A few questions about the tragedy in Normandy

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Question one. Would it be appropriate for French Catholics, or any Catholic for that matter, to step up efforts to convert Muslims in response to such a tragedy?

Question two. Would it be appropriate for the Catholic Church in France to step up efforts to seek candidates for the priesthood in response to this tragedy? There has been a precipitous shortage of priests in France, work has been done in general, but is it appropriate to use this as a call to…not to arms, but to the priesthood?

Question three. How long has it been, exactly, since a member of the Catholic clergy was beheaded, martyred, and then made a saint? Most of the historical examples I’ve been able to find are very ancient, but I know I haven’t found the most comprehensive sources. There are some people who are calling for this recently-murdered French priest to be sainted (a man who survived Nazi occupation and served well past retirement age, only to go out like this during a Mass). How realistic is this? How quickly could it happen, if it does? Under such circumstances, would anyone be looking around to see if two different miracles can be verified that had anything to do with him, or would that part probably be waived? And again, what does the precedent look like for this sort of thing, and what can we expect to see the Church doing with this particular situation?

That was a lot of questions packaged into number three. Any further information would be most appreciated.
 
Question one. Would it be appropriate for French Catholics, or any Catholic for that matter, to step up efforts to convert Muslims in response to such a tragedy?
Yes, though it’s a little late in the day, and you’d be battling not just embattled, militant Islam, but the general secular attitude of French society.
Question two. Would it be appropriate for the Catholic Church in France to step up efforts to seek candidates for the priesthood in response to this tragedy? There has been a precipitous shortage of priests in France, work has been done in general, but is it appropriate to use this as a call to…not to arms, but to the priesthood?
That’s an idea I can get behind. 👍
Question three. How long has it been, exactly, since a member of the Catholic clergy was beheaded, martyred, and then made a saint? Most of the historical examples I’ve been able to find are very ancient, but I know I haven’t found the most comprehensive sources. There are some people who are calling for this recently-murdered French priest to be sainted (a man who survived Nazi occupation and served well past retirement age, only to go out like this during a Mass). How realistic is this? How quickly could it happen, if it does? Under such circumstances, would anyone be looking around to see if two different miracles can be verified that had anything to do with him, or would that part probably be waived? And again, what does the precedent look like for this sort of thing, and what can we expect to see the Church doing with this particular situation?
That was a lot of questions packaged into number three. Any further information would be most appreciated.
If I’m not mistaken, St. John XXIII was canonized without waiting for a second miracle. So there is a sort of precedent for this. However, I defer to more knowledgeable posters on the issue. 🙂
 
The technical term is “canonized.” 🙂

Archbishop Oscar Romero was also assassinated during Mass, and I understand he was canonized after a full investigation of his life and miracles.
 
Saint JP2 was canonized after ten years, but the process normally requires generations.

Martyrdom however, shortens the process to an extent.

ICXC NIKA
 
Question one. Would it be appropriate for French Catholics, or any Catholic for that matter, to step up efforts to convert Muslims in response to such a tragedy?
I don’t think this is a reasonable response, frankly, in the face of militants who have been radicalised. Religion is an aspect of the human person that is deeply and intensely held. I can only imagine that a concerted targeted effort to convert Muslims living in France would be as negatively received by individual Muslims as the reaction I would have, as a Catholic priest, if I were working as a chaplain to the Catholic community in a country that was majority Muslim and found myself being proactively targeted in an effort by the society and its citizenry to convert me to Islam. I would consider that behaviour antagonistic. That there should be outreach, by all means.
Question two. Would it be appropriate for the Catholic Church in France to step up efforts to seek candidates for the priesthood in response to this tragedy? There has been a precipitous shortage of priests in France, work has been done in general, but is it appropriate to use this as a call to…not to arms, but to the priesthood?
The decision to seek priesthood is not like volunteering in the military/national service after a national tragedy. Volunteering to serve one’s country can involve a short span of a few years enlistment to a career long decision of 20 years or more…but one continues to have a certain autonomy…to marry and have a family, to plan a life and career after one’s national service.

