A filioque question without contention, just need a sufficient answer.(I.E. Orthodox need not apply)

[Gregory_I]

I am ROMAN CATHOLIC, (I had a brief stint with Orthodoxy and an even briefer one with mono/mia-physitism, so this is where this question is coming from) and I have another FILIOQUE question.

We say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from one principle. Good, I give the assent of faith. But the Augustinian description of the Father eternally loving the Son, and the Son eternally loving the Father, and establishing a relation of opposition between these two acts of love that gives birth to a third person confuses me.

Here is Why: **Presuming this act (Which is ultimately ineffable) does occur in this manner, are we to then conclude that the Father Does not love the Spirit, or The Son love the Spirit? And if they do (which they do), why is there not set up second degree levels of opposition Between the Father and the Spirit and The Son and the Spirit? **

Why do these “relationships of opposition” not “spirate” the “4th and 5th” persons of the Godhead in an increasingly subordinationist godhead ad infinitum?

Or alternatively…could these more subordinate “beings” Be angels? But then again, angels cannot create, and so the relationships between say the 4th and 5th “Persons” would not Generate a 6th person in a way analagous to the Father and Son.

SO to sum it up:

why not ad infinitum relations of opposition spirating divine persons ad infinitum?

(or did I just invent the Thomistic recipe for polytheism?)

Is this simply the limit of Scholastic Theology in this particular area?

 

[Cluny]

\
Why do these “relationships of opposition” not “spirate” the “4th and 5th” persons of the Godhead in an increasingly subordinationist godhead ad infinitum?\

This is one of the reasons why Orthodox object to Filioque.

Another reason is that the Greek verb for “proceed” simply does not mean what the Latin verb does, hence one cannot say “The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son” in Greek without embracing heresy.

The biggest reason, of course, is that one part of the Church cannot impose a chanage in the text of the Creed, which was accepted by all.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

I am ROMAN CATHOLIC, (I had a brief stint with Orthodoxy and an even briefer one with mono/mia-physitism, so this is where this question is coming from) and I have another FILIOQUE question.

We say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from one principle. Good, I give the assent of faith. But the Augustinian description of the Father eternally loving the Son, and the Son eternally loving the Father, and establishing a relation of opposition between these two acts of love that gives birth to a third person confuses me.

Here is Why: **Presuming this act (Which is ultimately ineffable) does occur in this manner, are we to then conclude that the Father Does not love the Spirit, or The Son love the Spirit? And if they do (which they do), why is there not set up second degree levels of opposition Between the Father and the Spirit and The Son and the Spirit? **

Why do these “relationships of opposition” not “spirate” the “4th and 5th” persons of the Godhead in an increasingly subordinationist godhead ad infinitum?

Or alternatively…could these more subordinate “beings” Be angels? But then again, angels cannot create, and so the relationships between say the 4th and 5th “Persons” would not Generate a 6th person in a way analagous to the Father and Son.

SO to sum it up:

why not ad infinitum relations of opposition spirating divine persons ad infinitum?

(or did I just invent the Thomistic recipe for polytheism?)

Is this simply the limit of Scholastic Theology in this particular area?

I would say the reason there cannot be additional spirations of Divine Persons is because only Truth and Love can be so infinite as to make up a Divine Person. In other words, nothing further could spirate to make up a Divine Person.

It makes sense to me that the Word of God would proceed from the Father as a thoughts proceeds from the intellect of man; and if further makes sense that, if the Word of God was equal to the Father, that the contemplation of the two would be such love that it would spirate a Third Person - Who is love Personified.

Now, if we take this further, what infinite thing could be spirated by the contemplation of the Father and the Holy Ghost, or the Word and the Holy Ghost? For another Divine Person to be spirated, it would require that something more than love and truth could be an infinite Divine Person.

Regarding the angels: The angels are created substances, and as such in no way equal to the Three Divine Persons, who are uncreated substance.

 

[Gregory_I]

Obviously this is why I asked it.

Returning to Roman Catholicism, I give the assent of Catholic Faith like I said before; I would simply like an explanation of why what I described above does not happen, because obviosuly it does not.

 

[Gregory_I]

" I would say the reason there cannot be additional spirations of Divine Persons is because only Truth and Love can be so infinite as to make up a Divine Person. In other words, nothing further could spirate to make up a Divine Person.

