A Few Questions (About Evolution)

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There are theistic evolutionists but there are Godless Evolutionists, too–why can’t some people understand that both kinds of Evolutionists do indeed exist?
What some fail to realize is that one’s particular religious views (whether theistic or atheistic) have no bearing whatsoever on whether or not a scientific theory like evolution is, in fact, true. Gravity works just the same for the atheist as well as for the theist. Chemical reactions occur identically for the theist and the atheist alike. Likewise with evolution. It’s been demonstrated conclusively on a strictly scientific basis, and the particular religions of the scientists who work with the theory have nothing at all to do with the matter.

Blessings,

Don
+T+
 
That Presupposes that truth can always be defined by matter.

It can’t!

The laws of the scientific universe were suspended when Jesus rose from the dead!

That’s Proof that scientific laws do not always remain in force.

An atheist would not believe that about truth.

A theist would believe that about truth!

So yes it does matter if one is a theistic evolutionist or an atheistic evolutionist.

One side would allow for the possibility of the suspension of physical laws.

The other side wouldn’t!

Jesus is Proof that physical Laws can be suspended!
 
That Presupposes that truth can always be defined by matter.

It can’t!

**This makes no sense whatsoever. Whatever are you talking about? **

The laws of the scientific universe were suspended when Jesus rose from the dead!

**How can you possibly prove this? **

That’s Proof that scientific laws do not always remain in force.
No its not
An atheist would not believe that about truth.
Probably with good reason
A theist would believe that about truth!
**No, I would stick to you believe this about truth. **
So yes it does matter if one is a theistic evolutionist or an atheistic evolutionist.

**nope, fraid not. **

One side would allow for the possibility of the suspension of physical laws.

The other side wouldn’t!

Jesus is Proof that physical Laws can be suspended!
**A course in philosophy 101 should come next on your agenda for life. **
 
Maybe a course on Jesus actually did suspend the laws of the universe should come in yours.

What part of that do you not understand?
 
WHILE ED AND THE OTHERS HAVE THE N DISCUSSION ABOUT EVOLUTION I GO WITH THE ORIGIN OF THE OP.
While I admit, I know very little, it occurs to me the level of connection that a man and woman in today’s society have to have before being ready for a life-long commitment. When pondering this, I couldn’t help but wonder if the Adam and Eve’s children simply could not bring themselves to “mate” with a soulless humanoid. For me personally, there has to be a certain connection on an intellectual and spiritual level, and I can’t help but feel that this is generally the case when searching for a spouse, or, in this case more properly, a partner.
Well evolution is a series of small changes during millons of years. The Humanois must have been almost human and have souls but not inmortal souls as the CC teaches about animals.
Thanks a lot. I want very badly answers. But God is slowly showing me that he’s enough.
You should avoid two heresies, Gnosticism that says that we can know everything and scientific concordism that makes theology match a current scientist theory (the error of the Church with Galileo).
His instruments (for this is truly what I believe evolution to be) put me in awe. His craftsmanship amazes me. I once had a former teacher, a devout Christian and memeber of the Church of Christ demon, tell me, “You simply can’t convince me that all this came from some primordial slime!” I at the time had no real opinion on Darwin (except what my peers, mostly Baptists, had to say). But I have since thought, “Perhaps this arising from something as repulsive in our finite minds as ‘primordial slime’ is one of the greatest miracles of all… Perhaps it’s just God being God, and taking little and making a lot, taking the chaos and giving it order, taking the shapeless and barren world and turning it into an Eden of sorts…”
Well said and may Christians, theists and deists think like you.
You should read the following.
  1. Father Teilhard de Chardin, french paleontologist and catholic priest, he devoted all his life to study evolution from a christian perspective. Any book by him.
  2. Kurt Schmitz-Mooreman, german catholic biologist, his book Teology in a evolutionary world.
  3. Francis Collins, The Language of God, protestant geneticist, he headed the Human Genome Project.
  4. Kenneth Millers catholic biologist, Finding Darwin’s God.
  5. John Farrell, A Day with out Yesterday, a book on the life of father Georges Lemaitre, the discoverer of the Big Bang theory.
    6)Theodusius Dobzhansy, russian orthodox biological genius and a expert on evolution. His landmark essay, Nothing in Biology makes sense without the light of evolution.
    Mabye someone should add some more. There are many Jews, Catholics and Protestants working in theistic comment on evolution.
    And the Pope book on Genesis.
 
