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Church_Militant
Guest
Little Mary:
His courage has failed him and he won’t pursue the truth.
- Status
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whit
Guest
Hey Maccabees,
I think you’re a little mixed up here. Let me help you out. Peace-bwu had mentioned a book called “Sacraments in Scripture” by Tim Lahaye was an easy and good read for the person she was conversing with to look at.
Little Mary posted soon after that she wondered how a book by Tim Lahaye could be a good book for anyone, especially Catholics to read considering his beliefs.
I checked Amazon to see if Tim Lahaye was actually the author of that titled book and found he was not, but a person by the name of Tim GRAY is, and posted that info.
Now you have posted your comment and I wanted to get back to you that it was not Lahaye who was the author and since I had last posted, I googled and found the book is also listed on this website’s catalogue pages so it is a Catholic book and the author must know his stuff.
Hope that helps.
God bless.
Whit (sfo)
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whit
Guest
Little Mary:
Look at Pat Madrid’s site or it might be sold here on the Catholic Answers website. Pat Madrid’s site is Envoymagazine.com. Pat has a book out by the name of “Search and Rescue” and he also has a show by the same name on EWTN. He gives hints and such as to how to be an apologist. He also has a number of other good books at his site on apologetics and such. As does Catholic Answers here.
Just remeber that YOU will not change anyone’s mind. All you can do is give them a seed, a start at the truth, by answering a question. The Holy Spirit will take over from there and if the other person takes heed they will follow the Holy Spirit’s lead. It’s up to them.
I know it’s frustrating. You want to hit them “upside the haid” and get them to understand that they are missing out on the fullness of what Christ came down to earth to give them. Try to get Pat’s book or catch his program on EWTN or both. Pray to the Holy Spirit for both the words you need and the patience and charity in which to express them.
Now if you want to get an interesting comment or look back when one of them asks you to pray for something they need, just tell them sure, you will be happy to include their intentions in both your’s and your friend’s statue worshipping and vain repetition activities. And let them know that you just know their intentions will be taken care of as God wills it.
The reason I said the above is that I ran into it to the extent that a female friend who is non-denom asked me to pray for her newborn son who has a heart difficulty. I got back to her and told her I had added her and her son to my prayer intentions list and asked others to do so also and knew that many rosaries were being said on his behalf. She came back sternly and said “Please pray to God for him.” Rather than get into it I just told her they were in our prayers. She didn’t like the idea of rosaries being said and I thought it funny that she didn’t ask me to pray to God thru Jesus either but whatever. BTW. Say a prayer for Judie and David, her son for his healing if it is God’s will. Thanks. And no, I didn’t say statue worshipping, etc. but I might as well have.
I’d better get out of here before I get into more trouble. I’m sorry. I’m just in a wacky mood and can’t stop chuckling.
HTH
God bless.
Whit (sfo)
Hi Little Mary!
Look at Pat Madrid’s site or it might be sold here on the Catholic Answers website. Pat Madrid’s site is Envoymagazine.com. Pat has a book out by the name of “Search and Rescue” and he also has a show by the same name on EWTN. He gives hints and such as to how to be an apologist. He also has a number of other good books at his site on apologetics and such. As does Catholic Answers here.
Just remeber that YOU will not change anyone’s mind. All you can do is give them a seed, a start at the truth, by answering a question. The Holy Spirit will take over from there and if the other person takes heed they will follow the Holy Spirit’s lead. It’s up to them.
I know it’s frustrating. You want to hit them “upside the haid” and get them to understand that they are missing out on the fullness of what Christ came down to earth to give them. Try to get Pat’s book or catch his program on EWTN or both. Pray to the Holy Spirit for both the words you need and the patience and charity in which to express them.
Now if you want to get an interesting comment or look back when one of them asks you to pray for something they need, just tell them sure, you will be happy to include their intentions in both your’s and your friend’s statue worshipping and vain repetition activities. And let them know that you just know their intentions will be taken care of as God wills it.
The reason I said the above is that I ran into it to the extent that a female friend who is non-denom asked me to pray for her newborn son who has a heart difficulty. I got back to her and told her I had added her and her son to my prayer intentions list and asked others to do so also and knew that many rosaries were being said on his behalf. She came back sternly and said “Please pray to God for him.” Rather than get into it I just told her they were in our prayers. She didn’t like the idea of rosaries being said and I thought it funny that she didn’t ask me to pray to God thru Jesus either but whatever. BTW. Say a prayer for Judie and David, her son for his healing if it is God’s will. Thanks. And no, I didn’t say statue worshipping, etc. but I might as well have.
I’d better get out of here before I get into more trouble. I’m sorry. I’m just in a wacky mood and can’t stop chuckling.
