A final question--no discussion--on Medjugorje?

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I apologise, but the thread was shut down far too quickly for me to ask a 2nd question. Thank you, everyone, for your answer. In case you’re reading this and are lost, this is what I was referring to. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=116090

I have a final question and that can be it. Am I allowed to discuss the content of the booklet I was reading? I ask because it talks about the evils of divorce and the proper way to raise up children. I’m not sure if it talks about more, as I haven’t finished the book yet.

Just to clarify… I am not promoting anything. I will not discuss it and I won’t post anymore questions if the booklet is banned material. So please at least answer my question?

Thank you and God bless.
 
I apologise, but the thread was shut down far too quickly for me to ask a 2nd question. Thank you, everyone, for your answer. In case you’re reading this and are lost, this is what I was referring to. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=116090

I have a final question and that can be it. Am I allowed to discuss the content of the booklet I was reading? I ask because it talks about the evils of divorce and the proper way to raise up children. I’m not sure if it talks about more, as I haven’t finished the book yet.

Just to clarify… I am not promoting anything. I will not discuss it and I won’t post anymore questions if the booklet is banned material. So please at least answer my question?

Thank you and God bless.
You should ask the moderators if its okay or not. I don’t think it would be allowed if what you want to discuss from the book has anything to do with the alleged messages from Medjugorie, i.e. if the author is basing views on anything the alleged visionaries have said because that would be discussing the messages in a round about way.
 
I think I was contacted by a moderator, so it looks like a limited discussion is okay, so long as its only about the book. At least, that’s what I gleaned from the private message I received.

I understand that a lot [if not most] of the Medjugorje * messages aren’t good and show these apparitions to be frauds, but what do we do with the good messages? Like the evils of divorce messages–which are something a lot of women would be nicely educated by if they had read them. Or are they rendered void by the bad messages?

For example, and I’m paraphrasing… the book says that you can’t divorce your husband for any reason, because Jesus made marriage unbreakable. Whether there’s abuse involved, you realise you’re uncomfortable with the man you married, it turned out he lied about [or wasn’t] being Catholic, etc, That no matter what excuse you have, it doesn’t allow the marriage to be torn apart. The book goes so far as to say that Satan is the author of divorce. Some people might feel the Catholic position on marriage is a cruel trap, but I would rather obey the Church’s authority since it comes from our Lord. So would this message be very Catholic and very valid?
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I think I was contacted by a moderator, so it looks like a limited discussion is okay, so long as its only about the book. At least, that’s what I gleaned from the private message I received.

I understand that a lot [if not most] of the Medjugorje * messages aren’t good and show these apparitions to be frauds, but what do we do with the good messages? Like the evils of divorce messages–which are something a lot of women would be nicely educated by if they had read them. Or are they rendered void by the bad messages?

For example, and I’m paraphrasing… the book says that you can’t divorce your husband for any reason, because Jesus made marriage unbreakable. Whether there’s abuse involved, you realise you’re uncomfortable with the man you married, it turned out he lied about [or wasn’t] being Catholic, etc, That no matter what excuse you have, it doesn’t allow the marriage to be torn apart. The book goes so far as to say that Satan is the author of divorce. Some people might feel the Catholic position on marriage is a cruel trap, but I would rather obey the Church’s authority since it comes from our Lord. So would this message be very Catholic and very valid?
*

Forget about all Medjugorie messages. They are NOT approved. If you simply want to start a new thread about divorce thats fine then we can discuss divorce without making any reference to Medjugorie. The evils of divorce and many others things have been around long before Medjugorie popped up so they have nothing to do with the alleged messages.
 
Forget about all Medjugorie messages. They are NOT approved. If you simply want to start a new thread about divorce thats fine then we can discuss divorce without making any reference to Medjugorie. The evils of divorce and many others things have been around long before Medjugorie popped up so they have nothing to do with the alleged messages.
A lot of what the Medjugorie messages say is orthodox and not problematic in itself - the problem is that the claim that the message comes directly from the Blessed Virgin Mary is rather far-reaching…

The Catholic church, as is well known, does not not permit divorce on any grounds whatsoever. That is a hard teaching to accept, particularly when husband and wife mutually agree that the marriage has come to an end, or when one spouse, through no fault of their own, is abandoned, and then unable to marry many years later. However we must accept it, and the experience of th twentieth century is that society cannot survive liberal divorce laws without terrible damage to human happiness.
 
