A Few Questions for Apologists about the Eucharist

[ynotzap]

Incidently you can have a “religious experience” that will give you that little touch of the superntural that tells you that Jesus loves you personally. I have witnessed this experience take place in many people. I even led a very sick woman into this experience. She did have Faith but needed to get more involved in her faith as she had four boys going to Catholic School. He husband isn’t Catholic and kept his distance. Some call it a mountain top experience. The coming of Jesus more into their lives, and the release of the Holy Spirit in their lives was experience by many. Be repentant for all wrong doing, be humble and ask like a real son of God. Pray as you can, and expect it from Jesus. Don’t doubt in His goodness and love for you. He wants you more than you want Him. Don’t let anyone or anything discourage you. It’s O.K. to ask. Be open also to His will and to His Spirit.

 

[Faith1960]

Hi Faith,

GREAT question! This touches on speculative Eucharistic theology. One really good short answer is: The Eucharist now is Jesus’ Body, which happens to now be glorified, and, the Eucharist at the Last Supper was Jesus’ Body, which happened to not be glorified. Shorter answer: the apostles received the non-glorified Body of Christ at the Last Supper.

Like I said, this is speculative, but a really good answer. It is a good answer because it is the answer that St. Thomas Aquinas gives and a number of other theologians echo. I’d say that it may very well be the common teaching, or, at the very least, is consistent with Church teaching on the topic. I would personally go further and say that, to me, it represents a very real view of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and in fact safeguards that reality.

What do you think?
VC

Not sure what I think. I need to read and ponder it some more. Jesus’ glorified body could walk through walls and other things that makes His glorified body in the Eucharist easier for me to understand. His unglorified body at the Last Supper is harder for me to grasp. And before anyone wants to argue with me, yes, I know Jesus was capable of and did miracles before He was glorified.

 

[Davros]

The life Jesus refers to, although spiritual, is physical life.

Thank you for your reply.
If Jesus meant physical life, now I’m even more confused, as Eucharist doesn’t seem to improve our physical existence. It must mean a spiritual kind of life, would it not?

The life is that of God: the Greatest Being, True Unconditional Love, the Holy Trinity, the Creator of Everything, the Almighty, and is manifested in a person by opening his/her feelings, rembrance of person, thoughts, and will to the Divine Life, and allowing them to grow freely to perfect union with God.

This is the other point of confusion I have, as having received this Divine Life, a person doesn’t become significantly holier. But you would think that on receiving the entirety of the Divine Person, one would become spectacularly more holy, in keeping with the miraculous nature of the consecration itself.

I understand spiritually dead to be spiritually asleep, or having no interest to grow to perfect union with Unconditional Love: The Holy Trinity.

It seems unfair to those poor Manna-munching Israelites out in the desert, who never had the Eucharist, that they should be judged to be spiritually dead or asleep. At least some of them were holy, ie. Moses?

The Eucharist opens the feelings, spirit, thoughts, and will of a person to know God’s Love, become God’s Love, and share God’s Love with others.

It might, but from what I’ve seen and felt myself, the beneficial effect is imperceptible.

Some believe and some don’t. Some don’t believe because it doesn’t make sense to them, and others don’t believe because they know Jesus is Really Present. For example, I don’t believe my family exists because I know they exist.

I also used to “know” this, but it’s only lately, in my 50’s, that I’ve dared to question my beliefs. Before, I felt that I would miss out on some benefit if I put my faith under the microscope, that I would not be one of the “happy” ones who believe without seeing. Well, if Jesus rewarded Thomas’ doubt with a hands-on demonstration, I wouldn’t mind trading my “happiness” for some certainty.

 

[Davros]

Incidently you can have a “religious experience” that will give you that little touch of the superntural that tells you that Jesus loves you personally.

Thank you for that. I don’t doubt people have religious experiences, and that there is more “out there” than we normally perceive. The late Dr. John Mack, Harvard phychiatrist, was very open to the idea of a higher spiritual reality. He said that we, in the West, have tended to suppress this part of our existence.
I have always wondered why some people, in Biblical times and more recently, have been treated to spectacular manifestations of the spiritual realm, while the rest of us blunder on without even being sure that it is all real. It comes down to the old question, “Why does God hide from us?”

Peace and blessings.

