A few questions

[ematouk]

Hi, I’m an Orthodox Christian and would like to ask a few questions:

1. Are all Traditionalist Catholics Sedevacantists?
2. How do Traditionalist Catholics see the “fruits of Vatican 2” such as the neo-catechumen movement and the womanpriest movement etc…?
3. If the current Novus Ordo Catholic church is heretical, then why not join the Orthodox Church?
4. Why do yo think the Novus Ordo mass brought into the Catholic Church? What is wrong with the Tridentine mass?

 

[PrayforMallory]

Hi, I’m an Orthodox Christian and would like to ask a few questions:

1. Are all Traditionalist Catholics Sedevacantists?
2. How do Traditionalist Catholics see the “fruits of Vatican 2” such as the neo-catechumen movement and the womanpriest movement etc…?
3. If the current Novus Ordo Catholic church is heretical, then why not join the Orthodox Church?
4. Why do yo think the Novus Ordo mass brought into the Catholic Church? What is wrong with the Tridentine mass?

I’d like to answer your questions, though my answers may not be indicative of the general opinions of traditionalist Catholics on this forum.

1. A minority are sedevacantists. I’m not. I’ve heard the arguments, and I disagree with all of them. I also admire the current Pope probably more than any public figure.
2. I regard both of those as silly aberrations that have no future. Some may see it differently.
3. In my opinion, the current Novus Ordo Church, the official Church, isn’t heretical at all. A good chunk of the American Church is, but those types of situations have emerged before, and have died out before.
4. From what I’ve read, which isn’t much, it seems like the fathers at the time had good reason to believe that the Novus Ordo would trigger a renewal. They seem to have had the impression that ecumenism and the Novus Ordo would create a situation in which Protestants could more easily be reunited with us. Unfortunately, after Vatican II the Protestants became Gnostics and many of us became Protestantized. However, the Pauline Missal has born fruit in Africa and Asia, where its simplicity and adaptability has allowed for inculturation and growth. In my opinion, with the restored Tridentine Mass as the “gold standard,” these cultures will develop their own unique rites that express the same theology as the Tridentine Mass in uniquely culturally-appropriate ways. New types of chant based on traditional African music, art styles based on Asian models, etc., can grow with the Novus Ordo, unlike the Tridentine Mass, which is distinctly Western. In the West, however, the Novus Ordo has either created or encouraged a tendency for the Western Churches to devolve into Protestantism. Just my thoughts.

Now, as to why I’m not Orthodox. I’ve considered Orthodoxy before, and I have nothing but esteem for the Orthodox. However, looking at history, we see that the Orthodox can struggle with these same issues, such as during the Iconoclastic controvery (which was very similar in its practical effects to the removal of rails, statues, paintings, Latin, Chant, etc.). I believe that the Latin Church, just like the Eastern Churches, will bounce back and reassert itself. I also believe there is good reason to hope that Orthodox and Catholics will be reunited, once tradition is restored to the Latin Church.

Just my opinions. Peace.

 

[PrayforMallory]

I’d like to answer your questions, though my answers may not be indicative of the general opinions of traditionalist Catholics on this forum.

1. A minority are sedevacantists. I’m not. I’ve heard the arguments, and I disagree with all of them. I also admire the current Pope probably more than any public figure.
2. I regard both of those as silly aberrations that have no future. Some may see it differently.
3. In my opinion, the current Novus Ordo Church, the official Church, isn’t heretical at all. A good chunk of the American Church is, but those types of situations have emerged before, and have died out before.
4. From what I’ve read, which isn’t much, it seems like the fathers at the time had good reason to believe that the Novus Ordo would trigger a renewal. They seem to have had the impression that ecumenism and the Novus Ordo would create a situation in which Protestants could more easily be reunited with us. Unfortunately, after Vatican II the Protestants became Gnostics and many of us became Protestantized. However, the Pauline Missal has born fruit in Africa and Asia, where its simplicity and adaptability has allowed for inculturation and growth. In my opinion, with the restored Tridentine Mass as the “gold standard,” these cultures will develop their own unique rites that express the same theology as the Tridentine Mass in uniquely culturally-appropriate ways. New types of chant based on traditional African music, art styles based on Asian models, etc., can grow with the Novus Ordo, unlike the Tridentine Mass, which is distinctly Western. In the West, however, the Novus Ordo has either created or encouraged a tendency for the Western Churches to devolve into Protestantism. Just my thoughts.