Becoming a priest is in response to a vocation from God…not a response to a calamity. It involves discernment on the part of the Church and the man who feels called. It involves years of study and preparation in order to then make a life-long commitment…a commitment to forego marriage and children and every other form of career until death. It is, as I say, a radically different commitment from a decision to enlist for a few years of service to one’s country.
Question three. How long has it been, exactly, since a member of the Catholic clergy was beheaded, martyred, and then made a saint? Most of the historical examples I’ve been able to find are very ancient, but I know I haven’t found the most comprehensive sources. There are some people who are calling for this recently-murdered French priest to be sainted (a man who survived Nazi occupation and served well past retirement age, only to go out like this during a Mass). How realistic is this? How quickly could it happen, if it does? Under such circumstances, would anyone be looking around to see if two different miracles can be verified that had anything to do with him, or would that part probably be waived? And again, what does the precedent look like for this sort of thing, and what can we expect to see the Church doing with this particular situation?
We have men and women who are killed for the faith every year. Some of Mother Teresa’s Sisters just were martyred a few months ago.

cnsnews.com/news/article/lauretta-brown/surviving-nun-gives-chilling-eyewitness-account-isis-murder-4-catholic

Among the more famous in recent times were Trappist monks in Algeria. Their story became quite famous. But there were many others in those same years.

africamission-mafr.org/sang_martyrgb.htm

vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01031997_p-77_en.html

The Trappists’ story became a famous movie

nytimes.com/2011/02/25/movies/25gods.html?_r=0

The process is not to canonisation first. The process is to beatification and then canonisation, if the person is deemed truly to have a significance for the Universal Church. The requirement of a miracle is waived for beatification if it is documented the person died as a martyr. Still, it is a process begun at the local level and then referred to the Holy See, which must advance and approve the cause based on their judgment through the Congregation for the Causes of Saints.
 
The technical term is “canonized.” 🙂

Archbishop Oscar Romero was also assassinated during Mass, and I understand he was canonized after a full investigation of his life and miracles.
This is not correct.

Óscar Romero was beatified on May 23, 2015, during a ceremony in San Salvador presided by Angelo Cardinal Amato, who was sent by Pope Francis to do the beatification in his capacity as Prefect of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints.

The Blessed has yet to be canonised.
 
This is not correct.

Óscar Romero was beatified on May 23, 2015, during a ceremony in San Salvador presided by Angelo Cardinal Amato, who was sent by Pope Francis to do the beatification in his capacity as Prefect of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints.

The Blessed has yet to be canonised.
Thanks! I stand corrected.
 
Many Catholic priests have been killed all over the world. Mexico has had dozens killed every year. Syria, Iraq, Yemen, etc… have murdered, tortured and imprisoned priests for several years. The Ukraine is another dangerous place as is India. Pakistan is extremely dangerous for all Catholics, but especially for priests.

Many countries have armed guards outside of their churches during mass (other Christian churches must do this as well).

We aren’t quite to the point of Elizabethan England and hiding priests from the queen’s squads, but that may be in the future for Europe and the US.

It’s getting to the point where mothers may secretly hope their sons join the military instead of being called to the dangerous life of a Catholic priest!
 
Many Catholic priests have been killed all over the world. Mexico has had dozens killed every year. Syria, Iraq, Yemen, etc… have murdered, tortured and imprisoned priests for several years. The Ukraine is another dangerous place as is India. Pakistan is extremely dangerous for all Catholics, but especially for priests.

Many countries have armed guards outside of their churches during mass (other Christian churches must do this as well).

We aren’t quite to the point of Elizabethan England and hiding priests from the queen’s squads, but that may be in the future for Europe and the US.

It’s getting to the point where mothers may secretly hope their sons join the military instead of being called to the dangerous life of a Catholic priest!
Let’s not get mixed up in our own hyperbole.