 

[Memaw]

Not sure what I think. I need to read and ponder it some more. Jesus’ glorified body could walk through walls and other things that makes His glorified body in the Eucharist easier for me to understand. His unglorified body at the Last Supper is harder for me to grasp. And before anyone wants to argue with me, yes, I know Jesus was capable of and did miracles before He was glorified.

To believe everything Jesus said and did is called FAITH. We are not able to truly understand the Mysteries of God. But we trust HIM and believe them anyway even when we don’t have emotional feelings about them. While feelings are nice at times, they can also be misleading. That’s where our will comes in and we simply TRUST God to lead us on. Mother Teresa is a great example of that. We know that everything Jesus said or did was TRUE even if we don’t understand it. We can trust Him and go on Faith. Jesus is GOD, before and after HIS death and Resurrection. Nothing is impossible with God. I love to meditate on the Mysteries of God. Even the Mystery of our own memory is awesome. Only God could create something like that and it is not physical. God Bless, Memaw

 

[ynotzap]

Dear brother Davros

Why does God hid from us?

   To see how much we really love Him, take Him at His word, to see how much we really trust, believe, and love Him.

He really doesn’t hide from us. He appeared over 2000 yrs. ago and is always with us, although we are not always with Him. He is Omnipresent. We are being tested. He stated : more blessed are those who have not seen, but believe. As we are faithful without seeing we are growing holier. A strange thing about growing holier those that are growing, if they grow enough they do experience supernatural experiences, and deeper experiences not physical but spiritual which surpass all supernatural experiences of the senses. They experience the infusion of grace into their souls. St. Paul speaks of things that can’t be told. They experience God directly, and their natural faculties are suspended, and approach a point where their souls would leave their bodies to be united to God. Their mortal lives have to be sustained by God or they would die a physical death. They call it “Ecstacy” the beginning of Heaven, in love with God, and God with them.

 

[opusAquinas]

Greetings,

My name is David, I am 19 years old from Conowingo, MD. I’ve been a lurker for quite some time and thought I’d take the plunge to ask some questions on the forums!

I am a former Protestant and probably harbor quite a few misconceptions about Catholicism. I am now B’nai Noach (Judaism) and am looking into Catholicism for research purposes.

A few of these questions are from CARM and I have not yet found answers to these questions.

1. When Jesus instituted the supper, he had not yet been crucified. How then was the Eucharist is crucified body and blood?
2. If, as the Roman Catholic Church teaches, that the Eucharist Wine is the literal blood of Christ, then how is that not violating the Old Testament law against drinking the blood of any flesh (Lev. 17:14)?

Thank you,

David
Conowingo, Maryland

LOTS of Jews believe Jesus is Lord. You just have to ask them. They may deny Christ in front of you publicly but then they will go to another Jew who believes Jesus is Lord to ask them “Do you believe Jesus is Lord?” and then they feel safe to answer “Yes.” This is because our Lord said if you deny Him, He will deny you to the Father.

In another words, if you publicly deny Jesus is the Lord and you were to die - Our Lord would condemn you to hell as He said He would. Jews who are Christians know this and follow the rules like they were kosher.

Why do Jews who believe in our Lord - hide? Because, for one, they love the identity of being the Chosen People.

By the way, since you were once a Christian, and now deny our Lord, were you to die you would be condemned to eternal punishment.

 

[Davros]

Thanks, ynotzap. I know this is getting a bit off track. Someone said that Youth is wasted on the Young. It seems to me that miracles are wasted on the Saints, who already have a strong enough faith. Isn’t the whole purpose of miracles to help us to believe? That’s the reason Jesus gave for some of his miracles, eg, the raising of Lazarus. Jesus obviously recognized that people needed some tangible reason to believe in something, and that’s why he performed his various signs. Fast-forward 2000 years to our time; how can we be expected to believe in something which happened so long ago, for which we have no visible proof, only the testimony of others? Now, people’s testimony certainly can have great value, however, people are also notoriously unreliable. The great diversity of religions throughout the world is proof that people make all sorts of claims, and others believe them.

Peace and blessings.

 

[Memaw]

Thanks, ynotzap. I know this is getting a bit off track. Someone said that Youth is wasted on the Young. It seems to me that miracles are wasted on the Saints, who already have a strong enough faith. Isn’t the whole purpose of miracles to help us to believe? That’s the reason Jesus gave for some of his miracles, eg, the raising of Lazarus. Jesus obviously recognized that people needed some tangible reason to believe in something, and that’s why he performed his various signs. Fast-forward 2000 years to our time; how can we be expected to believe in something which happened so long ago, for which we have no visible proof, only the testimony of others? Now, people’s testimony certainly can have great value, however, people are also notoriously unreliable. The great diversity of religions throughout the world is proof that people make all sorts of claims, and others believe them.