HTH
God bless.
Whit (sfo)
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Maccabees
Guest
My post would still apply to TIm Lahaye his sacraments are symbolic to him and in the case of his communion I would agree it is crackers and grape juice nothing more.
I beleive Tim Gray is great catholic auuthor is it that TIm Gray.
And yeah that title didn’t quite mesh with LaHaye did it?
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davy39
Guest
I totally agree with you. Most of the people don’t know what they are talking about, and really don’t want to find out the truth. Most of the non-denoms are driven by two things. Money and stealing members from the mainline churches.
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Cubsfan
Guest
:clapping:
Good answer!
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Exporter
Guest
I think “Egg4Christ” wrote this. “But i don’t “Hate” the idea of orgranized religion. Does it not allow for some of the freedoms that are found in an independant church? sure. But you’ll also find that you’re on your own as far as things like funds, preachers, programs, help with teachings. In short, a non denominational church is independant. The main goal by many non-denominational church is to avoid any corruption that may be passed down through denominations.”
Thanks for the charitable post. “Avoid corruption”. I have to ask, who is it amoung you (nondenoms) decides what was/is corrupted? Isn’t it the Pastor? And what action is taken, and by who?
Where do the Pastors of the nondenom Churches come from? How do the nondenom Churches name themselves? It certainly wouldn’t be “St Mary, Star of the Sea” or “Our Lady of the Lake”.
You seem to be a rational poster so may I ask from what organised religion did you come from?
Thanks for the charitable post. “Avoid corruption”. I have to ask, who is it amoung you (nondenoms) decides what was/is corrupted? Isn’t it the Pastor? And what action is taken, and by who?
Where do the Pastors of the nondenom Churches come from? How do the nondenom Churches name themselves? It certainly wouldn’t be “St Mary, Star of the Sea” or “Our Lady of the Lake”.
You seem to be a rational poster so may I ask from what organised religion did you come from?
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Bleevrz3_16
Guest
Hi everyone
Boy you sure are harsh here arent you? I belong to a Nondenominational church and we are nothing like what has been said on this forum, we try very hard to let the word of God lead us. Anyway I just came in here to learn more about Catholisism. I will not do as you have done and throw all Catholics in the same mold as you have done with Nondenominational churches. I hope I can learn more about your church on this website.
Thanks and God bless.
Boy you sure are harsh here arent you? I belong to a Nondenominational church and we are nothing like what has been said on this forum, we try very hard to let the word of God lead us. Anyway I just came in here to learn more about Catholisism. I will not do as you have done and throw all Catholics in the same mold as you have done with Nondenominational churches. I hope I can learn more about your church on this website.
Thanks and God bless.
B
boppysbud
Guest
Bleevrz3:16:
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS “NON-DENOMINATIONAL”.
All so called “non-denominational” churches teach “sola sciptura”, that is a Protestant, denominational idea.
All “non-denominational” churches are either really Baptist or Pentecostal or a combination of both. Baptists and Pentecostals are denominations, not “non-denominational”.
All “non-denominational” churches that I know of baptise only adults or adolescents by immersion only. That is Baptist, and Baptists are a denomination.
All “non-denominational” churches teach “gettin saved” instead of being baptised. That is Evangelical Protestant teaching…denominational.
Please do not use this term, becuase it does not exist.
Just this one quote points out the lie to “non-denominational” churches even existing.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS “NON-DENOMINATIONAL”.
All so called “non-denominational” churches teach “sola sciptura”, that is a Protestant, denominational idea.
All “non-denominational” churches are either really Baptist or Pentecostal or a combination of both. Baptists and Pentecostals are denominations, not “non-denominational”.
All “non-denominational” churches that I know of baptise only adults or adolescents by immersion only. That is Baptist, and Baptists are a denomination.
All “non-denominational” churches teach “gettin saved” instead of being baptised. That is Evangelical Protestant teaching…denominational.
Please do not use this term, becuase it does not exist.
O
oudave
Guest
Main Entry: de·nom·i·na·tion
Pronunciation: di-"nä-m&-'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : an act of denominating
2 : a value or size of a series of values or sizes (as of money)
3 : NAME, DESIGNATION; especially : a general name for a category
4 : a religious organization uniting local congregations in a single legal and administrative body
**
Perhaps if you would get off your Holyier than Thou pedistal and check into the things you post, you might make a better point.
*The reason WE can call ourselves Nondenominational is because we do not belong to a large organization of churches. *
As for "sola sciptura’’ imagine that, following the word of God instead of the changing word of man, what a novel idea.
