A Fornicator and the use of Condoms

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DaMaMaXiMuS

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Greetings and Peace unto you All,

Here’s the situation that’s come up this past weekened. A close friend of mine, which is like a brother to me, confided some disturbing things to me. Mind you my friend is not a Catholic, he used to be in the same religion I was in prior to starting on my journey of being a Catholic. After the church we were a part of practically fell apart, he became one of those members who just let himself go back into the world and has had no regard for God and doing righteousness. We don’t see one another as often as we used so I know that the majority of enfluences around him are of the negative nature.

He told me that he met a women the week before and that they went out a few days later. Aparently, this was all based on lust because they ended up sleeping together on that last date. My friend knows it wrong to be sleeping around, and I’ve explained to him the matter of having sex outside of marriage. But, quite honestly his weakeness are much more stronger than his strengths. He told how he keeps doing the same thing over and over.

As I understand it he told me that the women called him recently and tells him that she was diagnosed with climitia. She told to him that he should go get checked out. He went and I think he’s in the clear. Talk about dogging a bullet. But I told him, “what if it would have been AIDS or something else that could kill you or something you wouldn’t be able to get rid off?” Obviously, he didn’t have anything to say. I told him you have to stop committing fornication, if you keep it up your bound to run out of luck.

I started including him in my prayers, I really wish he can find the True Christ and his True teaching. I’ve told him that I’ve been learning and practicing the Catholic faith. It shocked him since in the religion we used to belong to, we held the Catholic Church in utter disdain. And probably before we joined the religion, we had hatred for the Church. But I began to tell him how I’ve been looking at the Catholic chuch with an open mind and with unbiased eyes. And many things I thought I knew about the church were wrong and that whatever it is I began to learn didn’t seem outrageuos or unreasonable.

He basically said that usually me and him are on the same page when it comes to these things, but that on this one he couldn’t say the same and that its something he has to look at closely. To which I said, well that’s what you should do, but do it with an open mind and with no prejudice. I pray the LORD opens the door of faith for him.

Nonetheless, because of this situation involving my friend I began to think on somethings. And what I wanted to know is if a person is in the midst of fonication, as is my friend (sleeping around), as Catholics we know he is in the midst of mortal sin. Would I be wrong in telling him that if he’s not going to repent of these sins, he should use a condom to try and prevent as best as possible from contracting a disease or even impregnating some women he has a one night stand with?

I didn’t tell him nothing of the kind, but it just made me think. I know the use of condoms within marriage is wrong, I know sex outside of marriage is wrong. But should we be telling people who are overcome by sin or have no desire to serve God, not to use condoms when we know that their having sex with multiple parnter?

I don’t know. Neither do I want to encourage illict conduct by telling someone, “well if your going to have sex outside of marriage, then at least use a condom.” I can just see people interpreting that to mean it’s ok to have sex outside of marriage, with multiple partners, etc.

But then again their already in the midst of mortal sin, so would it be sound advice to tell them, “well then you better use a condom.”? Is this instead just adding sin upon sin? Is it a case of two wrongs don’t make a right? Or is it possibly perseving someone’s life by not contracting something with the hopes that there’ll be a conversion down the road somewhere? And I realize that no protection is 100% full proof other than abstinence. So I fully understand that something can go wrong and a person can still contract something or get a women pregnant from a one night stand. But I’m very troubled by my friends situation.

So if anyone can provide some insight on this issue and also Catholic Church Teachings on the matter.

Thanks you all.

God Bless You All,

Nelson
 
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DaMaMaXiMuS:
So if anyone can provide some insight on this issue and also Catholic Church Teachings on the matter.
When this question has come up in the past, no one was able to cite any magisterial teaching on the issue of the use of contraception outside of marriage. So I believe this is one situation in which faithful Catholics can hold either position.
 
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Catholic2003:
When this question has come up in the past, no one was able to cite any magisterial teaching on the issue of the use of contraception outside of marriage. So I believe this is one situation in which faithful Catholics can hold either position.
We don’t take positions on how best to sin. We just say don’t sin.
 