Peace and blessings.

Miracles are not wasted on the Saints, they are granted through the prayers of the Saints for us. To strengthen our Faith. Fast-forward 2,000 years to our time. are you sure there ever was such a thing as History. the reign of the dinosaurs, the discovery of America, were you there?? Can we take the word of others who were there or who studied those times. The great diversity of religions throughout the world is proof we need to truly follow Jesus Christ and HIS Church. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Topaz1128]

I believe Dr Scott Hahn explains it really well here - “The Eucharist: Sacrifice and Banquet” Dr. Scott Hahn (12min youtube video)

 

[Davros]

Thanks Memaw, you raised some interesting points. Sorry, I’m going even further off-thread now.

Miracles are not wasted on the Saints, they are granted through the prayers of the Saints for us. To strengthen our Faith.

By miracles, sorry, I really meant the ecstatic experiences of the saints that ynotzap referred to in his last posting. These are private experiences, felt only by the saint, and so are of little edification to the rest of us. Unfortunately, unless a miracle is experienced first-hand, or at least, really well domumented, we are reduced again to putting our faith in human testimony. I can’t think of any modern miracle that fits that standard, even Fatima has some question marks, but that’s another thread!

Fast-forward 2,000 years to our time. are you sure there ever was such a thing as History. the reign of the dinosaurs, the discovery of America, were you there?? Can we take the word of others who were there or who studied those times.

Don’t get me started on the discovery of the Americas!

The great diversity of religions throughout the world is proof we need to truly follow Jesus Christ and HIS Church.

That is very true in one sense. However, the other religions are a reality, and the question is how, and why. How did they get started - by blatant lies on the part of their respective leaders? by some sort of demonic deception? and Why did the One True God allow so many of his children to be misled?

 

[jochoa]

If Jesus meant physical life, now I’m even more confused, as Eucharist doesn’t seem to improve our physical existence. It must mean a spiritual kind of life, would it not?

But you would think that on receiving the entirety of the Divine Person, one would become spectacularly more holy, in keeping with the miraculous nature of the consecration itself.

It seems unfair to those poor Manna-munching Israelites out in the desert, who never had the Eucharist, that they should be judged to be spiritually dead or asleep. At least some of them were holy, ie. Moses?

It might, but from what I’ve seen and felt myself, the beneficial effect is imperceptible.

Well, if Jesus rewarded Thomas’ doubt with a hands-on demonstration, I wouldn’t mind trading my “happiness” for some certainty.

Thank you for sharing further thoughts! Currently, you can justify people without God as holy, which within Loving God is a good thing, yet you are struggling to justify people with God as holy. To help yourself overcome this struggle, as well as find certainty with Jesus, especially in the Eucharist, please considering sharing “What or Who is God to you, in many different ways.” For example:
What or Who is God to me?

• God is Love
• God is the person who is always Loving.
• God is the Creator of Everything.
• God is All-Powerful.
• God is the Greatest Being.
• God is the Best.
• God is the Holy Trinity.
• God is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
• God is the Holy Trinity and His Church.
• God is Jesus.
• God is always freely being patient and kind for the Greatest Being with all feelings, remembrance of person, thoughts, and will equally towards others and the self.
• God is always patient and kind, even in the face of unjust cruelty, to the point of death, for the experience of unbreakable peace and unending joy for all.

Thanks for further discussion, and I look forward to more!

 

[ynotzap]

To be converted to Christianity one has to experience and encounter with Jesus. It’s not that we choose Christ but Christ chooses us. We are called “the elect” All of the saints had an encounter with Jesus. A turning from sin and turning to Jesus is a grace of conversion. Before that happens one has to have a reason for such turning. Something had to touch the heart and mind of that person to do such a thing. We call that an encounter. St. Augustine heard a child say “take up and read” and St.Augustine turned to scripture and read about Christ dying for the salvation of men (to the best of my recollection) this converted him. Of course his mother prayed for him 28-32 years. He was responsible for bringing many to Christ. Many are baptized but many are not converted because they have not had that encounter. Their lives prove they weren’t converted. If one truly seeks to be converted, and turns to Christ in humility and asks for this encounter, he will receive it. What did Christ die for, for the salvation of men.