a few questions

  • Thread starter Thread starter the_amazin_man
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

the_amazin_man

Guest
hello there, I was just wondering exactly why god would have sent his son to knowingly have him killed? An all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful god could and would have simply forgiven us for what our ancestors unknowingly did, exactly why did he have his son tortured, persecuted and murdered in order to forgive us?

also why did god even create everything on earth for the first time (before Noah’s flood) knowing that he was just going to angrily punish and destroy all the life he just created?

also, in the old and new testament, god often becomes angry (often resulting in mass genocide, but we wont get into that) and anger would constitute surprise which would contradict an omniscient god?

just some thoughts, thanks for your time.
 
hello there, I was just wondering exactly why god would have sent his son to knowingly have him killed?
Well you forgot one more thing. God, the Father also resurrected his Son. Jesus’ death was necessary so he can destroy our sins. By his resurrection, Jesus restored our life by granting us eternal life (provided we that we love him first, and by obeying all that he has commanded us).

God desires all men to seek him, know him, and love him.
An all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful god could and would have simply forgiven us for what our ancestors unknowingly did, exactly why did he have his son tortured, persecuted and murdered in order to forgive us?
To destroy our death. Sin came into the world when Adam and Eve broke God’s commandment by eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Hence death came into the world. The New Adam, Jesus open heaven for us all through his death and resurrection.
also why did god even create everything on earth for the first time (before Noah’s flood) knowing that he was just going to angrily punish and destroy all the life he just created?
God created all us out of love. God spoke and the World came into being. Jesus Christ, the Word of God, all things were created by Him and Through Him.

God flooded the earth because Mankind sinned gravely and forgot their creator with the exception of Noah and his family.
also, in the old and new testament, god often becomes angry (often resulting in mass genocide, but we wont get into that) and anger would constitute surprise which would contradict an omniscient god?
God created us out of goodness. We have a free will to do right and wrong. Free will is a gift and like any gift, we can abuse it. Mankind throughout his history has abused it. Through war, killing and so forth.

God is the Father of all Creation. If his creations abuse their rights, the father would get angry. How often do you have a son who has a fight with his sister go unpunished? A father will take action and place a judgement upon his son either by suspend him from going to the movies.

Likewise, God, Our Father will do the same. He will reward the rightenous and punished the guilty unless they repent. God’s mercy is always there. He maybe an angry God but he is also a merciful God. Take a look at Lot’s inteceding in behalf of Sodom and Gommorah. Of course, neither city had any innocent people so the guilty were punished.
just some thoughts, thanks for your time.
 
The Old Testament called for blood sacrifice in atonement. God sent his Son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins and to do away with blood sacrifice. Christ shed His blood for us. He could easily have refused to die such a terrible death but He did it out of love for us. After His death He was resurrected and shows us that we also can live for eternity with God in Heaven.
God created all things but He did not create them to be destroyed. Since He gave us free will, we have often used our free will in a destructive manner. We are sinful by nature but God is good and will forgive and forget if we are truly repent.
 
As for the first question, about Jesus’ death… Yes, God could have saved us in any number of ways. It is in his power to forgive our sins simply by willing it. But precisely because he is all-knowing and all-loving, he knew that the greatest good would be wrought by sending his only Son, in an act of purest love, to die on the cross for our sins.

God’s providence is somewhat mysterious, for we see things chronologically while God sees things, even time itself, as an object. While God’s anger might be seen as a “surprise” to us, for God, it is merely the response he willed at that point in time. Surprised is never an adjective one could use to describe God.

Your second question, about everything before Noah, is difficult, because as I see you, you also have to consider the problem of evil. After Adam and Eve’s sin, why did God allow the human race to continue? It’s all in God’s Providence that things have worked out the way they have.
 