That Presupposes that truth can always be defined by matter.
No, it presupposes that material truth (truth about the workings of the natural world) can be defined by matter (that is, by scientific investigation). Immaterial (supernatural) truths such as Christ’s resurrection (or any other miracle) cannot be defined or described by science. Miracles are an issue that falls into the categories of religious studies or theology.
The laws of the scientific universe were suspended when Jesus rose from the dead!
This is a theological conviction, rather than a scientific conclusion.
That’s Proof that scientific laws do not always remain in force.
That’s a theological conviction that scientific laws do not always remain in force.
An atheist would not believe that about truth.
True, an atheist would not hold to that particular theological conviction.
A theist would believe that about truth!
Yes, about theological truth.
So yes it does matter if one is a theistic evolutionist or an atheistic evolutionist.
It might matter to one’s theological position whether or not miracles occur, but it is entirely irrelevant to whether biological evolution is, in fact, a genuine process in nature.
One side would allow for the possibility of the suspension of physical laws. The other side wouldn’t!
Again, this is a theological issue, and not a scientific one.
Jesus is Proof that physical Laws can be suspended!
…a theological conviction that physical laws can be suspended.

Blessings,

Don
+T+
 
Maybe a course on Jesus actually did suspend the laws of the universe should come in yours.

What part of that do you not understand?
**I can do without the rude you know.It’s getting a little nauseating when I can be called a heretic, atheist, pantheist, “not a deep thinker” and other such garbage but I’m censured for saying someone’s remarks are “silly”. There is a definte difference in how this subjective rule of courtesy is applied.

As to your statement. I say only this. I defy you or anyone to know how Jesus rose from the dead. You have no idea nor do I. He did. And that’s all we know. Which law did he suspend in your opnion? gravity, electromagnetic force, the weak and strong forces? time? **
 
The Church does not artificially separate theology from science. They are always looked at together.

And the Church today, recognizes miracles. Any candidate for sainthood must have two miracles attributed to them. These are real suspensions of scientific laws.

God bless,
Ed
 
As to your statement. I say only this. I defy you or anyone to know how Jesus rose from the dead. You have no idea nor do I. He did. And that’s all we know. Which law did he suspend in your opnion? gravity, electromagnetic force, the weak and strong forces? time?
I agree that some of the comments made against you were rude-- and it does seem that this topic really does cause serious divisions. For that I am sorry.

But I thought this second part deserved mention.

I too would agree with you that I don’t know what laws Jesus suspended to bring forth the resurrection. However, I would suggest that probably all laws were suspended in order for it too happen-- gravity, electromagnetic force, and both the weak and strong forces too.

I would even go one step further and suggest that Jesus’ resurrection is probably somewhat akin to a the big bang where indeed all the laws of physics would have broken down-- for in Jesus we are a New Creation in Christ. 🙂
 
The Church does not artificially separate theology from science.
Pope Benedict XVI:
"Now more reflective spirits have long been aware that there is no either-or here. We cannot say: creation or
evolution, inasmuch as these two things respond to two different realities… (In the Beginning, p. 50).

According to the Holy Father, creation (theology) and evolution (science) reflect “two different realities.” Neither can pronounce upon the other. The Church is confined in its pronouncements to issues of faith and morals (theology), and cannot properly resolve matters of science.
And the Church today, recognizes miracles.
Yes, the Church is equipped to pronounce upon this theological matter.
These are real suspensions of scientific laws.
Whether or not miracles involve a suspension of natural laws is itself a theological issue, and not a question of science.

Blessings,

Don
+T+
 
Hello Don,

You’ve got it wrong. Science is expounded upon by the Church as it regards theology and science.

From Human Persons Created in the Image of God:

Part 69

“An unguided evolutionary process - one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence - simply cannot exist…”

I do not step into the Church building to hear one thing and then to Science class to hear another. Also from Part 69:

“In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science.”

I only view things from the Catholic perspective. God is alive and real each day, not as a theological concept but as a person.

God bless,
Ed
 
Science is expounded upon by the Church as it regards theology and science.
No, theology is expounded upon as it relates to the occasional non-scientific statements of certain scientists (such as Dawkins).
“An unguided evolutionary process - one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence - simply cannot exist…”
A theological statement based upon the Catholic worldview.
“In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science.”
This is an example of the Church commenting theologically upon the non-scientific statements of certain scientists.