In Elizabethan England (and 1920s Mexico) the government of the entire country was hostile to the Church. We won’t see that again for many years.

ICXC NIKA
 
Many Catholic priests have been killed all over the world. Mexico has had dozens killed every year. Syria, Iraq, Yemen, etc… have murdered, tortured and imprisoned priests for several years. The Ukraine is another dangerous place as is India. Pakistan is extremely dangerous for all Catholics, but especially for priests.

Many countries have armed guards outside of their churches during mass (other Christian churches must do this as well).

We aren’t quite to the point of Elizabethan England and hiding priests from the queen’s squads, but that may be in the future for Europe and the US.

It’s getting to the point where mothers may secretly hope their sons join the military instead of being called to the dangerous life of a Catholic priest!
Living in deep rural Ireland, mass rocks are never too far away; there is on on the lane where I live. Poignant reminder of Penal Times here

BUT the current threat from Islam is a different matter altogether… And this attack in Europe takes it a new arena
 
Question one. Would it be appropriate for French Catholics, or any Catholic for that matter, to step up efforts to convert Muslims in response to such a tragedy?
Please don’t call it a “tragedy”. It was cold-blooded murder.

A tragedy is when a tidal wave kills thousands of people, or when drought and famine result in thousands of deaths by starvation, or when a person working on a building falls off and dies, etc. Someone taking the life of an innocent person is an evil act, not a tragedy.
 
Question one. Would it be appropriate for French Catholics, or any Catholic for that matter, to step up efforts to convert Muslims in response to such a tragedy?

Question two. Would it be appropriate for the Catholic Church in France to step up efforts to seek candidates for the priesthood in response to this tragedy? There has been a precipitous shortage of priests in France, work has been done in general, but is it appropriate to use this as a call to…not to arms, but to the priesthood?

Question three. How long has it been, exactly, since a member of the Catholic clergy was beheaded, martyred, and then made a saint? Most of the historical examples I’ve been able to find are very ancient, but I know I haven’t found the most comprehensive sources. There are some people who are calling for this recently-murdered French priest to be sainted (a man who survived Nazi occupation and served well past retirement age, only to go out like this during a Mass). How realistic is this? How quickly could it happen, if it does? Under such circumstances, would anyone be looking around to see if two different miracles can be verified that had anything to do with him, or would that part probably be waived? And again, what does the precedent look like for this sort of thing, and what can we expect to see the Church doing with this particular situation?

That was a lot of questions packaged into number three. Any further information would be most appreciated.
I would say, do what we preach. Turn the other cheek. Love them.

If anybody think that Christianity is a piece of cake, he/she should rethink especially after situation such as this.

Go ahead. Justify yourself, why you should not do that.
 
The technical term is “canonized.” 🙂

Archbishop Oscar Romero was also assassinated during Mass, and I understand he was canonized after a full investigation of his life and miracles.
Very good. That was silly of me not to say “canonized,” thanks for pointing that out.

I vaguely recognize that name, he was recognized officially as a martyr and he’s been beatified…his process stalled a bit in the late 90’s, according to what I’m reading here, and the canonization process continues to be ongoing, although many Spanish-speaking people choose to call him “San Romero” and he’s very well respected outside the Catholic Church. And he’s one of the ten 20th-century martyrs depicted above the Great West Door of Westminster Abbey, so…wow, that is quite something.
 
