A Flag in the Sand - Non Denominational

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djrakowski:
Our pastor has said almost those exact words, only adding, “and if you ever hear me preach something from this pulpit that doesn’t accord with Scripture, fire me immediately and find a suitable replacement.”
Which is why we have a statement of faith with Scripture references to back up the individual articles.
Yes, very similar to the pope, he is well educated in Scripture, history, theology (and the current Pope, theater as he was in the underground theater as well as the underground seminary in Poland, interesting.) He doesn’t need to be “fired.” He has authourity as the Vicor of Christ, in succession of St. Peter he doestn’t just pull pull stuff out of his Pope hat. The Pope has the deposit of Sacred Tradition which includes, most importantly, Sacred Scripture. Sacred Scripture cannot conflict with Traditon because they were formed from the same body of knowledge and Apostolic Authoirty. (there are extensive threads on the limits of authority)
One of the interesting things I noticed from my before mentioned friend, it seemed at times she came to the same conclusion as me with Scripture, but she was lacking the fullness of the faith, such as historical information to use for help in interpretation, and she had alot of misconceptions about the Catholic Church because she didn’t know any better, and her minister could only answer her questions with the typical “They worship Mary, etc.” Thankfully our discussions helped her understand that Catholics don’t actually worship Mary and that we call our priests “father” in the same way St. Paul called himself “father” sorta like the “Dad” of the Church, rather than the blasphemy of calling a priest father as same as God the Father. That was another thing she was really worried about.

The closest understanding I got of her Non-denominational church is that from my perspective they were taking on the noble cause of reinventing the wheel through reinterpreting Scripture, fresh for themselves, because every denomination they have tried left them searching for better. I hope I didn’t sound too disrespectful in my earlier posts, but it was frustrating to see people condemn Catholocism yet struggle with what St. Paul meant by “Body of Christ” in his letters which we were studying in her Scripture study class.

Martin Luther had some good points about the abuse of indulgences, but the first protestant schism threw out the baby with the bath water. Can leaders make bad decisions? Yes, they are human. Does that make the entire body of Apostolic Traditon bad, does it mean they needed to throw out entire books of the Bible? I don’t think so. Does it mean that the Universal (Catholic Church) needed to be thrown out? In my opinion, no.

My point is that I feel a compassion toward my protestant brothers and sisters because they are struggling to understand Scripture standing alone without the help of the Sacred Tradition it was written out of. For example, How can one possibly understand Revelations without understanding that the imagery was taken out of the liturgy of the Mass? Without that simple understanding one comes up with all kinds of frightening images and conclusions. The Book of Revelations is a book of love and hope a promise that Christ will not leave Christians but will welcome them into the Kingdom. How can one understand what the Body of Christ means without knowing what the Apostles, themselves, believed it to mean. It makes me want to cry to think of people who love and are devoted so much to Christ and Scripture not to be able to receive Communion the way Christ established it. My friend was so pinned on little details about Noah’s Ark that she couldn’t see the amazing bigger picture, that it prefigures Baptism, that Noah was saved by his faith and obedience to God, among others. She loved the Gospels but unintentionally skimmed over important details and when I pointed them out she was amazed, but it was only because I had been taught to find them. I was OK with our different religious backgrounds, we prayed together, etc. but she didn’t like that we used the sign of the cross and used both rote prayer and spontaneous, she thought it should *all *be spontaneous. Yet, when her minister taught about the trinity she was so excited! She thought I didnt’ know about it and when I explained the sign of the cross she was shocked. I wish we were still friends but I guess the differences were too much for her.
At the end of the day, when Jesus sent out his Apostles he said “go out and teach” not “hurry up and invent the printing press so you can write all this stuff down and hand everyone a Bible so they can decide for themselves.” God loves us too much for that and gave us so much more with the Sacraments and Apostolic Tradition. I feel badly that throughout history the sins of a few hurt the Body of Christ by causing people to turn away from Truth. My heart is in the right place and I hope this doesn’ t read otherwise.
 
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djrakowski:
Which is why we have a statement of faith with Scripture references to back up the individual articles.
Catholics have the same thing, the Apostles Creed and the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is documented with Scripture and documents where the morality and theology developed. It’s extensive.

God Bless!
 