Blessings,

Don
+T+
 
This is textbook evolution that is being commented on. No scientist is named or alluded to. I don’t think you are making the very necessary connection between science and theology.

God bless,
Ed
 
I agree that some of the comments made against you were rude-- and it does seem that this topic really does cause serious divisions. For that I am sorry.

But I thought this second part deserved mention.

I too would agree with you that I don’t know what laws Jesus suspended to bring forth the resurrection. However, I would suggest that probably all laws were suspended in order for it too happen-- gravity, electromagnetic force, and both the weak and strong forces too.

I would even go one step further and suggest that Jesus’ resurrection is probably somewhat akin to a the big bang where indeed all the laws of physics would have broken down-- for in Jesus we are a New Creation in Christ. 🙂
Thats fine, I just wonder on what it is based. Moreover how would itit affect my faith whether he suspended a law, all laws, or no laws. ?
 
Hello Don,

You’ve got it wrong. Science is expounded upon by the Church as it regards theology and science.

**Actually its you who don’t have it right. You continue to try to impose a marriage of science and theology where NO ONE else does. **

From Human Persons Created in the Image of God:

Part 69

“An unguided evolutionary process - one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence - simply cannot exist…”

**A theological statement that science cannot enter the realm of the supernatural. Correct. **

I do not step into the Church building to hear one thing and then to Science class to hear another.
**Where is this from? **

Also from Part 69:

“In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science.”

**Absolutely correct. A theological statement that science cannot venture into the area of supernatural events and cannot therefore deny their existence. It is not their province of operation. See Ed, this is where you’ve answered your own argument that science must INCLUDE God. The Church tells science to stay away from God issues…Now do you finally see? **

Ed
Now I think you may be able to move on. You’ve inadvertently discovered the Church’s response to your call for God in the textbook…And I’m sure being the good Catholic you are who filters everthing as you say through your Catholicity, you will change your position.
 
Nonsense. The average person in an average conversation does not pause and put on their science hat to discuss science, and then pause again, while putting on their religion hat, to discuss religion.

My position is the Church’s position: science that violates Church teaching is violating Church teaching. Period. You can keep them separate if you want but I’m not.

God bless,
Ed
 
Nonsense. The average person in an average conversation does not pause and put on their science hat to discuss science, and then pause again, while putting on their religion hat, to discuss religion.

My position is the Church’s position: science that violates Church teaching is violating Church teaching. Period. You can keep them separate if you want but I’m not.

God bless,
Ed
I’m really trying to understand your point in these debates. Could you explain which of these statement you agree or disagree with:

Life did not evolve from common ancestors.

Life did evolve, but it wasn’t random.

Life did evolve, but life did not come from non-organic beginnings.

Life is too complex to have evolved.

Catholics can not believe in evolution.

Catholics can believe in evolution, but they can not talk about it in mechanistic terms.

Catholics can believe in evolution, and they can talk about about it in mechanistic terms, but they must always remember that God chose the world to be the way it was.

Catholics should believe in Intelligent Design.

Evolution leads to atheism.
 
Did life evolve from common ancestors?

Consider, except for dinosaurs in their large, lizard-like, non-feathered forms and a few other cases, ALL of our common ancestors are still with us, from microbes to more complex life forms. I contend that the reason for this is the gravity, atmosphere and composition of planet earth. If some evolution occurred, and there is evidence for some, they were guided into their current niches.

There is some evidence for evolution but it was not random as described in textbooks. It appears mutations, genetic drift and environmental pressures were not sufficient to cause the large scale changes noted. Again, guidance was required.

The concept of life not arising spontaneously from non-living organic material is well established. I have read the various theories for abiogenesis and none are convincing. One just simply moves the question to non-terrestrial sources. No experiment has been done that conclusively shows life arising from some mix of chemicals.

Life appears to be designed, and developed in an open, non-laboratory environment that was dynamic. Threats were not limited to predators, but also disease, accident related injury, weather related damage to sources of food and water (drought), plus some evidence of catastrophic changes in some areas due to flood, volcanic activity or even comets. Evolution appears to be limited.

Catholics have been told by Pope Benedict that there is some evidence for evolution.