It makes sense to me that the Word of God would proceed from the Father as a thoughts proceeds from the intellect of man; and if further makes sense that, if the Word of God was equal to the Father, that the contemplation of the two would be such love that it would spirate a Third Person - Who is love Personified.

Now, if we take this further, what infinite thing could be spirated by the contemplation of the Father and the Holy Ghost, or the Word and the Holy Ghost? For another Divine Person to be spirated, it would require that something more than love and truth could be an infinite Divine Person."

Ultima, I think your answer has something to it, but it seems to also be somewhat evasive, because it implies something about the Holy Spirit’s Relationship to the Father and the Word must be in someway less than the the realtionship between the Father and the Word, yet you call the Holy Spirit Love personified.

What I mean is What Kind of spiration indeed could occur between the Personification of Love, Who is God, and the Father of His Being who is Himself Love and the First Principle?

Remember love and truth are energies of God, his attributes.
You do not establish a relationship of attributes, but of PERSONS, in this case divine Persons.

SO, why is there a difference between the relationships of the Word and the Spirit and the Spirit and the Father? Are these relationships less potent, less energetic, less divine, less meaningful, less Powerful and dynamic than the relationship between Father and Word?

My original question still stands.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

Ultima, I think your answer has something to it, but it seems to also be somewhat evasive, because it implies something about the Holy Spirit’s Relationship to the Father and the Word must be in someway less than the the realtionship between the Father and the Word, yet you call the Holy Spirit Love personified.

What I mean is What Kind of spiration indeed could occur between the Personification of Love, Who is God, and the Father of His Being who is Himself Love and the First Principle?

Remember love and truth are energies of God, his attributes.
You do not establish a relationship of attributes, but of PERSONS, in this case divine Persons.

SO, why is there a difference between the relationships of the Word and the Spirit and the Spirit and the Father? Are these relationships less potent, less energetic, less divine, less meaningful, less Powerful and dynamic than the relationship between Father and Word?

My original question still stands.

It’s not that my answer was evasive. It’s just that these are difficult questions and I am only giving my thoughts, which admittedly are not clear and settled. Unfortunately, we are in an area of theology where we are kind of on our own, since, as far as I know, these questions have not been raised and dealt with. So we are, in a sense, in virgin territory.

To summarize what I think we can say with some certitude at this points, is that nothing beyond love and truth can be so infinite that they can be Divine Persons in the One God. Therefore, this would limit the Divine Persons to Three. The Father, the Word (Truth Personified), and the Holy Ghost (Love Personified).

Something else to remember is that the Three Persons are exactly the same and completely equal. There is no essential difference between the Three Persons. If there was a difference in any way between the Three Persons, it would imply something lacking in the one or more of the Persons; and if something was lacking, they would neither be infinite, nor equal. Neither is there a first or a last person, even though we refer to God the Father as the first Person. Each of the three Persons are completely equal with neither preceeding the others. So, although the Holy Ghost is spirated, He is essentially equal to the other two Persons, and not subsequent to them, even though He is spirated by them.

The only difference is that the Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten by the Father, and the Holy Ghost proceeds from both. But this is so from all Eternity, with no before or after. So, the Father did not come first, and then beget the son. And the Father and son did not spirate the Holy Ghost subsequent to the Son being begotten. The Father begetting the Son, and the Holy Ghost proceeding from the Father and Son is from all Eternity.

But your question is: Why is not a fourth and fifth Person spirated? My answer is because nothing more could be spirated. The contemplation of the Son and the Holy Ghost would not spirate more than already existed. **Actually, I think that is the answer… **

If the contemplation of the Father and the Holy Ghost, or the Son and the Holy Ghost could spirate another Person, it would imply that something more could exist in God; but if something more could exist in God, it would imply that some potency exists in God; but of any potency exists in God, then God is not infinite, and thus not God, for God is, by definition, complete Act with no potency.

I think that is the answer: Nothing more can be spirated because nothing more could exists. God is already perfectly complete as He is; and if more could exist, it would imply a defect in God, which is not possible.

 

[Gregory_I]

It’s not that my answer was evasive. It’s just that these are difficult questions and I am only giving my thoughts, which admittedly are not clear and settled. Unfortunately, we are in an area of theology where we are kind of on our own, since, as far as I know, these questions have not been raised and dealt with. So we are, in a sense, in virgin territory.