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bajolyn:
Greetings from one of the aforementioned “non-denoms!” The biggest struggle I have with coming to terms with Catholicism is the issue of baptismal regeneration. As someone who usually puts little stock in experience, but rather in objective truth, I find this question to be, for me, a strange one. But it is a big issue for me, nonetheless. In order to ask it, I have to give you a little background information. I was baptized and confirmed in a protestant denomination as a child. I never, however, had any sense of God’s presence in my life, nor did I live a life honoring to Christ. When I was in college, I repented of my sins, and put my faith in Christ for salvation - turning to Him with my whole heart. The change that was wrought in me was immediate, profound, and long-lasting (about 20 years now). At that time, I also experienced (for the first time) an intimate and continuing sense of Christ’s indwelling presence. My heart and life were transformed by His grace, and I have never been the same. We protestants would refer to my experience as being “born again.” Now, I realize that the Catholic Church teaches that individuals are born-again at baptism. If this is the case, why did I not experience God’s transforming power much earlier? And what would the Church say happened to me during this incredible, life-transforming experience? Thanks for any light you can shed on this for me…
Thanks for asking the question because Baptism is fascinating to me, and I enjoy the discussion. I would, Catholics would say, that the “born again” experience you had as an adult was real and deep and life-transforming. Generally Catholics don’t think that Christ cannot be found in Protestant Churches, Christ can be found when we seek Him. We just believe that the fullness of the faith can be found in the Catholic Church. Before Jesus, The Jewish people used ritural cleansing. I’m sure you have read this in Scripture. It was a sign but was not affectual in that it didn’t instill the grace of the Holy Spirit, the trinity, upon the recipient. John the Baptist was unable to give an affectual sign, in his prophetic words he said " I Baptize you with water for repentance but one who is more powerful than I is coming… He will Baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire. Some may read this and say “so that means we don’t need a water Baptism.” Jesus teaches this by example. John the Baptist said he was unworthy, but Jesus wanted the sacrament of Baptism for us and when He was Baptized something wonderful happened. "…suddenly the heavens were opened to him and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said ‘This is my son, with whom I am well pleased.’ Matt 3:11-17 The Baptism of our Savior forever changed it from only a sign of faith to an affectual sign. The Catholic sacrament of Baptism in the name of the Trinity with water, transmits the power and grace of the Holy Spirit. It washes away sins and saves, just as Noah’s obedience to the will of God saved him in the flood and the waters washed away the sin of the world, just as Moses’s obeidience to God’s Will when he put his staff into the red sea parted the waters and saved the lives of the Jews only to wash away the evil pharoh and soldiers. Baptism washes away origional sin, transmitted to us by our first parents because of their disobedience, we are born with the same desire for selfishness and disobedience, to be our own “gods”, have our own glory.
 
continued:

Baptism cleanes our souls, welcomes God into our lives, and brings us into the family of God, we become his children, harolding our journey in our relationship with Him. Baptism also washes away actual sins which we intend to commit. Why Baptise a baby? Whole households were Baptised in St. Paul’s letters it says nothing about an age requirement. The Grace from Baptism can be intentionally blocked if the recipient doesn’t want it, a baby is not capable of blocking this Grace. Baptism doesn’t prevent us from sinning after Baptism, we are on a lifetime journey as God’s children. Parents and the community have a responsiblity to teach the child in the Faith. We are all on a constant conversion process. God isn’t finished with any of us yet. I can honestly say that my entire life I have felt the Holy Spirit guiding me, God calling me to strive for goodness, a holy life. Have I fallen down and needed to repair my relationship with God? at times. I went through a conversion process as a child, another one as a teenager , and a strong and powerful adult conversion, probably much like the one you have had as an adult. Much of this I attribute to being blessed with a community who taught me the Faith and was authentic and loving, helping me on my journey. Our relationship with Christ transforms with our level of maturity, Salvation is for the newborn baby as well as the fallen adult child who has hit rock bottom. This is why Jesus also gave us the Sacrament of Reconcilliation. Baptism is the beginning of a beautiful relationship and journey with God.

As to why you didn’t feel a sense of Christ after your Baptism, there might be many reasons. I don’t know what denomination it was, but the Catholic Church believes in one Baptism, so as long as it was a baptism with water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it would be considered a valid Christian Baptism. There are also rare cases where a person could have Baptism by desire such as a case where an unbaptised person becomes a martyr before he could receive Baptism.

It isn’t that Christ can’t be found in protestant churches. The full deposit of the Church that Christ established continues to be held intact by the Catholic Church. Because of this, the Church still has all the Sacraments Christ established to Give us His Grace. Can Grace be found in other ways? In many cases, Yes. The sacraments are a wonderful and beautiful way to obtain Grace. How lovely it is that God would use all our senses to touch our souls, to give us visual and affectual signs to assure us of our forvigeness, whether it be the waters of Baptism or the sign of absolution from the priest at the end of a good, heart felt confession, God is showing our human eyes, letting us tase and see the goodness of the lord,and hearing His Word. In the Protestant tradition, Baptism and communion, baptism and communion are only signs of faith, but do not give Grace. To the Catholic, Christ transformed these signs into affectual signs that affect our souls with His Grace, otherwise they would still be like the old Testament signs, before Christ.
I highly recommend Sacraments in Scripture by Tim Lahaye. It is an easy read, and shows the Scriptural basis of the Sacraments.
 