As for Baptism, being Baptized like Christ’s example. Prove us wrong on that one. Show me in scripture where baby’s were Baptized, you can’t.
‘‘Saved’’ is mentioned in your Bible well over 100 times. I think being saved from the fires of Hell is awsome.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.
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Peace-bwu
Guest
Little Mary said:What??? Tim Lahaye actually wrote a favorable piece about the Sacraments? Is this the same Tim Lahaye I know???
:ehh:
Sorry, I was searching for the book and couldn’t find it, I made a mistake, it was Tim Gray… my big mistake!!! I found the book today and thought I better clear that up! I was distracted by my little ones that day, I was online during “quiet time”
Sacraments in Scripture by Tim GRAY
so sorry!!!:bigyikes:
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Coptic
Guest
Dave,
A few comments regarding your views on Baptism:
*
Show me in scripture where it says one must wait until an age of recognition, or understanding, you can’t.
Show me in scripture evidence of a parent waiting to baptize their infant, you can’t.
Feel free to research what the other Early Church Fathers and the first Churches taught and practiced. You can take a look at my church–the Coptic Orthodox Church which was founded by St. Mark the Apostle–which has always practiced infant baptism–wow, I hope St. Mark didn’t teach us the wrong thing
(Most of the info from this post is from here:
goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7067.asp
It’s an article from a man who did not believe in infant baptism and decided to do his own research. It’s worth reading the whole thing.)
God Bless,
Elizabeth
*
A few comments regarding your views on Baptism:
*
Show me in scripture where it says not to Baptize a baby, you can’t.
Show me in scripture where it says one must wait until an age of recognition, or understanding, you can’t.
Show me in scripture evidence of a parent waiting to baptize their infant, you can’t.
- The Bible speaks of “households” being baptized–do you really think these households were all void of any child/infant?
- Polycarp(died in 168AD) --a disciple of St. John the Apostle, stated at his martyrdom that he was a Christian for 86 years–which is believed to be his approximate age at death, meaning he must have been baptized as an infant.
- Justin Martyr gives still another testimony to the practice of infant baptism by stating that many old men and women of sixty and seventy years of age had been disciples of Christ from childhood.
- Hippolytus’ (170-236 A.D.) perception of infant baptism is clear and straightforward as well:
Feel free to research what the other Early Church Fathers and the first Churches taught and practiced. You can take a look at my church–the Coptic Orthodox Church which was founded by St. Mark the Apostle–which has always practiced infant baptism–wow, I hope St. Mark didn’t teach us the wrong thing
(Most of the info from this post is from here:
goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7067.asp
It’s an article from a man who did not believe in infant baptism and decided to do his own research. It’s worth reading the whole thing.)
God Bless,
Elizabeth
*
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Peace-bwu
Guest
Little Mary:
How could you get that message across? My advice would be the advice a close Catholic friend gave to me when it came to me realizing that I had to let my nondenomonational friend drift away. “Pray that she sees the truth present in the Catholic Church” not necessarily for a conversion, but that she will find Truth."
My personal experience has taught me that if the Holy Spirit wants us to witness, it will be made possible, otherwise it is not the will of God at that given time, but our own will. God isn’t finished with any of us yet, and He has a plan. My friend stopped calling and returning my calls, so I had to let go. You can’t force a friendship, no matter how lovingly, just like you can’t force a conversion.
The worst is when someone asks a question about the Catholic faith and it becomes clear that they are not actually listening because they are too busy trying to save the poor mislead Catholic.
How could you get that message across? My advice would be the advice a close Catholic friend gave to me when it came to me realizing that I had to let my nondenomonational friend drift away. “Pray that she sees the truth present in the Catholic Church” not necessarily for a conversion, but that she will find Truth."
My personal experience has taught me that if the Holy Spirit wants us to witness, it will be made possible, otherwise it is not the will of God at that given time, but our own will. God isn’t finished with any of us yet, and He has a plan. My friend stopped calling and returning my calls, so I had to let go. You can’t force a friendship, no matter how lovingly, just like you can’t force a conversion.
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boppysbud
Guest
If it walks and teaches “sola scriptura” like a Protestant Evangelical Baptist/Pentecostal denomination. If it teaches “gettin saved”, that baptism is merely a symbol and for adults only even though it really does nothing, if it teaches that the sacraments are only two in number and are only symbolic, if it worships like a Protestant Evangelical Baptist/Pentecostal denomination … then it is a Protestant Evangelical Baptist/Pentecostal denomination.
No matter what it calls itself, Dave.