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For example, and I’m paraphrasing… the book says that you can’t divorce your husband for any reason, because Jesus made marriage unbreakable. Whether there’s abuse involved, you realise you’re uncomfortable with the man you married, it turned out he lied about [or wasn’t] being Catholic, etc, That no matter what excuse you have, it doesn’t allow the marriage to be torn apart.
If my husband started beating on me or my kids, I would divorce him faster than you can SAY Medjugorje.
 
A lot …

The Catholic church, as is well known, does not not permit divorce on any grounds whatsoever. .
you are going to need a source for that, because it is not what the CCC says. the Catholic Church does not permit remarriage after divorce, but civil divorce is permitted if it is the only way to secure the legal rights of spouse or children, to protect spouse or children from abuse or danger etc…
 
I think I was contacted by a moderator, so it looks like a limited discussion is okay, so long as its only about the book. At least, that’s what I gleaned from the private message I received.

I understand that a lot [if not most] of the Medjugorje * messages aren’t good and show these apparitions to be frauds, but what do we do with the good messages? Like the evils of divorce messages–which are something a lot of women would be nicely educated by if they had read them. Or are they rendered void by the bad messages?*## Even in the case of “approved” apparitions - the Church never positively approves them, but instead says they can be safely believed; a somewhat different matter - even in those cases, only the recipients of them have any kind of moral obligation to believe them. And there is no need to assume that the recipient’s account is a totally pure, unmediated, “transcript” of the message; it suffices that St.Bernardette (say) got the gist of the “Lady’s” messages correct.

This is even more the case (if possible) with unapproved or doubtful apparitions. Veronica Leuken may have received some genuine messages - but there is no sure way of being sure, & many counter-indications which suggest that her messages are not supernatural: so the allegedly supernatural status of the Bayside apparitions has been explicitly rejected: so, as a matter of practice, they cannot safely be accepted by us as being supernatural.

Messages which are not supernatural, or only doubtfully so, must be judged by what is already known to be certainly true. If there is anything in doubtful apparitions which can be known to be certainly true, that may be useful - but it can be found in what is already known, so at most it confirms what is known already. IMHO, it was a mistake to relax the pre-1969 discipline regarding the speading of alleged private revelations.

Messages which attack the Church, the Papacy, a liturgical rite or practice approved or permitted by the Papacy, any item of Catholic teaching, the status of a Council, or any other such thing, are self-condemned as false, & should be shunned like the plague. This is especially true of the lying visions which call the legitimacy of the Second Vatican Council, the reformed Missal of Paul VI, or the validity of any of the Popes since & including Leo XIII, into question. To do so is gravely erroneous, since these matters are all guaranteed to be legitimate by their status as dogmatic facts - that is, facts which have to be valid for dogmas such as the visibility & perpetuity of the Church to be realities. A message or apparition denying that Paul VI & his successors are legitimate Popes, & that their acts in regulating the worship of the Universal Church were & are legitimate, is therefore gravely erroneous.

Apparitions & messages cannot take the place of, or have the same status as, Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition (in the sense in which the teaching Church understands them); they are not a “third testament”: and it is very unhealthy to base one’s spiritual life upon them; for that is a weight of confidence they cannot bear.

The same applies to prophecies of disasters, of the end of the world or the date of this, or of the birth or rising of Antichrist, & so forth.
 
Forget about all Medjugorie messages. They are NOT approved. If you simply want to start a new thread about divorce thats fine then we can discuss divorce without making any reference to Medjugorie. The evils of divorce and many others things have been around long before Medjugorie popped up so they have nothing to do with the alleged messages.
**
Its not a hard teaching for me to accept, but it is taking me a while to let it soak in. I didn’t know that the CCC talked about divorce and that there were other sources to consult about this topic, besides CAF.

[looks at the booklet] I guess I bought this for nothing, then? I was very naive to buy it. At best, its just an object of curiousity rather than enlightening material that I thought Mary had wanted all women to receive and understand.

My final question is this… with these messages not being approved…WHY do some Catholics accept and umm… “fan-groupie” the messages? It doesn’t make sense to me. I’d rather follow the Pope than a bunch of messages that say false things.
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Its not a hard teaching for me to accept, but it is taking me a while to let it soak in. I didn’t know that the CCC talked about divorce and that there were other sources to consult about this topic, besides CAF.