To summarize what I think we can say with some certitude at this points, is that nothing beyond love and truth can be so infinite that they can be Divine Persons in the One God. Therefore, this would limit the Divine Persons to Three. The Father, the Word (Truth Personified), and the Holy Ghost (Love Personified).

With no desire for contention, I just want a clarification on something from you Ultima: You equate truth and love with Divine persons, but as I said, both eastern theology and the western patristic tradition attest that God’s Energies, that is his personal attributes, or “Properties” (which is problematic itself, each person being simple and non-mechanical) are not his Person. We are talking about a relationship between three ineffable divine persons, not the energies, not the Attributes.

For example The Father Son and Spirit are perfectly equal, so they possess in fullness the very “properties” you are using to distinguish them. THEY are love, THEY are truth, THEY are goodness, light, virtue, wisdom, splendor, ineffability and anything else you can put into words. They are only distinguished in the way you described, namely their relations to one another.

So, KNOWING this, how do you arrive at Identifying each person with an attribute common to the rest and then making the assertion that nothing greater than these can exist when, as I said before, each person posseses THOSE ATTRIBUTES IN FULLNESS?

I don’t understand the foundation you seem to be building on, and thus:

Why is there no relation of opposition between Word and Spirit, or Father and Spirit analagous to the one we have with the Father and Son? Why does it seem like these relationships (F/Sp, S/sp) are in some sense subordinated or not as…powerful?

I am reading you Ultima, but I just don’t get the foundation of your argument.

If the contemplation of the Father and the Holy Ghost, or the Son and the Holy Ghost could spirate another Person, it would imply that something more could exist in God; but if something more could exist in God, it would imply that some potency exists in God; but of any potency exists in God, then God is not infinite, and thus not God, for God is, by definition, complete Act with no potency.

Could not a monist or a muslim use this argument to discount the Trinity altogether? Why cannot this “something more in God” be viewed as the spirit and the son? Why can this argument against potency not apply to them?

I believe, Lord help my unbelief/confusion over scholastic theology.

Peacefully,

The Best Pope who ever lived. (And Leo I of course)

 

[Gregory_I]

OKAY, I think I may have found the answer, bear with me:

The Orthodox objection (one anyway) to the Prinicipaly Singular double procession of the Holy Spirit, is that setting up relations of opposition between the Father and Son necessitates a question: Why not set up relations between the Spirit and Father and the Spirit and Word that produce 4th and 5th persons?

HERE IS THE ANSWER: Because it is an error to separate the persons of the Trinity!

“BUt how do we separate them?”

Because you say each Person must love one and not another with a singular love: The Father must love the Son apart from the Spirit. The Son must love the Spirit apart from the Father. Not SO!

The Trinity is One. The Persons are distinct, but not separate. Therefore, when ONE Person loves he loves BOTH of the others with a singular love! BOTH interpenetrate one. The Father loves the Son and the Spirit with a singular love! The Spirit loves the Father and the Son (Since he is “the emmissary of love” proceeding principally from the Father, and by the Fathers gift, from the Son) with a singular love, and the Son Loves the Father and the Spirit, since the Spirit proceeds principally from the Father as “the emissary of His love” for the Son!

SO, here is how I envision it, and I believe the church does too (correct me if I am wrong):

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from a single principle. (De fide)

Proceeding principally from the Father, he bears the Fathers love as his own for the Son. The Son eternally loves the Father and the Spirit and receives the love of both as one, and the Spirit in turn proceeds from the Son through the gift of the Father (as per St. Augustine, having received all things from the Father save being unbegotten) to the Father bearing the love of the Son. The Father Eternally loves the Spirit and the Son and receives the love of both as one and loves both with a singular love.

And yet both these processions are as from a single principle, For the Father is still the fountain of the Trinity, and the Spirit proceeding from the Son is only by the Fathers gift, therefore, we preserve the Monarchy of the Father. Likewise, each person loving the other two with a singular love and singular attention keeps us safe from opposition ad infinitum.
Bear in mind that all these actions, though described in time, are timeless, without succession. They are eternally, NOW.

This is intimately bound up with the belief that each person within the Most Blessed Trinity penetrates the other. Where the Word is, there is the Father and Spirit, where the Spirit is, there is the Father and Word and where the Father is, there is the Word and Spirit.