I’ll put my head out there and answer what I think. I also haven’t heard any definitive church teaching on contraception outside of marriage. From a practical standpoint, I think that if your friend is goint to have sex outside marriage, especially with women he doesn’t really know and has no level of commitment with, it’s better to use contraception than to impregnate these women and bring a child into such a sordid situation.
 
Advising him to sin, whether his belief or not, is wrong. If you are Catholic, you should not be advising him to do something you know is wrong. I know it is hard but do you really think that God has a little book that tells him what doctrine you subscribe to before he makes judgement? I can see it now…Hmmmm John I see here that you did not allow me control over life, wait after crossreferencing it I see you are a protestant…it’s ok…go on into heaven… Some how I don’t see it that way. I think as a friend you should counsel your friend that if he held sex for marriage only, he would not have to face such possible consequences. You may even let your friend know that it is a wonderful gift to give a spouse on his wedding night…the gift of remaining chaste until marriage assures that she won’t have to say, honey, I went to the doctor today and I think you should go too…
 
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Catholic2003:
When this question has come up in the past, no one was able to cite any magisterial teaching on the issue of the use of contraception outside of marriage. So I believe this is one situation in which faithful Catholics can hold either position.
No, it is quite clear. You don’t have sex outside of marriage, period.

“The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.” (Catholic Catechism 2352)
 
Dear Nelson,
Congratulations on your current journey and may the Lord bless you in your concern and prayer for your friend!

Now in answer to your particulars. As a life-long Catholic I was confronted with that scenario from friends many times, both in reality and hypothetically. I discovered a few things that I hope might help you.

First off, the condoms discussion with your friend is really just adding more noise and static. It is one of the reasons contraception is intrinsically evil. Since they exist they are in the conversation, but are really quite useless to discuss. What it is really about is the state of his soul. It is the fornication that is at root. We will get nowhere promoting abstinence if we continually fall back on ‘well if you are going to anyway…’ I am not claiming to know anyone’s personal state of sin, I am saying that we are wasting our time dividing our time between fornication vs. condoms.

Secondly, I found in my own sordid past that it was (for me personally) discussions about ‘well if they are going to do it anyway…’ that nearly got me lost on my Catholic journey. I found that if I said it to someone else that it might be better to use condoms in their particular case that I started to believe it too. What I mean to say is that contraception crept into my own thoughts and eventually my own life because it was ‘right for someone else.’

You said something about your friend mentioning that you were “usually on the same page…but aren’t this time.” What the discussions with your friend are about is the state of his soul through his fornication. I think you are on the same page and he is just muddying the waters to take the focus off of himself. Unless the breakdown of your former church caused him to lose all his morality, then he still does believe there is something wrong with his current behavior.

I would, from experience, focus on statements like, ‘You do remember this is how diseases are spread don’t you?’ and ‘Even condoms won’t keep you safe.’ or ‘Sex makes babies no matter how many people try to tell you it won’t.’ and the most important one, ‘What is the real purpose of sex? Isn’t it about love and marriage?’

I don’t know if you just wanted to know the Catholic teaching on this or if you wanted other ideas for helping your friend too, so I hope it was worth the read either way. Let us know if you need other ammo to help your cause. We have an arsenal at your disposal. 😉
 
Put it into different terms.

Don’t drink and drive…but if you do, wear a seatbelt!

Don’t use heroin…but if you do, use a new syringe!

Don’t have an abortion…but if you do, insist they anesthetise the baby.

Etc… You got it?
 
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gilliam:
No, it is quite clear. You don’t have sex outside of marriage, period.
I was referring to the multiple-choice question of whether fornication with condoms was (more sinful, less sinful, exactly the same sinfulness) as fornication without using condoms. Certainly, both are mortal sins that will condemn you to hell.
 