When evolution, as described in textbooks, tells the reader that the theory is the best explanation of how we got here in purely mechanistic terms, Catholics need to be aware of several things. One, a purely mechanistic explanation is incompatible with Church Teaching (see Human Persons Created in the Image of God). Second, that this mechanistic analysis reduces man to a biological mechanism that is driven by its genes. Our only purpose is to reproduce successfully. Our genes are all. They create the brain which creates the mind. Aside from easily confirmed sensory (name removed by moderator)uts, all other thoughts are illusory. Already, offshoots of this thinking has led to a belief that a gene has been discovered for altruism and one for hedonism. Another offshoot thought suggests that religion was invented by primitive men to cope with their environment, and to insure survival only from the standpoint of reproducing successfully; no other reason (like, you know, divine revelation). Continued
 
Catholics should not believe in the purely mechanistic because we have been told by divine revelation, and recently, by Pope Benedict, that each of us is wanted and each of us is loved. We are in communion (or not) with the person of God.

Catholics should believe in a God guided form of development. The answer, as provided by the Church: “Divine causality can be active in a process that is both contingent and guided.” Italics in original - Human Persons Created in the Image of God, part 69.

Unfortunately, whatever merit was contained in the original proposal for Intelligent Design has been swept away partly by politics, and by other criticisms. Catholics should study evolution as presented in the textbooks along with the fact that God participated in His creation.

Evolution, as presented in textbooks, is complete in itself and with no supernatural intervention of any kind being required, and does lead to mechanistic, atheistic thinking. By definition, often repeated here, science makes no comment about God. The rational, reasonable thing for those without a supernatural worldview is to accept it as the purely mechanistic force it is. The universe did not care that you appeared and will not care once you, and the rest of humanity, are gone. Perhaps man will be replaced with some “higher” life form. Atheists, naturalists, materialists, and objectivists (from the Ayn Rand school) can all live with this. Catholics cannot.

As Catholics, we need to look at both God and Science simultaneously. Whether we realize it or not, each one of us has a worldview. We need to choose the Word that became flesh, true God and true man. If we do not choose, or do not accept, we are on the wide road that leads away from God. A relativistic world, like the one that is currently being promoted by the media, that has no absolutes or way to measure the true worth of its progress.

God bless,
Ed
 
Did life evolve from common ancestors?
Yes. The evidence for that is overwhelming, from the commonality of DNA, to the fact that several different lines of evidence give us the same family tree as was first noted by Linneaus (a creationist, no less) Would you like to learn about some of it?
Consider, except for dinosaurs in their large, lizard-like, non-feathered forms
I don’t know of any lizard-like dinosaurs. Although we are not, as you suggest, descendants of dinosaurs, we are more closely related to dinosaurs than either of us is related to lizards.
and a few other cases, ALL of our common ancestors are still with us, from microbes to more complex life forms.
Hmm… no. The vast majority of them are extinct. Far more species are extinct than are alive today.
I contend that the reason for this is the gravity, atmosphere and composition of planet earth.
Is this a scientific hypothesis, with evidence, or just a personal religious idea?
If some evolution occurred, and there is evidence for some, they were guided into their current niches.
Darwin called it “natural selection.” We can still see it working.
There is some evidence for evolution but it was not random as described in textbooks.
Someone’s had a little fun with you on that. Darwin’s great discovery was that it wasn’t random.
It appears mutations, genetic drift and environmental pressures were not sufficient to cause the large scale changes noted.
Would you like to see some of the evidence that confirms that these were indeed the causes?
The concept of life not arising spontaneously from non-living organic material is well established.
You’ve confused abiogenesis with evolution, again, Ed.
I have read the various theories for abiogenesis and none are convincing.
How would you know? Do you actually understand biochemistry well enough to say?
Catholics have been told by Pope Benedict that there is some evidence for evolution.
If by that you mean he said that common descent is “virtually certain”, then yes, he did say that.
When evolution, as described in textbooks, tells the reader that the theory is the best explanation of how we got here in purely mechanistic terms,
Which textbook said that, Ed? Give me a checkable lead. I review biology textbooks from time to time, and I’ve never seen that one.
Our only purpose is to reproduce successfully.
They were messing with you on that one too, Ed. Science doesn’t (and can’t) say what our purpose is. You won’t find that in a science textbook.

I think you could go a long way in resolving this by answering Sideline’s questions, not by ignoring them.
 
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