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Peace-bwu:
continued:

I highly recommend Sacraments in Scripture by Tim Lahaye. It is an easy read, and shows the Scriptural basis of the Sacraments.
:eek: What??? Tim Lahaye actually wrote a favorable piece about the Sacraments? Is this the same Tim Lahaye I know???
:ehh:
 
Peace-BWU and INRI,

Thanks for your replies. I asked the moderator to remove my original post because I felt it was not on-topic for this thread. I would like to post it again later under its own thread.

I haven’t had time to give your replies the consideration they deserve as yet (and I’m on my way out the door in a few minutes), but I will. I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for taking the time and trouble to reply.

Have a great day!

bajolyn
 
Non denominationalism is simply the logical end point of the Protestant Reformation. When a person says, “I am non denominational”, what they are, in fact, saying is, “I am my own church.” They therefore can pick and choose from a huge smorgasboard of beliefs only those things that they happen to agree with and those things that do not inconvenience them. It is getting right back to the first sin, the sin of Adam - pride! The person makes themself the arbiter of what is true and not true. And don’t let them use the cop out that their beliefs are determined only by Scripture. Who interprets the Scripture? Why they do of course!
 
The logical conclusion of the runaway cart of Protestantism is not that the churches get more and more fractured and less and less defined, it is that the faithful, in their restless enterprise of self-centering religion, will want to be more and more in the spotlight. Confusing? Let me chart it out:

Original Christian faithful becomes “enlightened” and “free” Christian faithful becomes sentimental, individualistic Christian faithful becomes own god.

Don’t agree with me? Look at the DaVinci Code. Just about everyone in that kooky book gets to be a god or goddess. Think I am exaggerating? To a large extent, THIS HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.

(I mentioned this before) No Protestantism = no abortion industry. Remember that Monty Python movie (also a skit) where they make fun of Catholics by showing a run-down home full of dirty poor children? The father goes on and on how the darn world is just going to explode with people just cause the pope won’t let him wear a condom. Funny, huh? The real tragedy here is that the idea of chastity is so far from the minds of the writers, that it isn’t even conceivable.

Why not? It wasn’t an impossibility before! The moment people started using birth control, the very idea of chastity went out the window. So now we live in a country that can put men on the moon but the vast majority of the population think it is impossible to be both married AND chaste! (M-word) and pornography are now considered “healthy” expression and a proper way to vent pent-up feelings.

What a lie! Even (m-word) is a GRAVE SIN! Why can’t we even think of being as virtuous as past (Catholic) Christians! Face it folks, if every so-called Christian today lived their sex life in accordance with Church teachings, you would have no Planned Parenthood abortion industry. The pro-aborts are always crying foul that the religious right has a double standard and as far as Protestants and non-obedient Catholics are concerned, they are right (though this does not justify their crime of supporting abortion).

Why did Protestant culture give in and create this mess? Because it feels GOOD? Because it is healthy to just follow your bliss? Because the SWEDES will call us puritans? Whatever the “pressure” it is clear that at the center of this is the understanding that SELF is MORE IMPORTANT than God’s will and that my friends is why God gave us the Ten Commandments – self before God is a form of idolatry.

In its very short existence, Protestantism has actively sought to spread lies about the Catholic Church, impose pointless restrictions on scientific progress while giving in to abominations like embryonic stem-cell research, and started the abortion holocaust. The trail of blood leads right to their door. More martyrs this century than the Crusades and Inquisitions combined!

They eschew the answers given them by Catholicism while scratching theirs heads on how they will reinvent their own faith in the image of Brittany Spears! Where is God!? Where is God in reclining movie-theater-style seats with cup-holders and giant video screens featuring some copper-toned man with a $50 hair do and $500 gold Rolex watch espousing his own spiritual purity and casting dark shadows on his buzz-word industry of the month?! Where is God when these celebrity pastors are caught cheating on their wives with starry-eyed young women and use the opportunity to pump their faithful for cash?!

And they decry the very Church Christ Himself created as the “whore of Babylon”? There wouldn’t BE Christians in any sense of the word if it were not for the care and sacrifices of Holy Mother Church. Take it from a life-long Baptist, they have NO IDEA what Catholicism is about.