Hello, and welcome to the forum. As the title says you have several questions, for a better understanding, ask one question per thread. Open as many threads as you like, but asking several questions will often have some of your concerns either missed or lost in the rest. This works both for asking and answering, it’ easier to understand a single point than to try to answer four or five at one time.
hello there, I was just wondering exactly why god would have sent his son to knowingly have him killed? An all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful god could and would have simply forgiven us for what our ancestors unknowingly did, exactly why did he have his son tortured, persecuted and murdered in order to forgive us?
This goes directly to the relationship of you and I to God. God created you and I “His” way. The single most important trait (to me) He could possibly give us is our free will. He wants us to love Him freely, not because He makes us, but because we choose to. In order for us to freely choose, God allows us to make mistakes. Why did He make us this way? Because He loves us,. He didn’t want us to be robots. As Manny points out well, God also resurrected His Son. One of the teachings I derive from that, and the teachings of Jesus, is that this life is not what is important, heaven is what’s important. His Son was tortured and killed, but that isn’t the end! He was also resurrected, which, in Him, we will also, so if our earthly lives are full of sorrow, we can look into the face of God and know there is something greater, there is heaven. There are books written on this, a good question certainly, but, a little in depth for the forum.
 
why did god even create everything on earth for the first time (before Noah’s flood) knowing that he was just going to angrily punish and destroy all the life he just created?
Again Noah chose to follow God, the rest did not. Our free will at work. Thank God He made us with free will. What would life be like if we couldn’t choose to love or hate?
 
in the old and new testament, god often becomes angry (often resulting in mass genocide, but we wont get into that) and anger would constitute surprise which would contradict an omniscient god?
Excellent point, remember who the Old Testament was written for. It was written for you and I, not God, He already knows. He is teaching us, not the other way around. He uses our human emotions and reasoning to teach us. Anger and surprise are indeed human traits, not traits of God. Imagine your confusion if He said, yeah, I knew you were going to do that. Then indeed we’d be confused.
 
just some thoughts, thanks for your time.
And great thoughts, please stick around to discuss them. An excellent guide to understanding the will and plan of God is the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC). It is truly a beautiful book. There’s an online copy at: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
I recommend you get a printed copy, you can find it at any good bookstore.
 
Hello,
hello there, I was just wondering exactly why god would have sent his son to knowingly have him killed? An all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful god could and would have simply forgiven us for what our ancestors unknowingly did, exactly why did he have his son tortured, persecuted and murdered in order to forgive us?
This question of why someone had to die, and why that someone had to be Jesus Christ, among other questions, is dealt with very well in the work On the Incarnation of the Word by Saint Athanasius. I will quote a bit of that work, but I highly suggest you read the whole thing.

For this cause, then, death having gained upon men, and corruption abiding upon them, the race of man was perishing; the rational man made in God’s image was disappearing, and the handiwork of God was in process of dissolution. For death, as I said above, gained from that time forth a legal Genesis 2:15 hold over us, and it was impossible to evade the law, since it had been laid down by God because of the transgression, and the result was in truth at once monstrous and unseemly. For it were monstrous, firstly, that God, having spoken, should prove false—that, when once He had ordained that man, if he transgressed the commandment, should die the death, after the transgression man should not die, but God’s word should be broken. For God would not be true, if, when He had said we should die, man died not. Again, it were unseemly that creatures once made rational, and having partaken of the Word, should go to ruin, and turn again toward non-existence by the way of corruption. For it were not worthy of God’s goodness that the things He had made should waste away, because of the deceit practised on men by the devil. Especially it was unseemly to the last degree that God’s handicraft among men should be done away, either because of their own carelessness, or because of the deceitfulness of evil spirits.

So, as the rational creatures were wasting and such works in course of ruin, what was God in His goodness to do? Suffer corruption to prevail against them and death to hold them fast? And where were the profit of their having been made, to begin with? For better were they not made, than once made, left to neglect and ruin. For neglect reveals weakness, and not goodness on God’s part—if, that is, He allows His own work to be ruined when once He had made it—more so than if He had never made man at all. For if He had not made them, none could impute weakness; but once He had made them, and created them out of nothing, it were most monstrous for the work to be ruined, and that before the eyes of the Maker. It was, then, out of the question to leave men to the current of corruption; because this would be unseemly, and unworthy of God’s goodness.

