist is faith. We believe that which is revealed. We do not figure it out. We understand that we can not figure out why we exist. We look at revelation, what it says, with our intellect and decide if it is reasonable. Revelation tells us more than information about ourselves. It tells us about the Being who made us and everything that exists, to the limited ability our finite minds have of understanding the infinite, and our relationship to Him, our purpose. It tells us of things that exist outside the material reality and our relationship to them. There are three options, acceptance, rejection, can’t decide, which is rejection. If one (the skeptic) insists we can only know what our physical senses can observe (what the natural sciences can tell us) then the possiblity of having any knowledge of spiritual things does not exist. This does not mean spiritual things do not exist. It means we can not know anything of them. We are in darkness. If one accepts this limitation to knowing, the conclusion we come to on the origins of existence and human life is that it was all an accident. While we can observe nothing, not a single thing, in the entire universe that is without cause, nothing is an accident, the skeptic tells himself everything is an accident. Accident is the magic of the skeptic as he contempates the origins of existence. Biological evolution affirms his delusion. Humans wonder about origin and destiny. Where we come from and where are we going? Why do we exist? Accidental existence can have no meaning or purpose. There can be no morals. Accidents, things with no purpose or meaning have no value. Murdering accidents has no consequence. There is nothing for which to hope. This not knowing, leads to despair as we see in the lives of the famous skeptics. Despair is a sin against the Holy Spirit, along with resistance to the known truth, and final impenitance, revelation tells is. So Jesus says that the sin that convicts the world is unbelief (rejection of revelation). That said, what can the study of evolution gain you?
 
I hope people here will come to realize that when a scientist appears on television and is asked, “Didn’t God breathe life into man’s nostrils?” And the reply from the scientist is “No.” That does a lot more than any science class in any public school. When this same scientist refers to the Christian God in the following manner, “We no longer believe in the Greek and Roman gods, I’m simply adding one more.” the people decide that they either believe or don’t believe this man. But as a scientist, they are more likely to at least be confused by his words. After all, because he is a scientist, he should know what he’s talking about, right?

So let’s get this “science says absolutely nothing about God” nonsense out of the way. When the courts are moved by atheists, school children see that picture of Jesus being carried out of their school or that copy of the Ten Commandments, or the same at their local courthouse.

Evolution is the battering ram being applied to the Church’s door. But as a theory, it makes little sense. This accident, followed by this accident, followed by this accident. And the origin of the first life on earth, arbitrarily cut off from evolution because “it’s a separate issue.” Nonsense. It’s being presented as an unexplained (and I’ve read all the guesses about how it ‘might’ have happened) given. Come on, people!

The current Pope and the one previous took scientists at their word. And something like evolution may have occurred. And if it did, it was guided by divine providence, which is the correct answer, the Catholic answer.

God bless,
Ed
 
You are obviously taken by political ideas. None of that concerns me.

**The problem is truth doesnt concern you. Now I guess you are going to start over again and retreat from “some form of Evolution is correct” to it never happened at all. These are not political ideas but scientific ones and you of course know this. Your stubborness in refusing to give up your personal philosophy and try to pass it off as church teaching is most sad and dishonest. **

From Human Persons Created in the Image of God, part 69:

"An unguided evolutionary process - one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence - simply cannot exist because “the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles…It necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence” (Summa theologiae I, 22, 2).

divine providence
**How in the world do you think this statement supports you? It does exactly the opposite. **

Ed
 
There are three options, acceptance, rejection, can’t decide, which is rejection. If one (the skeptic) insists we can only know what our physical senses can observe (what the natural sciences can tell us) then the possiblity of having any knowledge of spiritual things does not exist.
I would guess this is true, but I’m missing the point. Clearly people of faith do not make such a declaration however. They may believe in both science and in the supernatural.
This does not mean spiritual things do not exist. It means we can not know anything of them. We are in darkness. If one accepts this limitation to knowing, the conclusion we come to on the origins of existence and human life is that it was all an
accident.
**This would be true only from the prospective of someone who declared that truth can only come from the senses. That would be the atheist I believe. **

While we can observe nothing, not a single thing, in the entire universe that is without cause, nothing is an accident, the skeptic tells himself everything is an accident. Accident is the magic of the skeptic as he contempates the origins of existence. Biological evolution affirms his delusion.