I don’t think this is a reasonable response, frankly, in the face of militants who have been radicalised. Religion is an aspect of the human person that is deeply and intensely held. I can only imagine that a concerted targeted effort to convert Muslims living in France would be as negatively received by individual Muslims as the reaction I would have, as a Catholic priest, if I were working as a chaplain to the Catholic community in a country that was majority Muslim and found myself being proactively targeted in an effort by the society and its citizenry to convert me to Islam. I would consider that behaviour antagonistic. That there should be outreach, by all means.
In fairness, though, I’m talking about stepping up the efforts in the wake of an act of terror clearly done in the name of Islam, which to many reasonable people seems like a pretty good reason to leave Islam- and then of course apostates need protection so they don’t get killed. In your example, if you are a Catholic chaplain to a Catholic community in a Muslim country, we really need a head-severing Christian acting in the name of Christianity by killing imams in order for this to be an apples to apples comparison. And in an apples to apples comparison, I think you’d leave that Muslim-majority country before something much worse than evangelism happens to you.
The decision to seek priesthood is not like volunteering in the military/national service after a national tragedy. Volunteering to serve one’s country can involve a short span of a few years enlistment to a career long decision of 20 years or more…but one continues to have a certain autonomy…to marry and have a family, to plan a life and career after one’s national service.
Becoming a priest is in response to a vocation from God…not a response to a calamity. It involves discernment on the part of the Church and the man who feels called. It involves years of study and preparation in order to then make a life-long commitment…a commitment to forego marriage and children and every other form of career until death. It is, as I say, a radically different commitment from a decision to enlist for a few years of service to one’s country.
This is an article from a couple years back that explores the priest shortage in France, and how 10% of its clergy are brought in from abroad (mostly Africa) for periods of 3, 6, or 9 years. We also see that the average age of a French priest is 72. nytimes.com/2013/04/08/world/europe/foreign-clergy-move-to-france-to-aid-catholics.html?_r=0

One other thing this article postulates is that the Catholic Church in France has struggled to properly define itself to the incoming generation of potential priests. Might I suggest this. Rather than saying this is a crisis, young men come join the priesthood without properly thinking it through, what if this was used to more properly define the role and importance of a priest, and of the Catholic Church in an otherwise really secular country? Could something along those lines be potentially workable? I realize much of this rests on the assumption that the Catholic Church needs to redefine itself to young-ish French people, and that it hasn’t properly defined itself to them. If you could comment on that assumption, that would be most welcome.
We have men and women who are killed for the faith every year. Some of Mother Teresa’s Sisters just were martyred a few months ago.
Among the more famous in recent times were Trappist monks in Algeria. Their story became quite famous. But there were many others in those same years.
The Trappists’ story became a famous movie
Thank you very much for these examples, I appreciate it.
The process is not to canonisation first. The process is to beatification and then canonisation, if the person is deemed truly to have a significance for the Universal Church. The requirement of a miracle is waived for beatification if it is documented the person died as a martyr. Still, it is a process begun at the local level and then referred to the Holy See, which must advance and approve the cause based on their judgment through the Congregation for the Causes of Saints.
Okay, thank you very much for that. I think I can assume that beatification is something that takes a few years under the best of circumstances, and it remains to be seen if he will even be considered for canonization. I’m not exactly sure what his life and work were like in France, but he did just become a martyr so I feel a little uncomfortable with any efforts to personally stand in judgment of his life in any capacity beyond the ordinary sense of grief and loss. Perhaps it’s for the best that questions of beatification and canonization take quite a few years to progress, I’m sure that the people who knew him and loved him are just grieving normally and at this moment they don’t care whether he qualified as a saint or not.
 
/…/ which to many reasonable people seems like a pretty good reason to leave Islam- and then of course apostates need protection so they don’t get killed. In your example, if you are a Catholic chaplain to a Catholic community in a Muslim country, we really need a head-severing Christian acting in the name of Christianity by killing imams in order for this to be an apples to apples comparison. And in an apples to apples comparison, I think you’d leave that Muslim-majority country before something much worse than evangelism happens to you
I am not seeing (nor am I aware of) in Europe a move by Muslims to abandon their faith because of the actions of the radicalised. Certainly, there are those who convert to Christianity. What I am seeing, and which I welcome, is outreach on the part of those who are Muslim to express solidarity with Christians by, for example, being present at Mass this weekend. I welcome this inter-religious expression by which they express that they are Muslims who, while remaining Muslim, express that what happened is something which they utterly reject