But just as this consequence must needs hold, so, too, on the other side the just claims of God lie against it: that God should appear true to the law He had laid down concerning death. For it were monstrous for God, the Father of truth, to appear a liar for our profit and preservation. So here, once more, what possible course was God to take? To demand repentance of men for their transgression? For this one might pronounce worthy of God; as though, just as from transgression men have become set towards corruption, so from repentance they may once more be set in the way of incorruption. But repentance would, firstly, fail to guard the just claim of God. For He would still be none the more true, if men did not remain in the grasp of death; nor, secondly, does repentance call men back from what is their nature—it merely stays them from acts of sin. Now, if there were merely a misdemeanour in question, and not a consequent corruption, repentance were well enough. But if, when transgression had once gained a start, men became involved in that corruption which was their nature, and were deprived of the grace which they had, being in the image of God, what further step was needed? or what was required for such grace and such recall, but the Word of God, which had also at the beginning made everything out of nought? For His it was once more both to bring the corruptible to incorruption, and to maintain intact the just claim of the Father upon all. For being Word of the Father, and above all, He alone of natural fitness was both able to recreate everything, and worthy to suffer on behalf of all and to be ambassador for all with the Father. (On the Incarnation of the Word, Saint Athanasius, 6-7)
 
I have a burning question that I would also like to add to this and I apologize for asking too many questions to begin with, I would also like to add that I am an atheist so that the mods can tell me where I can and cannot go since I know Christian forums like to restrict atheist from poisoning the mind of their members lol. oh yes, the question, does the catholic church still support the young earth theory (by which I mean it is 6000 years old instead of 4.6 billion) despite being scientifically dis proven? I know that the catholic church has thrown out other beliefs that have been dis proven (a geocentric universe, the sun rotating around the earth and the world being flat) so I was wondering if the same was true for the young earth theory

also, to all the answers of my first questions I know what the bible says about why Jesus died, I think I read one that sort of answered my question but raised another.
he knew that the greatest good would be wrought by sending his only Son, in an act of purest love, to die on the cross for our sins.
well…okay, but that doesn’t really coincide with the all-loving side of god. what you are saying is that god knows best and that anything he does is handled in the best way possible. with all due respect I think that is an easy out to this question.
Again Noah chose to follow God, the rest did not. Our free will at work. Thank God He made us with free will. What would life be like if we couldn’t choose to love or hate?
yes, i know how the reasons about WHY god did what he did though they seem heartless and brutal to me, but I was more getting at why he even bothered. The catholic Church doesn’t condone stem cell research, more specifically embryo farming, because it opposes creating life to destroy it. Is that not what god did to all post-Noah life created? I know that we have free will and all that so there is no need for quoting more bible scripture on that issue, but god knew the choices we would make which would lead him to destroy all living creatures on the planet. therefore, he creating life knowing that that he was just going to destroy it, the same as embryo farming and stem cell research.

I’m sorry for those posts I didn’t reply to but I am crunched for time right now, I did read them all though.
 
well…okay, but that doesn’t really coincide with the all-loving side of god. what you are saying is that god knows best and that anything he does is handled in the best way possible. with all due respect I think that is an easy out to this question.
I don’t fully understand your point. God does know best and, because of his love for us, he will do whatever he knows is best for us.

As Thomas Aquinas has proclaimed in the Third Part of the Summa Theologica, the Incarnation was both in accordance with God’s Wisdom and Love, and also in accordance with our need as fallen creatures in need of a savior, healer, and teacher.

We can contemplate, because we can be assured of God’s wisdom and love, the Incarnation itself, meditation both on how fallen we must have been for God to send his only Son, and also how loving God is to do precisely that.
 