Eileen T:
Don’t use heroin…but if you do, use a new syringe!
I know people whose lives have been saved from this one (in the sense of not getting AIDS like their friends who shared needles).

And I’m sure there are fornicators whose lives have been saved (in the sense of not getting AIDS during their fornication) by the advice to use condoms.

Is there some moral problem with saving the lives of sinners that I’m unaware of?
 
Well the basic problem is that if they are not going to listen to the Church on fornication, why on earth would they listen to it on contraceptives? This is why it is waste of time answering such scenarios.
Is there some moral problem with saving the lives of sinners that I’m unaware of?
They are trying to save their lives (and their souls btw) by telling them not to fornicate. The Church can no more advise somone how to fornicate any more than an appliance manufacturer can tell you how to safely use your toaster in the bathtub. When someone is determined to use something for other than it was designed for, they are on their own.

Scott
 
Let all the crazies who think fornication is OK tell him to use a condom. He’s heard it a million times anyway, and he’ll think twice after the chlamydia scare.

You must focus on telling him the TRUTH.
 
And I’m sure there are fornicators whose lives have been saved (in the sense of not getting AIDS during their fornication) by the advice to use condoms.

Is there some moral problem with saving the lives of sinners that I’m unaware of?

Condoms don’t prevent AIDS. If you want proof look at Africa which has the highest rate of AIDS and condom use. Only Uganda which practices ABC’s has a declining precentage of infection. Abstinance, Be Faithful, and last resort condom (usually in the sex trade).
Your friend could be helped by reading books about the Theology of the Body. Christopher West, Theology of the Body for Beginners. This is not only for Catholic’s but for the World. It talks about the want to treat people with dignity. Respecting the body as a gift from God to be a gift to our spouse.
I wish that I had had a copy of the Theology of the Body before I made the mistake of abusing my sexuality. If I could convince others not to do so I would try with all my might.
 
What is it about the use of contraceptives that make them immoral? It isn’t their actual substance, as both condoms and surgical gloves are made with latex. Thus, it must be the way in which an object is used which causes it to be immoral.

Why then is the use of an object as a contraceptive immoral? Is it because it distorts the meaning of the sexual act, which is inherently ordered towards procreation, regardless of whether it occurs in the context of marriage? Or is it because it distorts the meaning of conjugal love as expressed in the sexual act, which can only be conjugal love within marriage?
 
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Prometheum_x:
Why then is the use of an object as a contraceptive immoral? Is it because it distorts the meaning of the sexual act, which is inherently ordered towards procreation, regardless of whether it occurs in the context of marriage? Or is it because it distorts the meaning of conjugal love as expressed in the sexual act, which can only be conjugal love within marriage?
This is a better way of asking the underlying question here. Hopefully one that is less emotionally charged.

My original point was only that faithful Catholics can and do have different answers to it.
 
It is my understanding that the church has opposed condom distribution and education programs based on telling people that condoms reduce the risk of disease transmission.

I think it is because it is a foothold for rationalization. If you tell someone, well if you are going to do it, at least use this condom, you are giving that person a psychological out. He can say to himself, well it is wrong, but at least I’ve been responsible enough to use this thing…

In the end, I would contend that telling him to use the condom makes him LESS safe. The reason is that he will then THINK he is safe and rely totally on that condom. Thus, he may fornicate MORE often or with riskier women…

Besides, unless he’s illiterate and lives in a cave, he’s heard this a bazillion times anyways.

P.S. This is the same psychological effect of building a weak levee. MORE people die. Nobody lives below sea level without a levee. But give them a fragile pile of dirt that protects them from your run-of-the-mill storm and they will believe they are safe. In reality, they are not safe. Read the news lately?
 
The heart of this discussion boils down to this:

Which “life” are you trying to save?

His temporal earthly life (condom use)?
OR
His eternal life? (Truth - and no compromising with it)

All else is irrelavant.
 