I was raised in a Protestant/Fundamentalist denomination, that calls itself “undenominational”, the one and only church that Christ has, containing the only people going to heaven, the only Christians. This denomination is a denomination even though they object to beng called such. They have definately Protestant/Fundamentalist dogma, and they never existed before 1906, yet they still consider themselves to be the only Church contianing the only Christians. They also call themselves “undenominational”. Guess what absolutely no one but the members of this sect believe any of that junk, even other Protestant/Fundamentalist denominationalists. Who USUALLY admit that they are members of denominations, and are proud to affirm that they are Protestants and Fundamentalists.
No matter what it calls itself, Dave.
I was raised in a Protestant/Fundamentalist denomination, that calls itself “undenominational”, the one and only church that Christ has, containing the only people going to heaven, the only Christians. This denomination is a denomination even though they object to beng called such. They have definately Protestant/Fundamentalist dogma, and they never existed before 1906, yet they still consider themselves to be the only Church contianing the only Christians. They also call themselves “undenominational”. Guess what absolutely no one but the members of this sect believe any of that junk, even other Protestant/Fundamentalist denominationalists. Who USUALLY admit that they are members of denominations, and are proud to affirm that they are Protestants and Fundamentalists.
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Maccabees
Guest
lets just clear this up its a non-denominational denomination founded by the non-denominational pastor who is the founder of his denomination.:whacky:
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Peace-bwu
Guest
Bleevrz3:16:
For the most part you* can* put us all in the same mold, as we are to follow the same church established by Christ and be a part of the Body of Christ, with our own individual gifts and talents.
You will find Catholics who are immature in their faith and understanding of Catholic doctrine because they have not been properly taught, or you may encounter someone with mental illness who makes religion their obsession. You will sometimes encounter the blatent heretic, such as John Kerry who publicly opposes the church on 2,000yrs of moral teaching (or longer if you include the Jewish Tradition) claiming he understands Catholic doctrine and practices his Cathoic Faith, yet votes for Abortion anyway is an example of heresy.
Sure, you will find what I call “salad bar” Catholics, but for the most part we are supposed to fit the same mold, the mold is just large enough to include people from all ages, talents and walks of life who choose to take up the Cross of Jesus and follow Him. One of the great things about the Catholic Church is consistency in moral teaching stemming from Apostolic Tradition, and we are all supposed to follow it. Catholics are supposed to follow the Will of God so that He can tranform us to"fit the mold."
Again, I hope I’m not coming across as being too harsh. I try to be fair and honest. If I can help in any way let me know. I enjoy apologetics and can never get enough Scripture, as most people on this site do. Sometimes you might catch someone on a bad day, but for the most part this is a good place to be. I usually avoid the threads that become totally negative and wander from the intelligent dialogue.
there are also a few members who are consistently negative which I choose to ignore.
Peace Be With You !
Sorry if some of us sound uncharitable. I know that I sometimes vent my frustrations with being attacked for my Catholic faith on this site. It is less frustrating when a Protestant actually understands what he/she is “protesting” rather than jumping on the “Pointing the finger at the whore of Babylon bandwagon” Thank you for being on this site, I am glad you are here.
For the most part you* can* put us all in the same mold, as we are to follow the same church established by Christ and be a part of the Body of Christ, with our own individual gifts and talents.
You will find Catholics who are immature in their faith and understanding of Catholic doctrine because they have not been properly taught, or you may encounter someone with mental illness who makes religion their obsession. You will sometimes encounter the blatent heretic, such as John Kerry who publicly opposes the church on 2,000yrs of moral teaching (or longer if you include the Jewish Tradition) claiming he understands Catholic doctrine and practices his Cathoic Faith, yet votes for Abortion anyway is an example of heresy.
Sure, you will find what I call “salad bar” Catholics, but for the most part we are supposed to fit the same mold, the mold is just large enough to include people from all ages, talents and walks of life who choose to take up the Cross of Jesus and follow Him. One of the great things about the Catholic Church is consistency in moral teaching stemming from Apostolic Tradition, and we are all supposed to follow it. Catholics are supposed to follow the Will of God so that He can tranform us to"fit the mold."
Again, I hope I’m not coming across as being too harsh. I try to be fair and honest. If I can help in any way let me know. I enjoy apologetics and can never get enough Scripture, as most people on this site do. Sometimes you might catch someone on a bad day, but for the most part this is a good place to be. I usually avoid the threads that become totally negative and wander from the intelligent dialogue.
there are also a few members who are consistently negative which I choose to ignore.Peace Be With You !
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INRI
Guest
*Oudave,
Sola scriptura was a novel idea - of the 16th century. There is no history of it prior to then. You should know better than to throw that idea out there and not expect to get it stomped on.