As far as I’m concerned Tim LaHaye and Dan Brown might as well be the same person.
 
I agree that non-denom’s are kind of making God in their own image by picking among churches like they’re shopping for a new shirt. But, they simply don’t know any better. The Catholic church to them is nothing special. Unfortunately, the liberal nature of the Catholic Church since Vatican II hasn’t helped much in setting itself apart as something special.

Most of the “good” Catholics I know (go to church every week) believe that birth control is ok and some don’t even believe in the real presence. If Catholics don’t understand their church how can we expect anyone else to?

I’ve been a Catholic for almost two years, been going to Mass for over three years and I have never, ever, heard a homily about the evils of birth control, abortion, or euthanasia. I have never heard a homily about the FACT that the Eucharist is truly Jesus Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity. I have never heard a homily about the fact that there is a direct, authoritative, priesthood connection to Peter, the first Pope. In other words, I never hear homilies about the very things that make Catholicism unique, special and TRUE! They very things that drew me into the church and convinced me of it’s authentic nature are ignored at the pulpit.

We can’t expect non-denom’s to see Catholicism as something special when we ignore the very things that make it so.
 
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Katholikos:
Non-denominationalism is rampant individualism. The pastor is the only authority on the doctrine, morals and practices taught in his “church” – or conversely, the congregation decides what they want to believe and hires a preacher who conforms to their views.

Each “church” is adamant that what they believe is absolutely true – even though they compete and conflict with every other “church.” But they are also relativists – all other (Protestant) churches are equally true and sure paths to heaven. “But I like this one.” They belong to the school of “The only thing that matters is that we all believe in Jesus.” :whacky:
They’re long on the personality and preaching ability of the pastor and fellowshipping – and short on theology.

But they all agree on one thing: The Catholic Church is wrong.😛

JMJ Jay
 
All of them, likewise, assent to Sola Scriptura, that is, they do not believe that Christ established a Church, but rather that the Holy Spirit led men to gradually assemble a Bible which was available to the common man after the 16th century. As such, they ignore or gloss over major portions of the history of the Christian faith.

Most non denominational Christians view traditional and established Churches the way that Christians tend to view the Jewish religion…as steps in the process toward what God intends.
 
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StubbleSpark:
The logical conclusion of the runaway cart of Protestantism is not that the churches get more and more fractured and less and less defined, it is that the faithful, in their restless enterprise of self-centering religion, will want to be more and more in the spotlight. Confusing? Let me chart it out:

Original Christian faithful becomes “enlightened” and “free” Christian faithful becomes sentimental, individualistic Christian faithful becomes own god.

Don’t agree with me? Look at the DaVinci Code. Just about everyone in that kooky book gets to be a god or goddess. Think I am exaggerating? To a large extent, THIS HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.

(I mentioned this before) No Protestantism = no abortion industry. Remember that Monty Python movie (also a skit) where they make fun of Catholics by showing a run-down home full of dirty poor children? The father goes on and on how the darn world is just going to explode with people just cause the pope won’t let him wear a condom. Funny, huh? The real tragedy here is that the idea of chastity is so far from the minds of the writers, that it isn’t even conceivable.

Why not? It wasn’t an impossibility before! The moment people started using birth control, the very idea of chastity went out the window. So now we live in a country that can put men on the moon but the vast majority of the population think it is impossible to be both married AND chaste! (M-word) and pornography are now considered “healthy” expression and a proper way to vent pent-up feelings.

What a lie! Even (m-word) is a GRAVE SIN! Why can’t we even think of being as virtuous as past (Catholic) Christians! Face it folks, if every so-called Christian today lived their sex life in accordance with Church teachings, you would have no Planned Parenthood abortion industry. The pro-aborts are always crying foul that the religious right has a double standard and as far as Protestants and non-obedient Catholics are concerned, they are right (though this does not justify their crime of supporting abortion).

Why did Protestant culture give in and create this mess? Because it feels GOOD? Because it is healthy to just follow your bliss? Because the SWEDES will call us puritans? Whatever the “pressure” it is clear that at the center of this is the understanding that SELF is MORE IMPORTANT than God’s will and that my friends is why God gave us the Ten Commandments – self before God is a form of idolatry.

In its very short existence, Protestantism has actively sought to spread lies about the Catholic Church, impose pointless restrictions on scientific progress while giving in to abominations like embryonic stem-cell research, and started the abortion holocaust. The trail of blood leads right to their door. More martyrs this century than the Crusades and Inquisitions combined!