A relative human example: A father loves his newborn son not apart from from the mother, but because the mother has given him a son; and he does not love the wife apart from the son, because it is on account of his son that his love is aflame, thus he loves both with a single love. Likewise, the mother does not love the son apart from the father, for she received him from the father; neither does she love the father apart from her son, because it is on account of her bearing a son that she is filled with love toward the father. Thus she loves both with a single love.
Granted this may be unfallen humanity, but you get the point

 

[Benadam]

I hope I am contributing and not distracting with this post If I am the latter I hope for correction. This thread has unfolded in a way that may present a possible opportunity for me to make a contribution. I think it’s possible, that the particular view of the Trinity current to me now, may offer a conceptual connection that may be constructive.

God eternally generates Cognizance of Himself.
God knowing God.
God generates Cognizance of self,
God generates His Word,
His internal conversation,
His Son.

God knowing God spirates God because from knowing Himself flows His Spirit

God knowing Himself generates likeness and kind.
Ungenerated God generates God knowing Himself,
His Word and internal conversation from which flows God loving God which is God, His Spirit of whom St John knows God is Love.
God that is reachable by human reason.
The spiration of God is love that flows from God knowing God

Well there it is, I hope I haven’t insulted ya’all by thinking too much of my understanding

 

[Gregory_I]

NOT AT ALL!!! NO insult that is. What yousaid is basically what I said, except you intellectualized it.

 

[Benadam]

NOT AT ALL!!! NO insult that is. What yousaid is basically what I said, except you intellectualized it.

Thanks Gregory. Wow! That wasn’t there when I started to reply. Peculiar serendipity. I doubt I wold have posted if I had seen it. Peace to you Gregory.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Ultima, I think your answer has something to it, but it seems to also be somewhat evasive, because it implies something about the Holy Spirit’s Relationship to the Father and the Word must be in someway less than the the realtionship between the Father and the Word, yet you call the Holy Spirit Love personified.

What I mean is What Kind of spiration indeed could occur between the Personification of Love, Who is God, and the Father of His Being who is Himself Love and the First Principle?

Remember love and truth are energies of God, his attributes.
You do not establish a relationship of attributes, but of PERSONS, in this case divine Persons.

SO, why is there a difference between the relationships of the Word and the Spirit and the Spirit and the Father? Are these relationships less potent, less energetic, less divine, less meaningful, less Powerful and dynamic than the relationship between Father and Word?

My original question still stands.

Gregory:

Try reading and then saying the Athanasian Creed (Link from The Church Society & Link from Theopedia). The Catholic Church used to do this Creed regularly before Vatican II. Now, you’re lucky if you do it once a year. You also might look at the sections on this in the old Baltimore Catechism, the new Catechism of the Catholic Church & the Compendium of the Catechism. Ask your parish priest to direct your study.

St. Cyril the Great said that those who got into questions such as yours risked going mad. and, St. Paul questioned us against getting into disputes on topics such as this. I really think we need to take their advice, because I don’t see how this is going to help us love God with all our heart, strength, mind & soul, love our neighbors as ourselves, pray in the Spirit, submit to the Lord & His Church or spread the Healing Gospel of Jesus Christ to a wounded and dying world. and, Worse, disputes such as this can cause scandal to unbelievers and to those new to the faith.

Please, Read & Accept the Church’s explanation. Accept that you don’t understand, and that the inner workings of Trinity are a MYSTERION as beyond our comprehension as spaceflight is beyond the comprehension of an ant. St. Paul the Apostle said in 1 Corinthians 13 that we now see God as in a fogged-up mirror, but that we would see Him face to face and that we would know as we are known.

When our hearts & minds are ready, we’ll understand - not one nanosecond before.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Gregory_I]

I will accept mystery. I will not accept others making objections to our faith and not responding.

If a person can come up with a semi-intelligent objection to an article of faith, it is our moral duty to investigate the question, less we run the risk of being willfully ignorant.

All that is in the Fathers, I accept.
All that the Roman Catholic church has proposed De Fide, I accept.
ALl the Scholastic THEORIES, I do not necessarily accept.
I agree with Augustine (SPirit Proceeds From the SOn through the Gift of the Father.)
I accept Lyons and Florence (The Holy SPirit proceeds from the Father and the SOn as from a single principle).
I accept the concept but not necessarilly ALL the language of the Spirit being the pledge of the Fathers Love for the SOn and Vice versa BECAUSE it enables the asking of dumb questions, namely, does the Spirit not love the Father? Does the Son not love the Spirit?