[looks at the booklet] I guess I bought this for nothing, then? I was very naive to buy it. At best, its just an object of curiousity rather than enlightening material that I thought Mary had wanted all women to receive and understand.

My final question is this… with these messages not being approved…WHY do some Catholics accept and umm… “fan-groupie” the messages? It doesn’t make sense to me. I’d rather follow the Pope than a bunch of messages that say false things.
**
All apparitions have had their promoters and detractors, before during and after approval. Even with explicit non-approval there are still some that promote Bayside or Conyers, for example.

Lots of reasons why this is so. Some are ignorant of the Church’s view on apparitions in general, others are wrongly told that they are approved when in fact they aren’t. Others still simply think they know better or different than the Church or the Pope.
 
**Oh. That makes sense. So… what do I do with this book? Do I write in the front cover “example of Catholic-illegal material” and shelf it away, or should I burn it? I can’t believe I bought this book from a St. Vincent de Paul shop. **
 
**Oh. That makes sense. So… what do I do with this book? Do I write in the front cover “example of Catholic-illegal material” and shelf it away, or should I burn it? I can’t believe I bought this book from a St. Vincent de Paul shop. **
Material which doesn’t represent the church’s teaching, but looks superfically as though it might be official or approved, is more dangerous than outright anti-Christian tracts.

Mark the book as “not representing any official position of the Church” and don’t give it to young people or to those who are poorly educated and impressionable. However there is no reason to ban free speech, and everyone should own at least one books whose contents they disagree with.
 
you are going to need a source for that, because it is not what the CCC says. the Catholic Church does not permit remarriage after divorce, but civil divorce is permitted if it is the only way to secure the legal rights of spouse or children, to protect spouse or children from abuse or danger etc…
I should have qualified. A divorce is not recognised as ending the marraige, which can be dissolved only by death. However a person divorced against his or her will, obviously, commits no sin. Under rare circumstances it may be permissible to seek a civil divorce, for instance to protect assets or access to children, or to restrain a partner from violence. However only if the divorce is seen as a temporary legal technciality to alleviate the current situation, and entered into with the intention of resolving the problems and restoring the marriage.
 
**I know what you mean. When I bought this, I thought it was approved. Both because of the format of the book and because it was at the St. Vincent de Paul shop. Before this happened, I thought I could never be fooled by something that was anti-Catholic. Now, I’m not so sure. I mean, it LOOKS Catholic. This book is certainly a different swing from the Jack Chick tracts. Here’s something else that made it look approved, though it didn’t have those Nihil Obstat things on it…

**
1993, St. James Publishing
All rights reserved including international rights.
The reproduction of part or all of this publication without obtaining written permission from St. James Publishing is expressly forbidden.
**So, if I wanted to ask questions about any part of this book, I would have to paraphrase it rather than quote it. But the point is, the publishing company looks legit, especially with that “St.” on there. Above the publishing information is the Caritas organisation stuff, including the offer to get a free audiotape about Medjujorge.

One of the last few things the book mentions is the evil of materialism and that Mary won’t be appearing to us anymore. Like the other subjects talked about in this book, materialism can safely believed to be an evil. However, I don’t believe this was Mary’s last appearance nor that she’ll ever stop. I think she still appears at Lourdes and Fatima, am I right?

I understand that apparitions are private and approvals means they can be safely believed, but can’t the Church police these things better or differently? They probably should ban unapproved-apparition books and heretical books–I’m happy they banned Dan Brown’s books–since they DO victimise young people and those that don’t know much about the Church. They victimise even gullible people–like me.

I guess it helps that we all spread the word about books like this. Make an exposee of them just like a Catholic website did with the Jack Chick tracts.
**
 
I should have qualified. A divorce is not recognised as ending the marraige, which can be dissolved only by death. However a person divorced against his or her will, obviously, commits no sin. Under rare circumstances it may be permissible to seek a civil divorce, for instance to protect assets or access to children, or to restrain a partner from violence. However only if the divorce is seen as a temporary legal technciality to alleviate the current situation, and entered into with the intention of resolving the problems and restoring the marriage.
[SIGN][/SIGN]

Just a thought here…For a marriage to be a sacrament, there must be no deception from either party when it is performed or else, there was no sacrament. Thus, the process of annulment. The OP has mentioned the spouse lying before/during the marriage…thus there is no sacrament if this could be proved by a number of witnesses…just a thought…
 