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DaMaMaXiMuS:
Nonetheless, because of this situation involving my friend I began to think on somethings. And what I wanted to know is if a person is in the midst of fonication, as is my friend (sleeping around), as Catholics we know he is in the midst of mortal sin. Would I be wrong in telling him that if he’s not going to repent of these sins, he should use a condom to try and prevent as best as possible from contracting a disease or even impregnating some women he has a one night stand with?
Yes. It would be wrong for you to say that. I implore you not to say that. Your witness when you say that then becomes a witness of contradiction. If you have said that already, in humility approach your friend and confess to him that you were wrong, I beg you. The truth is not a deal to be negotiated. The essence of your words if you were to say that is: “Well, if you are going to sin, sin more.” But the reality is this: all sin is death. Sin upon sin is death upon death.

In fact, it would be far worse for him to sleep around and prevent the creative hand of God than for him to sleep around and preserve his own health. Sin in and of itself is self-destructive. He sacrifices his own spiritual health anyway if he sleeps around. But God has a divine plan for the cosmos. If he contracepts, he prevents God from creating. Why do you think God struck Onan down when he wasted his seed on the ground in Genesis 38? God wanted to create through him. Perhaps it wasn’t most convenient for Onan to raise up sons for his deceased brother. Maybe he would rather just experience the pleasure of sex. But thousands of years after the event, and in 2005, there are no children through Onan. I have heard that everyone on the Earth is at least 52nd cousins or closer. Contracepting kills generations before they are even born. There is nonexistence where there should be existence. To contracept is to strike the almighty and perfect will of the Father, with whom we cooperate in creation.

What authority do we have as creatures to decide that creation is inconvenient for our created reality, since everything we have that is good has its source in God’s boundless generosity? Why is our existence as a creature of greater value than the DIVINE plan to bring another into existence? Pleasure is a gift from God in sex. Pleasure is not the final end, the purpose, of sex. We must be cooperators in the divine will. It would be better for your friend to get gonnorhea, syphillis, AIDS, genital warts, herpes, AND father 10 “unwanted” children than for your friend to alter the future of the cosmos by preventing God from creating. WE ARE created in the image and likeness of the Eternal Triune God. WE ARE the instruments of the Lord. WE ARE the agents of Divine Will, spreading the Good News of Christ to the ends of the earth. God works his will on the earth through people who give themselves to him. Each creation is necessary. Each creation is willed. Each of us has an invaluable role to play. No child is an “accident.”

I beg you, DO NOT apologize for the Church’s teaching on contraception. Stand firm and be convicted that it is the immutable unchanging truth of God. The Church’s teaching is the will and the movement of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the very author of Church teaching.

Pray that you will come to a better understanding of the Church’s teaching of contraception, and defend it with all your might, especially for the sake of dissenting Catholics who have become the main obstacle to the spreading of this truth.
 
Having sex outside of marriage (fornication or adultery) is mortally sinful.

Using contraceptives is mortally sinful.

If you advise your friend to use a condom if he is going to fornicate, you are advising him to commit yet another mortal sin.

So, if he only fornicates, and dies unrepentant, he goes to Hell. So, what’s wrong with him committing another mortal sin - he’s going to Hell anyway, right? No big deal!

Wrong! Just as there are different levels in Heaven (those who gain more merit - by their holiness - are capable of more happiness in Heaven), there are also different levels in Hell - more horrible punishment.

We can never do evil that good might result - it is evil to use contraceptives. It is good to save a life. BUT - we cannot recommend contraceptives to possibly save that life.

Why is it so difficult to grasp for so many? Is it that we just do not want to understand?
 
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LovedOne:
The heart of this discussion boils down to this:

Which “life” are you trying to save?

His temporal earthly life (condom use)?
OR
His eternal life? (Truth - and no compromising with it)

All else is irrelavant.
Let’s not also forget that your friend is also dabbling with the very serious consequence of bringing an innocent life into this mess. Aside from threats to his own health, how does he feel about becoming the source of child support for some woman he hardly knows, or worse, being party to an abortion he has no power to strop?
 
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