**Biological evolution affirms nothing. It speaks to what the evidence shows period. It is USED one way no doubt by the “skeptic” but quite another by the believer. **
Humans wonder about origin and destiny. Where we come from and where are we going? Why do we exist?
Sure they do, and they seek theological answers for those things.

Accidental existence can have no meaning or purpose. There can be no morals. Accidents, things with no purpose or meaning have no value.

**I’m not at all sure I agree with this. Atheists I am told find meaning in life, can be very moral individuals, and find value in living. Your logic is missing here. **
Murdering accidents has no consequence. There is nothing for which to hope. This not knowing, leads to despair as we see in the lives of the famous skeptics.
**It may for all I know, yet I doubt that can be said of all skeptics and again…so what? what has this got to do with the efficacy of evolution as a scientific model of how live evolved? **

Despair is a sin against the Holy Spirit, along with resistance to the known truth, and final impenitance, revelation tells is. So Jesus says that the sin that convicts the world is unbelief (rejection of revelation). That said, what can the study of evolution gain you?
I’m at a loss what you think you have established. Why study evolution? for the same reason we study astronomy, physics, geology and a plethora of other disciples. Because we are questioning creatures and because a lot we learn turns out way useful in treating disease, growing more food, protecting the planet, and on and on and on.
 
Francis Collins describes the differences between ID and TE far better than I can in his book,* The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief *

One problem with ID is that it presumes that science will NOT find a mechanism that explains the evolution of complex structures. Collins makes the point that science is beginning to envision means by which such complexity could arise via evolution.

There was once a cartoon in which a man is standing at a blackboard with numerous complex formulae written on it, followed by the words “and then a miracle happens…” This cartoon describes the approach of 6-day creationists as well as ID, but it is not really good science to conclude that just because we do not now have a good explanation for an event, it can be due only to divine intervention. This is not to say that divine intervention does not occur, only that such events are normally outside the realm of scientific inquiry.
 
I hope people here will come to realize that when a scientist appears on television and is asked, “Didn’t God breathe life into man’s nostrils?” And the reply from the scientist is “No.”

That does a lot more than any science class in any public school. When this same scientist refers to the Christian God in the following manner, “We no longer believe in the Greek and Roman gods, I’m simply adding one more.” the people decide that they either believe or don’t believe this man. But as a scientist, they are more likely to at least be confused by his words. After all, because he is a scientist, he should know what he’s talking about, right?

**So what would you suggest we do to dawkins? shoot him? Because someone who is also a scientist chooses to speak outside his profession in a manner you find offensive does that indict all science? What I find amusing is your arrogant determination that people aren’t smart enough to think for themselves but need your help. That’s at least the 4th time you’ve indicated Ed needs to save people from their inabiltity to think as rationally as he does. **

So let’s get this “science says absolutely nothing about God” nonsense out of the way. When the courts are moved by atheists, school children see that picture of Jesus being carried out of their school or that copy of the Ten Commandments, or the same at their local courthouse.

**Science doesnt and you cannot make it so by claiming that some scientists choose to speak as human beings and give their opinion about things they cannot prove or disprove. **

Evolution is the battering ram being applied to the Church’s door.
No its the battering ram you are fashioning to apply against the Church’s teachings today to turn it backward.
But as a theory, it makes little sense.
**But you are soon to say for the 7th time that some form of evolution is correct…read your own post further down please. **

This accident, followed by this accident, followed by this accident. And the origin of the first life on earth, arbitrarily cut off from evolution because “it’s a separate issue.” Nonsense. It’s being presented as an unexplained (and I’ve read all the guesses about how it ‘might’ have happened) given. Come on, people!

**Sorry but this is not argument, just your frustration that the philosophy of Ed is being ignored. **

The current Pope and the one previous took scientists at their word. And something like evolution may have occurred. And if it did, it was guided by divine providence, which is the correct answer, the Catholic answer.