I have a burning question that I would also like to add to this and I apologize for asking too many questions to begin with, I would also like to add that I am an atheist so that the mods can tell me where I can and cannot go since I know Christian forums like to restrict atheist from poisoning the mind of their members lol. oh yes, the question, does the catholic church still support the young earth theory (by which I mean it is 6000 years old instead of 4.6 billion) despite being scientifically dis proven?

The Catholic church doesn’t claim infallibilty in scientific matters. And what do you mean by support? Some Catholic scientists supported it, some didn’t. It was a matter of personal prefference not a dogmatic declaration.
I know that the catholic church has thrown out other beliefs that have been dis proven (a geocentric universe, the sun rotating around the earth and the world being flat) so I was wondering if the same was true for the young earth theory
 
I have a burning question that I would also like to add to this and I apologize for asking too many questions to begin with, I would also like to add that I am an atheist so that the mods can tell me where I can and cannot go since I know Christian forums like to restrict atheist from poisoning the mind of their members lol. oh yes, the question,
I think you’ll find the moderators very understanding here. As long as you don’t insult, and ask meaningful questions, and listen to the responses, you should have no problem. Actually they tend to over compensate for the truly restrictive sites.
 
I have a burning question that I would also like to add to this and I apologize for asking too many questions to begin with, I would also like to add that I am an atheist so that the mods can tell me where I can and cannot go since I know Christian forums like to restrict atheist from poisoning the mind of their members lol. oh yes, the question, does the catholic church still support the young earth theory (by which I mean it is 6000 years old instead of 4.6 billion) despite being scientifically dis proven? I know that the catholic church has thrown out other beliefs that have been dis proven (a geocentric universe, the sun rotating around the earth and the world being flat) so I was wondering if the same was true for the young earth theory.
Hi Amazin. Welcome to the forums. People here generally do not have a fear of minds being 'poisoned" by your questions. Feel free to ask whatever questions you have. The only thing we generally ask is that you follow forum rules and post one question per thread, so they can be discussed thoroughly.

As for your question about a young earth, I don’t believe the Church has ever had any teachings on the age of the earth, let alone a specifically young earth teaching. However, I may be wrong on that. Can you provide something for us to look at which shows the Catholic Church taught (or teaches) a 6000 year old earth?
yes, i know how the reasons about WHY god did what he did though they seem heartless and brutal to me, but I was more getting at why he even bothered. The catholic Church doesn’t condone stem cell research, more specifically embryo farming, because it opposes creating life to destroy it. Is that not what god did to all post-Noah life created? I know that we have free will and all that so there is no need for quoting more bible scripture on that issue, but god knew the choices we would make which would lead him to destroy all living creatures on the planet. therefore, he creating life knowing that that he was just going to destroy it, the same as embryo farming and stem cell research.
I’m sorry for those posts I didn’t reply to but I am crunched for time right now, I did read them all though.
The reason the Catholic Church condemns embryonic stem cell research (she has no problems with other types of stem cell research) is because we as humans are not God. We do not have the authority to create and destroy life at our whim. As creatures, we do not have the right nor the authority to say that some innocent human being gets to live and some other must die.
 