I said I came from an Orthodox position recently, and I want to clear this up. After prayer and thoughtfulness, I think I did. It is not madness to answer the objections of schismatic neighbors.

I Peter: Be always prepared to give an answer for the Hope that is in you; but do this with gentleness and respect.

 

[Benadam]

I

Here is Why: **Presuming this act (Which is ultimately ineffable) does occur in this manner, are we to then conclude that the Father Does not love the Spirit, or The Son love the Spirit? And if they do (which they do), why is there not set up second degree levels of opposition Between the Father and the Spirit and The Son and the Spirit? **

 

[Gregory_I]

I like what you have to say, but may I ask, what do you think of my opinon , namely :

The Orthodox objection (one anyway) to the Prinicipaly Singular double procession of the Holy Spirit, is that setting up relations of opposition between the Father and Son necessitates a question: Why not set up relations between the Spirit and Father and the Spirit and Word that produce 4th and 5th persons?

HERE IS THE ANSWER: Because it is an error to separate the persons of the Trinity!

“BUt how do we separate them?”

Because you say each Person must love one and not another with a singular love: The Father must love the Son apart from the Spirit. The Son must love the Spirit apart from the Father. Not SO!

The Trinity is One. The Persons are distinct, but not separate. Therefore, when ONE Person loves he loves BOTH of the others with a singular love! BOTH interpenetrate one. The Father loves the Son and the Spirit with a singular love! The Spirit loves the Father and the Son (Since he is “the emmissary of love” proceeding principally from the Father, and by the Fathers gift, from the Son) with a singular love, and the Son Loves the Father and the Spirit, since the Spirit proceeds principally from the Father as “the emissary of His love” for the Son!

SO, here is how I envision it, and I believe the church does too (correct me if I am wrong):

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from a single principle. (De fide)

Proceeding principally from the Father, he bears the Fathers love as his own for the Son. The Son eternally loves the Father and the Spirit and receives the love of both as one, and the Spirit in turn proceeds from the Son through the gift of the Father (as per St. Augustine, having received all things from the Father save being unbegotten) to the Father bearing the love of the Son. The Father Eternally loves the Spirit and the Son and receives the love of both as one and loves both with a singular love.

And yet both these processions are as from a single principle, For the Father is still the fountain of the Trinity, and the Spirit proceeding from the Son is only by the Fathers gift, therefore, we preserve the Monarchy of the Father. Likewise, each person loving the other two with a singular love and singular attention keeps us safe from opposition ad infinitum.
Bear in mind that all these actions, though described in time, are timeless, without succession. They are eternally, NOW.

This is intimately bound up with the belief that each person within the Most Blessed Trinity penetrates the other. Where the Word is, there is the Father and Spirit, where the Spirit is, there is the Father and Word and where the Father is, there is the Word and Spirit.

A relative human example: A father loves his newborn son not apart from from the mother, but because the mother has given him a son; and he does not love the wife apart from the son, because it is on account of his son that his love is aflame, thus he loves both with a single love. Likewise, the mother does not love the son apart from the father, for she received him from the father; neither does she love the father apart from her son, because it is on account of her bearing a son that she is filled with love toward the father. Thus she loves both with a single love.
Granted this may be unfallen humanity, but you get the point

DO you consider this an orthodox expression of the Faith of the Roman Catholic Church

 

[Benadam]

I like what you have to say, but may I ask, what do you think of my opinon , namely :

DO you consider this an orthodox expression of the Faith of the Roman Catholic Church

I don’t find anything contrary to the Faith of the Roman Catholic Church.

I think one must keep in mind that what is being decribed is life that exists in duration without succession, beginning or end. The habit of conceptualizing a chronology causes confusion when expressing the inner life that exists outside of time.

That the Father’s relationship with the Son is God’s love originating but doesn’t distinguish the Spirit as a Person. The Spirit experiences the same love for the Son but not related to the Son as His Father. The Spirit of God is loving the Son with the Father’s love and always has just as the Father always has.

 

[turtleoompa]

The spirit can proceed from the Son. Remember at Penticost , He breathed upon them the Spirit. Jesus is God. The Spirit does proceed from God. God the Father and God the Son. It is very simple. It is not that complicated.