Only a response to a couple of side issues. Perhaps it will be helpful to read the canons mentioned below.
The Catholic church, as is well known, does not not permit divorce on any grounds whatsoever.
It does, and it does so very explicitly but only for certain very serious reasons. Canons 1151-1155 treat this, under the title, “Separation with the Bond Remaining.” They should be read. What they do not permit is divorce to convey a right to another marriage or to end the bond itself. Note the words of the title, “with the Bond Remaining.” The bond endures and continues to bind unless proven invalid or dissolved by a Church process. If proven invalid or dissolved by the Church, then we have a case of two people who were not joined together by God. In those cases, the prohibition of remarriage made by Christ would not apply. Otherwise it clearly would, and remarriage would result in adultery.
However only if the divorce is seen as a temporary legal technciality to alleviate the current situation, and entered into with the intention of resolving the problems and restoring the marriage.
This is not completely accurate since permanent separation can be permitted according to those canons. This qualification as stated is not placed by the Church. Divorce is tolerated under some very definite and precision conditions that those canons treat, and they should be read with care. Temporary separation is another matter and also discussed in the canons.
For a marriage to be a sacrament, there must be no deception from either party when it is performed or else, there was no sacrament. Thus, the process of annulment. The OP has mentioned the spouse lying before/during the marriage…thus there is no sacrament if this could be proved by a number of witnesses.
I think some clarification would be helpful here.

Only certain kinds of deception are relevant to grounds for the nullity of marriage per se.

This would be treated in canon 1098, in which a deceit is willfully perpetrated to obtain the marital consent of one party, and that deceit concerns some quality (a personal characteristic) of the second party, and that quality by its very nature can gravely disturb the partnership of conjugal life. There’s more to this of course. The gist is that it deprives the deceived party of the necessary knowledge, and in some sense, freedom, to give a valid human consent.

Otherwise, deception might contribute, with the other facts of the case, toward the proof of someone’s incapacity to either evaluate sufficiently the essential rights and duties of marriage, or to assume the essential obligations of marriage (c. 1095, ºº2-3).
 
All apparitions have had their promoters and detractors, before during and after approval. Even with explicit non-approval there are still some that promote Bayside or Conyers, for example.

Lots of reasons why this is so. Some are ignorant of the Church’s view on apparitions in general, others are wrongly told that they are approved when in fact they aren’t. Others still simply think they know better or different than the Church or the Pope.
Please do not lump Conyers with Bayside. Conyers was never disapproved or condemned. It was never investigated. The Bishop issued a letter stating that parishes could not lead pilgrimages. Individuals and priests could go personally, just as at Medj. It was never condemned. There is presently a Ukranian Catholic Church at the site, Mass every day and organized Rosary is still said there every weekend. The site is open every day for pilgrims and celebrates all Marian feast days…
 
**Conyers? Bayside? I’m not sure what to make of this part of the discussion, but this website might help with this part. apparitions.org

**[SIGN]Hooray for helpful sites![/SIGN]
 
when I first looked at this thread the conditions were discussing the ideas in a certain book about marriage, family and divorce, and the mods warned about jogging off topic, specifically unapproved apparitions, and sure enough, here were are talking about apparitions again. Are we completely unable or unwilling to stay on topic on this forum? We cannot, in these discussions, make blanket statements about Church teaching without authoritiy, citations, and links to the relevant documents. We cannot quote chunks out of books without giving title, author, source (nor can we violate copyright). If you want to discuss the ideas in a certain book, fine, do it on the appropriate forum and don’t drag in irrelevancies. Civil divorce does not end a valid marriage, but may be permitted in civil jurisdictions where it is the only way to secure the legal rights of spouses and children, to remove them from an abuse situation etc. As long as a divorced person is otherwise in a state of grace (have no mortal sins, are not remarried w/o annulment, cohabiting etc). they may receive and should receive communion.

What is the original topic of the discussion, by the way?
 
**Hmm? How am I dragging in irrelevancies? I’m trying to present the topics the book gave without violating any copyrights, which leaves me rather limited as to what I could discuss. I don’t mind if other apparitions are discussed–I don’t feel it hijacks the thread at all.

I’m getting the feeling you’re getting impatient just because my style of discussion seems limited. It IS limited. The limitation comes from being a newbie though I was here in CAF for a long while and I’m still new to forums as a medium and my mind often chokes on how to present material or give a response.
**
 
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