Now, as to why I’m not Orthodox. I’ve considered Orthodoxy before, and I have nothing but esteem for the Orthodox. However, looking at history, we see that the Orthodox can struggle with these same issues, such as during the Iconoclastic controvery (which was very similar in its practical effects to the removal of rails, statues, paintings, Latin, Chant, etc.). I believe that the Latin Church, just like the Eastern Churches, will bounce back and reassert itself. I also believe there is good reason to hope that Orthodox and Catholics will be reunited, once tradition is restored to the Latin Church.

Just my opinions. Peace.

The above is just my own musing. I don’t have any authority to speak, so maybe there are others that might be more informed.

 

[belgianwaffles9]

Hi, I’m an Orthodox Christian and would like to ask a few questions:

1. Are all Traditionalist Catholics Sedevacantists?

No; a very small minority of them are. After all, being out of communion with the Bishop of Rome is not a very traditionally Catholic way of doing things

1. How do Traditionalist Catholics see the “fruits of Vatican 2” such as the neo-catechumen movement and the womanpriest movement etc…?

Most of them, including myself, see them as harmful to the Church, because they remove it from the Traditions which it has safeguarded, and which have safeguarded it in return. Groups like that will die out along with eir main proponents, the baby-boomers of the sixties. As for the “fruits” or the “spirit of Vatican II,” traditional Catholics understand that Vatican II was NOT meant to kick off a “new Catholicism” or change the way we do things. It was meant to be considered through the lense of tradition and the other councils. When read this way, it is not very “radical” at all. However, many of Vatican II’s documents were very vague, and too open to radical interpretations by the dissident progressives who came later.

1. If the current Novus Ordo Catholic church is heretical, then why not join the Orthodox Church?

There isn’t a “Novus Ordo Church.” There is a Catholic Church. It still uses the Tridentine Mass, which was never abrogated or outlawed. As i said above, when Vatican II is interpreted in the light of Catholic tradition, it is not so raidcal. It is only when it is purposefully misinterpreted and used by dissident progressives that we see problems.

And why not join the Orthodox Church? Many reasons. One one level, it would be hard to sacrifice our love for the Latin Rite, even though the large majority of traditionalists hold the eastern rites in high esteem. Traditional Catholics also disgaree as to the state of the Orthodox Church’s orthodoxy; some still believe all orthodox will go to hell. Others, like me, hope that such is not the case at all. Personally, i do not believe most Orthodox faithful are guilty of heresy. However, the Orthodox Church is without a doubt, from the Latin perspective, guilty of schism. And true, traditional Catholics couldnt stomach schism or seperation from the Holy Father.

1. Why do yo think the Novus Ordo mass brought into the Catholic Church? What is wrong with the Tridentine mass?

Vatican II simply recommended a few potential changes. It was after the council itself that Bugnini and his followers (notably former Papal MC Archbishop Marini) wrote the new mass from scratch. I believe, as the above poster said, that it was adopted because people thought it would lead to conversions back from Catholicism, and would engage the youth. This was during the baby boom, when there were more youth running around than ever before in history. And that changed everything. On some level, Vatican II is a reflection of how ALL of western civilization was changed in the aftermath of the World Wars, the massive population boom afterwards, and the cultural change it brought on.

The eastern world did not have to deal with this to such an extent as the Western world.

 

[JuanCarlos]

Hi, I’m an Orthodox Christian and would like to ask a few questions:

1. Are all Traditionalist Catholics Sedevacantists?
2. How do Traditionalist Catholics see the “fruits of Vatican 2” such as the neo-catechumen movement and the womanpriest movement etc…?
3. If the current Novus Ordo Catholic church is heretical, then why not join the Orthodox Church?
4. Why do yo think the Novus Ordo mass brought into the Catholic Church? What is wrong with the Tridentine mass?

1. No, but a sad majority act like there is no Pope
2. They aren’t Catholic, any more than Latinizations in the Divine Liturgy are Orthodox.
3. It is not heretical; “confused” might be a better word. If the Pope pronounced or authorized something truly heretical I would either go East or Sede. But it is my firm belief the Holy Ghost guides the Catholic Church.
4. The Novus Ordo Mass encourages lay participation, which is a wonderful thing, but it came at the wrong time. Had Pius XII allowed a vernacular Mass in the 40’s or early 50’s we might have avoided the post VII chaos; but it came right in the middle of the 60’s.

And for your second question there is no flaws as far as I’m concerned with any liturgical rites of the Catholic Church, new or old eats or west, as long as the rubrics are strictly followed.