**Yep, you for the 8th time have now agreed with what we have been saying the whole time. Next of course you will repudiate all of it and start over again. **

Ed
 
Evolution is about human origins.
Not at all. It’s vital to distinguish between evolution as a physical process in nature and the issue of abiogenesis (origin of life). The former is a biological process, while the latter is a question within the field of organic chemistry.
As written, it is entirely naturalistic - no God required.
Since the proper object of science is the natural world, it follows that supernatural realities are simply beyond the scope of scientific investigation. This doesn’t mean that “no God is required,” only that science is not equipped to say one way or the other. Science discusses and describes natural objects and phenomena, period. If you want to discuss the involvement of God, you’ll have to turn to theology.
Spontaneous generation of life is a false idea.
Again, this is an issue separate from evolution. In any case, no one is proposing anything like “spontaneous generation.” Rather, organic chemistry seeks to answer the question of how life might have arisen according to the inherent laws of nature. (Of course, Christians would ascribe any such development of life to the creative activity of God.)
God did something, not nothing.
Yes, he did. And this is a theological conviction which all Christians affirm. It is not, however, a scientific conclusion.

Blessings,

Don
+T+
 
I hope people here will come to realize that when a scientist appears on television and is asked, “Didn’t God breathe life into man’s nostrils?” And the reply from the scientist is “No.” That does a lot more than any science class in any public school.
It merely shows that some scientists are capable of occasionally making non-scientific statements.
When this same scientist refers to the Christian God in the following manner, “We no longer believe in the Greek and Roman gods, I’m simply adding one more.” the people decide that they either believe or don’t believe this man.
The scientist you’re referring to is simply stating his theological opinion. After all, not everything a scientist says is necessarily a scientific statement.
But as a scientist, they are more likely to at least be confused by his words. After all, because he is a scientist, he should know what he’s talking about, right?
About science, perhaps.
So let’s get this “science says absolutely nothing about God” nonsense out of the way.
There’s a profound difference between a scientist saying something about God, and science saying something about God.
When the courts are moved by atheists…
A great many evolutionary scientists are theists. Atheism is in no way intrinsic to the theory of evolution.
But as a theory, it makes little sense. This accident, followed by this accident, followed by this accident.
You appear to misunderstand the particular way in which the terms “random” and “chance” are used within science itself. No, evolution does not occur “by accident,” but according to the inherent laws of nature.
And the origin of the first life on earth, arbitrarily cut off from evolution because “it’s a separate issue.” Nonsense.
Perfect sense. Evolution is a process which occurs within the realm of living things----it operates on already-present life, it does not develop life. The origin of life is thus a separate issue (one within organic chemistry), and any confusion of the two is simply arbitrary and nonsensical.
And something like evolution may have occurred. And if it did, it was guided by divine providence, which is the correct answer, the Catholic answer.
…the theological answer.

Blessings,

Don
+T+
 
Catholics live in both the physical, science-can-study-it world AND in spiritual communion with God. What part of that don’t you get?

Anyone who says that science is over there while religion is over here is missing the entire point. We are physical science-can-study-it human beings and spiritual beings, in one. Got it?

Both come together in one place. We worship God but we do not worship science.

God bless,
Ed
 
TO THE CREATIONISTS IN THIS THREAT, THE OP ASKED US ABOUT THEISTIC EVOLUTION, SO WERE ARE HERE TO DISCUSS TE THEOLOGICAL PROBLEMS OF TE, NOT EVOLUTION VS WHATEVER. DO NOT HIGHJACK THIS TREAD.

Now back on theme.
1
) If Adam and Eve are regarded as real, historic individuals, where are we to classify them among their Homo sapien predecessors (and contemporaries)? Does this imply (necessarily) that they lived amongst identical creatures that were not, for their part, endowed with rational souls? If so, then how do those that maintain such a position hold that their offspring never mated with the “look-alikes,” so to speak?
  1. Is there any credance to the theory that two Homo sapiens in the remote past were both biologically and spiritually superior to their contemporaries and thus constituted an Adam-Eve sort of position, from whence modern humans are derived? In other words, two individuals were fundamentally (genetically and spiritually) set apart from their peers and bore a greater resemblance to modern humanity… I’ve heard people asserting something like this, even claiming that Discovery put out an article about the “genetic Eve,” and it sparked my interest.
  1. If you are an evolutionist of some type, sort, or nature, briefly explain your conviction please (especially if you feel it particularly in line with Church teaching). No special creation theories right now, please…
  1. If you study evolution if oftem a small change that makes a radical diference in the long term. The “humaniods” were human like us but some happened that made the genetic descendads of the first trully modern humans different to the rest and made that small mutation dominat into the species in few generations. And the offpring of the dominant couple becomes more suscessful that outlives and outbreeds the offpring of the others swanpping the gene pool.
  2. Yes, many scientists say that the advantageous mutation of the biological Adam must have been the capacity for symbolic thought and modern language that allowed him and his offpring to outsmart other humans and opened the way for culture, science and religion. In other words to think about God for example. But the biological eve is older that the male.
  3. I can talk about that.
 