does the catholic church still support the young earth theory (by which I mean it is 6000 years old instead of 4.6 billion) despite being scientifically dis proven?
O.K. for a question like this I need to see the document you claim is Church teaching. The reason for this is, there are over 1.1 Billion Catholics, not every word from every one of those 1.1 billion is “Church teaching”. Not even the popes personal opinion is “Church teaching”, in fact most of their opinions are just that, a persons opinion. The “official” teachings are not what you seem to think. So when you say, “does the catholic church still support” XYZ, you need to show where you’re getting this idea of Church “support” to begin with. You’ll find a wealth of opinions out there, but again not “Church support”. Getting back to the question, the Church doesn’t teach either, young or old, you’re free to believe in either. The Church embraces scientific research, she always has. The Church doesn’t, generally, teach officially on matters of science which do not infringe or are associated with faith, morals, or Scripture. Stem cell research infringes on morals in the cases where a life is terminated for the cells. That’s murder in any case.
I know that the catholic church has thrown out other beliefs that have been dis proven (a geocentric universe, the sun rotating around the earth and the world being flat) so I was wondering if the same was true for the young earth theory
You know the Catholic Church has thrown out other beliefs? Again we need to look at what the Church actually taught, and how you think it has changed. In all probability the “beliefs” you’re speaking of weren’t beliefs to begin with. The Church teaches she is correct on matters of faith, morals, and Scripture. Geocentrism, world being flat, not so much faith, moral or Scripture.
also, to all the answers of my first questions I know what the bible says about why Jesus died, I think I read one that sort of answered my question but raised another. well…okay, but that doesn’t really coincide with the all-loving side of god. what you are saying is that god knows best and that anything he does is handled in the best way possible. with all due respect I think that is an easy out to this question.
Giving you the greatest gift imaginable isn’t a loving God? You think if you were crawling around on all fours, with no soul, it would show His love for you? I don’t understand this logic.
yes, i know how the reasons about WHY god did what he did though they seem heartless and brutal to me, but I was more getting at why he even bothered.
the_amazin_man;2398278:
The catholic Church doesn’t condone stem cell research, more specifically embryo farming, because it opposes creating life to destroy it.
Again let’s look at what the Church actually teaches. The Church is not against scientific research, it’s against the murder of human life for the research. A huge difference. Is the Catholic Church against the collection and use of post partum embryo chords? Is the Church against the use of embryonic stem cells which are not the result of murder?
 
hmmm! interesting thread! Thread marker, so I can follow this thread. How many times have we been here! 😛
 
I think I understand where you are coming from about the brutality and harshness of the OT portrayal of God as an angry, vengeful, war-mongering, destroying God. You must remember who the OT was originally written for–a brutal, tribal, warring people often described as hard-necked and disobedient. And you also have to consider that just because that is all that was written down does not mean that that was all the happened or the whole story! There is a thot expressed in the NT by Mary about how she treasured everything about Jesus in her heart but that it would take many more books written to contain it all. All the Bible is, according to the Church, is ENOUGH. It is not ALL there is. It is enough to support our faith. But Catholics also give the same validity to Tradition and Magisterium. We believe in the Word of God Alone-not Sola Scriptura- the Word being all those things, not just Scripture.
Ravyn
 
Perhaps its a good idea for you to read the Bible, then pose a valid question. But without actually “reading” the Bible, how do you really know what it says?
I have read this portion of the bible and I am aware of basically what it says and I don’t see what mistakes I have made in the story the bible tells, I have not gone into any specific verses so I can only assume you mean that I am wrong about god sacrificing his only son. I think most people would disagree with you on that one.
No not really, for if there is no God, then who on earth is it that defines what the “best way possible?”
what I meant was that I was looking for an answer as to why god would do such a thing and the answer I got was a sort of “because he can” sort of answer that wasn’t to my satisfaction (with no disrespect intended to the original poster).

I would also like to apologize to everyone about the idea of the catholic church supporting ideas. I had just assumed, in fact I was almost sure, that the Vatican did give statements as to the churches position on certain issues. I was not talking about individual catholic views but the stance that the actual church, the Vatican, took.

BTW, by the ideas they threw out, I was more referring to medieval Catholic church, when they actually made the laws, and Galileo and Copernicus dis proving those ideas.
 
Copernicus was a Catholic monk himself and always in good standing with the Church - so the Vatican had no problem with a heliocentric view per se. As for Galileo, I believe part of the problem was that he was teaching his theories as fact when there was insufficient evidence.
 
Copernicus was a Catholic monk himself and always in good standing with the Church - so the Vatican had no problem with a heliocentric view per se. As for Galileo, I believe part of the problem was that he was teaching his theories as fact when there was insufficient evidence.
For the most part this is true. Wikipedia Galileo and you’ll see a lot of information in regards to the whole situation. In 1992 Pope John Paul II expressed regret for the whole situation with Galileo. But, you’re spot on about Copernicus.

Respectfully,
Mark
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top