Tell me what the word of God means. The word of God as interpreted by you? By your pastor? By the Lutheran minister down the street? By the Southern Baptist Convention? By the pope? Isn’t it clear that we all approach scripture through different lenses, filtering the phrases through our overall worldview? You read it and the meaning seems obvious to you what a certain passage means, but how can you be sure you know what the passage really means? Do you know ancient Greek? Aramaic? How familiar are you really with the culture of 1st century Palestine? Would you recognize certain turns of phrases and deliberate parallels made by the authors of sacred scripture, in a different language, in a different country, in a different time?
Let’s take John 6. How do you interpret the phrase “This is my body…”? You would probably respond that it is merely symbolic, but have you ever read, with an open mind, a full explanation that interprets this phrase as literal? You have merely passed this phrase through your Protestant non-denominational lenses. How would you then explain St. Paul later saying “Wherefore whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.” (1 Cor. 11:27). Does this make any sense if St. Paul is talking of a symbol? As Catholics, we don’t have to re-invent the wheel every couple of years when interpreting scripture. We go back to what the early Christians actually wrote and said about Jesus and the Church because they knew the language, and they lived in the culture. Perhaps it might shock you that they were also non-denominational - because there was only one Church throughout the world, and it was the Catholic Church.
You’re begging the question. You assume that all of Christianity MUST be described in the bible. You assume sola scriptura, yet you have not proven it. And don’t go throwing out 2 Timothy 3:16-17 ether, we already know how to respond to that. Admit that scripture doesn’t definitively and unambiguously endorse baptizing ONLY adults or baptizing of infants and lets move on. What did the early Church do? They baptized infants.
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INRI
Guest
‘‘Saved’’ is mentioned in your Bible well over 100 times. I think being saved from the fires of Hell is awsome.
*
If you are referring to the doctrine of eternal security, better not advance that idea in mixed company. One of your fellow “non-denoms” may challenge you on that one, not to mention all the following passages from the Bible that you claim to go on that argue against eternal security: Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21, Rom. 11:17-24. Matt. 7:2-23, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, Luke 8:13, Philippians 2:12, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46. Sorry, try again.
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Peace-bwu
Guest
Scripture does not say “Do not Baptize babies” The new testament clearly speaks of entire families being baptized. It doesn’t give an age limit or anything else. Are babies and mentally dimished people unworthy of Baptism, then? Scripture clearly states the salvific qualities of Baptism. Christ ministered to all people which is why He established the Sacraments to “meet us” at our individual level maturity level, as I stated before, from the newborn infant to the 40 yr old Theology Professor, to the 90 yr-old man on his deathbed. Baptism is the beginning of a beautiful relationship with God, as His children. The Early Church Fathers did not include every detail about the Church in Scripture, which is why we look at the full deposit of Apostolic Tradition to understand Scripture such as the Didache. They assumed it would be passed down, and could not have known that the Scriptre that was finally written down and compiled would be changed and whole books would be removed 1,500 yrs. later, as a result of the Protestant Reformation. So, my suggestion to you is to do a little investigation into first and second century Church Fathers who wrote about Baptism. Since Christ directly taught them, the early Apostles and their converts and early Church Fathers would know more than we. I am sure you can find alot of good threads to answer this question on the “Sacraments” forum.
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Mickey
Guest
Hi Peace-bwt,Scripture does not say “Do not Baptize babies” The new testament clearly speaks of entire families being baptized. It doesn’t give an age limit or anything else. Are babies and mentally dimished people unworthy of Baptism, then? Scripture clearly states the salvific qualities of Baptism. Christ ministered to all people which is why He established the Sacraments to “meet us” at our individual level maturity level, as I stated before, from the newborn infant to the 40 yr old Theology Professor, to the 90 yr-old man on his deathbed. Baptism is the beginning of a beautiful relationship with God, as His children. The Early Church Fathers did not include every detail about the Church in Scripture, which is why we look at the full deposit of Apostolic Tradition to understand Scripture such as the Didache. They assumed it would be passed down, and could not have known that the Scriptre that was finally written down and compiled would be changed and whole books would be removed 1,500 yrs. later, as a result of the Protestant Reformation. So, my suggestion to you is to do a little investigation into first and second century Church Fathers who wrote about Baptism. Since Christ directly taught them, the early Apostles and their converts and early Church Fathers would know more than we. I am sure you can find alot of good threads to answer this question on the “Sacraments” forum.
Excellent post! Numerous times, the sacrament of infant baptism has been beautifully interpreted for Dave. Yet over and over and over again, he says, “prove to me in the Bible where babies were baptized, you can’t!” I really don’t think he reads the Catholic responses. Are we wasting our time talking to Dave? I don’t know.
- Status