They eschew the answers given them by Catholicism while scratching theirs heads on how they will reinvent their own faith in the image of Brittany Spears! Where is God!? Where is God in reclining movie-theater-style seats with cup-holders and giant video screens featuring some copper-toned man with a $50 hair do and $500 gold Rolex watch espousing his own spiritual purity and casting dark shadows on his buzz-word industry of the month?! Where is God when these celebrity pastors are caught cheating on their wives with starry-eyed young women and use the opportunity to pump their faithful for cash?!

And they decry the very Church Christ Himself created as the “whore of Babylon”? There wouldn’t BE Christians in any sense of the word if it were not for the care and sacrifices of Holy Mother Church. Take it from a life-long Baptist, they have NO IDEA what Catholicism is about.

As far as I’m concerned Tim LaHaye and Dan Brown might as well be the same person.
:clapping: :amen:
 
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Tmaque:
In other words, I never hear homilies about the very things that make Catholicism unique, special and TRUE! They very things that drew me into the church and convinced me of it’s authentic nature are ignored at the pulpit.

We can’t expect non-denom’s to see Catholicism as something special when we ignore the very things that make it so.
Tmaque, I’m delighted that you have come home to the Catholic church and you sound like you have as much passion for the Catholic faith as I do, but I’d like to comment on what you’ve said here - typically, homilies are based on that days readings - not the traditions and beliefs that make us unique. Maybe additional educational classes might be in order to cover these things - I DO think its a good idea to have refeshers on them periodically. - you might suggest that to your priest.

Secondly, I don’t agree that Catholics “ignore” the things that make us unique - it’s just that we LIVE these things more than we TALK about them. It’s part of our lives, something we do naturally. We all might have coffee and a shower in the morning too, but we don’t TALK about it that much,see my point?

Peace,
Little Mary 🙂
 
Any comments on how to handle a non-denom who is dead-set on NOT learning more about the Catholic faith? I think this stubbornness contradicts the very idea of being non-denom. How could I get THAT message across? :banghead:
 
I have a friend who is a fallen-away Catholic (he’s now a non-denominational charismatic). While he does try to have decent discussions about the differences between the Catholic and Protestant churches, he insists that if one of my arguments isn’t found in Scripture, then it’s immediately invalid.
Furthermore, when I do cite specific chapters and verses, he counters with his interpretation, and manages to make it say exactly the opposite somehow. He then criticizes the Church’s interpretation of Scripture by saying that they have too many preconceptions. His interpretations are supposedly correct, because he prayed before reading the Bible, and let it ‘speak for itself’. While I have no qualms with this, it does seem odd that he has exactly the same beliefs as justforcatholics.org (I checked the site and saw his arguments word for word).
I just don’t like people who ignore the literal meanings of text and try using circular logic to make their point. :mad:
 
Little Mary said:
:eek: What??? Tim Lahaye actually wrote a favorable piece about the Sacraments? Is this the same Tim Lahaye I know???
:ehh:

I wondered about that too. Checked Amazon. Sacraments in Scripture by*** Tim GRAY***. Paperback $9.95.

God bless.
Whit
 
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whit:
I wondered about that too. Checked Amazon. Sacraments in Scripture by*** Tim GRAY***. Paperback $9.95.

God bless.
Whit
Yeah but their sacraments are symbolic. Big deal.
WE have grace filled, spirit filled sacraments.
Catholcism is a supernatural religion in every aspect.
 
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willard3:
I have a friend who is a fallen-away Catholic (he’s now a non-denominational charismatic). While he does try to have decent discussions about the differences between the Catholic and Protestant churches, he insists that if one of my arguments isn’t found in Scripture, then it’s immediately invalid.
Furthermore, when I do cite specific chapters and verses, he counters with his interpretation, and manages to make it say exactly the opposite somehow. He then criticizes the Church’s interpretation of Scripture by saying that they have too many preconceptions. His interpretations are supposedly correct, because he prayed before reading the Bible, and let it ‘speak for itself’. While I have no qualms with this, it does seem odd that he has exactly the same beliefs as justforcatholics.org (I checked the site and saw his arguments word for word).
I just don’t like people who ignore the literal meanings of text and try using circular logic to make their point. :mad:
Funny they sure like to take The Creation Story and Revelation literally. But Jesus seems to be speaking symbolically when he talks about baptism and the eucharist and confession etc
Its the reverse way catholics interpret the Bible we take Jesus literally when there is no reason to believe he’s speaking symbolically and leave the more symbolic filled stories as pointing to a greater truth than the literal.
 
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