Catholics live in both the physical, science-can-study-it world AND in spiritual communion with God. What part of that don’t you get?
I get it just fine, Ed, thanks. Yes, we live in both the natural and supernatural realms. However, science deals only with the natural realm. It does not----cannot----speak to supernatural realities such as God, angels, miracles, etc. So, while we Catholics certainly affirm the theological conviction that God created all things other than himself, we cannot call this a scientific conclusion.
Anyone who says that science is over there while religion is over here is missing the entire point. We are physical science-can-study-it human beings and spiritual beings, in one. Got it?
See previous answer above.

Blessings,

Don
+T+
 
I hope people here will come to realize that when a scientist appears on television and is asked, “Didn’t God breathe life into man’s nostrils?” And the reply from the scientist is “No.” That does a lot more than any science class in any public school. When this same scientist refers to the Christian God in the following manner, “We no longer believe in the Greek and Roman gods, I’m simply adding one more.” the people decide that they either believe or don’t believe this man. But as a scientist, they are more likely to at least be confused by his words. After all, because he is a scientist, he should know what he’s talking about, right?
One scientist does not speak for science, any more than one Christian speaks for Christianity. Even more so when that scientist is speaking about topics outside the realm of science.
So let’s get this “science says absolutely nothing about God” nonsense out of the way.
It is not nonsense, science does indeed say nothing about God. Individual scientists on the other hand can and do say things about God. As well as the atheist Dawkins there are also Christian scientists like Kenneth Miller (Catholic) and the late Theodosius Dobzhansky (Russian Orthodox). The opinions of individual scientists are not always “science” any more than the opinions of individual Christians are always “Christianity”; witness Falwell, Robertson, Phelps, Chick and many others with whom I am sure you disagree on many points.
When the courts are moved by atheists, school children see that picture of Jesus being carried out of their school or that copy of the Ten Commandments, or the same at their local courthouse.
The courts are moved by the Law; in the cases you are referring to, presumably the Constitution of the United States of America. In England the state supports many faith based schools: Anglican, Catholic, Jewish, Moslem, Sikh, Hindu and others. The laws are different in different countries. For one American Christian’s viewpoint on introducing religion into public schools see here. “Be careful what you ask for …”
Evolution is the battering ram being applied to the Church’s door. But as a theory, it makes little sense. This accident, followed by this accident, followed by this accident.
You need to learn more about evolution. Natural selection is not accidental.
And the origin of the first life on earth, arbitrarily cut off from evolution because “it’s a separate issue.” Nonsense. It’s being presented as an unexplained (and I’ve read all the guesses about how it ‘might’ have happened) given.
Biological evolution describes what happens in living populations. Until you get that first living thing then you do not have evolution because there is obviously no living population. Darwin called his book “On the Origin of Species”, not “On the Origin of Life and Species”. He was right to do so.

If it were shown tomorrow that God directly created the very first primitive living cell on earth then evolution would not change at all. Abiogenesis would change greatly, but not evolution; evolution only covers developments after the first primitive living cell.

rossum
 
Everyone should ask themselves what the primary driving force of atheism is. Nothing? Or evolution?

I contend that anyone who works for a major organization who makes any claims about human origins is rightly regarded as speaking for the entire organization. Professor Dawkins is not speaking in a vacuum, especially in the United States where the “popular” media presents mostly immoral fare and the Christian is the primary target of individuals wrongly referred to as ‘comedians.’

My view of evolution related science is that it has been corrupted and is being used as an ideological tool. Its value as science is also highly questionable.

God bless,
Ed
 
Everyone should ask themselves what the primary driving force of atheism is. Nothing? Or evolution?
I hate to have to state the obvious, but atheism existed long before 1859, when Darwin’s Origin of Species was first published. Evolutionary scientists certainly have no monopoly on disbelief. The driving force behind atheism (a theological conviction) is a fundamentally sinful human nature, not the theory of evolution (a scientific conclusion), which is affirmed by theists and atheists alike.
I contend that anyone who works for a major organization who makes any claims about human origins is rightly regarded as speaking for the entire organization.
Such “guilt-by-association” arguments simply don’t hold water, as a moment’s thought should reveal.

Blessings,

Don
+T+
 
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