 

[NeedImprovement]

The above is just my own musing. I don’t have any authority to speak, so maybe there are others that might be more informed.

Actually, I felt more informed once I read your post…nice one

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Hi, I’m an Orthodox Christian and would like to ask a few questions:

1. Are all Traditionalist Catholics Sedevacantists?

I’m still wet from my Tiber swim. This is the first time I ever heard that term, and I had to look it up.

I think it’s just plain silly.

 

[Tommy_Joe]

1. Are all Traditionalist Catholics Sedevacantists?

A simple “No”.
Fortunately there aren’t many of them around.
Another question would be; "Are sedevacantists really members of the Catholic Church?

1. How do Traditionalist Catholics see the “fruits of Vatican 2” such as the neo-catechumen movement and the womanpriest movement etc…?

The term “fruits of Vatican 2” explains it all.
Wymynpriests are a joke,…they are excommunicated and no longer Catholic.

1. If the current Novus Ordo Catholic church is heretical, then why not join the Orthodox Church?

There is no such thing as the Novus Ordo Catholic Church.

I’m not joining the ranks of the Orthodox Church because I’m one member of the Roman Catholic Church who has daily access to the Extraordinary Rite of the Mass.

1. Why do yo think the Novus Ordo mass brought into the Catholic Church? What is wrong with the Tridentine mass?

The Novus Ordo Mass was adopted into the Church for what some people thought was a good idea. I think they were wrong.
To quote my dearly departed daddy,…Son, if it ain’t broke,…why on earth would you try to fix it?"
“What’s wrong with the Tridentine Mass?” Nothing.

 

[ematouk]

Thankyou for all your very informative posts. As an Orthodox, I honestly value the Traditionalist Catholics far more then the Liberal Catholics I have encountered

But sorry to ask 2 more questions:

1. are the traditionalist Catholics a significant portion of the Catholic Church?
2. Do you feel that a Vatican 3 would help solve the issues caused by Vatican 2?

God bless and thankyou for your very informative posts.

 

[Tommy_Joe]

1. are the traditionalist Catholics a significant portion of the Catholic Church?

All answers to that question will be dependant on that person’s definition of the term “traditionalist Catholics”.
If a person were looking for a “Traditional Parish” in the Oklahoma City area for instance, there are 38 Catholic Churches, only one of which is a “Traditional Community”. So as you can imagine, those of us who call ourselves “traditionalists” are but a very tiny almost insignificant minority,…and I might add; a not very well accepted or respected minority. I’ve been told by several of my Catholic friends outside our Traditional Community that we are considered little more than a small group of “outcasts”.

1. Do you feel that a Vatican 3 would help solve the issues caused by Vatican 2?

If you ask me, the only thing that can save us from the abuses and heresies we see in the Church today…is an iron fisted “traditional” Pope.

 

[Dauphin]

Thankyou for all your very informative posts. As an Orthodox, I honestly value the Traditionalist Catholics far more then the Liberal Catholics I have encountered

But sorry to ask 2 more questions:

1. are the traditionalist Catholics a significant portion of the Catholic Church?

If you mean Catholics attending the Traditional Latin Mass, no, we’re a very small minority - probably less than 1% of Catholics worldwide.

If you mean the more traditional “style” and theology, which rejects nothing that past Catholics held as sacred, then that number increases significantly. The man in my signature is one of them.

 

[JuanCarlos]

Thankyou for all your very informative posts. As an Orthodox, I honestly value the Traditionalist Catholics far more then the Liberal Catholics I have encountered

But sorry to ask 2 more questions:

1. are the traditionalist Catholics a significant portion of the Catholic Church?
2. Do you feel that a Vatican 3 would help solve the issues caused by Vatican 2?

God bless and thankyou for your very informative posts.

1. Not really; I’d compare it to an Eastern Rite in size.
2. NO! Maybe a Trent II though.

 

[bpbasilphx]

**

1. Are all Traditionalist Catholics Sedevacantists?**

Sedevacantism is NOT traditional, ergo sedevacantists cannot be called traditionalist Catholics.

2) How do Traditionalist Catholics see the “fruits of Vatican 2” such as the neo-catechumen movement and the womanpriest movement etc…?

**These are NOT the “fruits of Vatican 2”. These go on DESPITE the clear teaching of Vatican 2 and later papal decrees.

The Neocatechetical Movement (to give it’s proper English name, if this is to which you are referring) has already received instructions about its liturgical praxis.**