In the circumstance you propose, I would assuredly not abandon the mission that obedience had given me – that is a terrible thing to actually suggest to any priest. We don’t go to a place because we choose to go there and we don’t leave because we choose to leave…we go and we leave because competent Church authority commands us to go or leave and we, in complete submission to Church authority, comply without question or resistance

I would, in fact, do as the Muslims have done in Europe this weekend in the instance you cite…find a way to publicly express, as a priest, solidarity with Muslims in the face of a heinous act by a fellow Christian that would be deserving of being utterly rejected…committing an atrocity thoroughly un-Christian. Would that put my life in danger? I wouldn’t be surprised. Fundamentalists of ALL varieties take all manner of regrettable actions
This is an article from a couple years back that explores the priest shortage in France, and how 10% of its clergy are brought in from abroad (mostly Africa) for periods of 3, 6, or 9 years. /…/
One other thing this article postulates is that the Catholic Church in France has struggled to properly define itself to the incoming generation of potential priests. Might I suggest this. Rather than saying this is a crisis, young men come join the priesthood without properly thinking it through, what if this was used to more properly define the role and importance of a priest, and of the Catholic Church in an otherwise really secular country? Could something along those lines be potentially workable? /…/. If you could comment on that assumption, that would be most welcome
There is a particular history between France and its former colonies in Africa. Missionaries of years long and not so long past played a role in implanting the faith there even as they did in French speaking North America. In turn, France, by Providence, has become the beneficiary of a missionary activity that will benefit it. This is from without as well as from within. In Europe, for example, the work of the Bishop of Fréjus-Toulon is well known. As are the renewal movements in France, which we see at Bec, Mont Saint Michel, Saint Gervais et Protais and in many other places

La laicité is a very important value to France, to its society, and its culture. Given the spectre of history, a culture that is secular has its great significance to the French, for just cause

I don’t find a need for the Church to “redefine” itself. The struggle is for contemporary Europeans to see the Church as making a meaningful contribution to daily life beyond a certain level. I think there is need of a religious re-awakening across Europe but for the spiritual well-being of Europeans much more than for a nationalistic purpose. Classically – and with due regard for the Jewish communities that have been part of our lives for more than two millennia – to be in Europe has been to be in a Christian culture. Mine will be the last generation in which that will be largely true, since the role of Christianity in life and society is much more upon the margin
/…/I think I can assume that beatification is something that takes a few years /…/ Perhaps it’s for the best that questions of beatification and canonization take quite a few years to progress, I’m sure that the people who knew him and loved him are just grieving normally and at this moment they don’t care whether he qualified as a saint or not
It is a process that takes years. It involves an initial investigation at the diocesan level. I would hope that the Archbishop of Rouen would begin the process. Abbé Hamel was born in a very challenging moment in European history and came of age in the era of World War II. A priest for almost 60 years who devoted himself with great dedication to his priesthood and then to be killed in odium fidei is a case worthy of examination for proposal to the Congregation for the Causes of Saints. Rouen is well known at the threshold of that Vatican dicastery

I don’t agree with your conclusion. Abbé Hamel was a priest. We’re unique creatures. There is, of course, a human bond that ties us to our presbyterate. We are part of it for decades. The bonds may be profound but they’re not inordinately emotional. I can mourn the passing of a brother priest but I don’t have a profoundly emotional response that is detached from order and right reason as though my grief has overcome me; his archbishop and presbyterate are fully capable of suffering from his loss while dispassionately concluding that there is sufficient reason to ponder initiating an examination to propose a cause for beatification…in the same way Mother Teresa’s Sisters began her cause
 
And he’s one of the ten 20th-century martyrs depicted above the Great West Door of Westminster Abbey, so…wow, that is quite something.
His cult is aided by the politics surrounding his martyrdom which allow many who might otherwise be less interested on religious grounds to champion him for other reasons beyond the purely religious.
 
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