A friends claims that Jesus is NOT God, how to disprove?

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I believe Jesus is God however I am having trouble explaining this to a friend. I have a dilemma with her because she doesn’t believe in any religion, all the beliefs she has she comes to on her own interpretations only from the Bible. Even though she won’t admit it, her beliefs are most closely related to Jehova Witness.
  1. The bible often speaks about Jesus as “the son of God”, she believes this means he is less then God and is totally different.
  2. Hebrews 12:2 “fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” she quoted me stating that he is sitting next to the father but still isn’t God himself. I couldn’t find anywhere online to refute this specific passage.
  3. she believes Jesus was once less than the angels and that the Jesus and Holy spirit have powers from God but that these powers can be taken away. Jesus had to work his way up to be better than the angels
  1. Jesus was not always the “the Son of God,” this is a relationship that was formed when Jesus was begotten by the Father, and took on the form of a slave/human (Hebrews 1:5.) I would ask your friend who/what was Jesus before he became man on Earth; my hint I would give her would be Genesis 1:1 & John 1:1. Notice the “In the beginning” that occurs at the beginning of each verse, this is referring to the same time before any creation took place. So, in the beginning, before creation took place, Jesus was…John 1:1
  2. Based on what you are stating your friend has a misunderstanding of what Trinitarians believe. We do not believe that Jesus/the Word of God "is the Father. To be God you must be a few things; uncreated (no beginning,) all powerful, and all knowing. When we say Jesus was and is God, we mean that based on the criteria of Jesus not being created, of being all powerful, and being all knowing, he is God. Because only God is those things, and there is only 1 God. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father, but they are separete “persons” who make up God along with the Holy Spirit.
There are 3 known natures of intelligent existence; the nature of God Almighty, the Angelic Nature, and Human Nature. We know the pre-incarnate Jesus was not Human, so scratch that one off the list. We know he was not an Angel, based on him being called God, being worshipped (even by ALL the Angels,) being prayed to, etc…What does that leave us with out of those 3 options?
  1. She is correct, that Jesus the man was lower than the Angels, Hebrews 2:6-9. It explains he was lower than the Angels because *“we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.” *Hebrews 2:9
Jesus was not lower than the Angels before becoming man, and after his perfect sacrifice, resurrection, and return back to Heaven, he was once again Greater than the Angels after fulfilling God’s mission.
 
  1. Jesus was not always the “the Son of God,” this is a relationship that was formed when Jesus was begotten by the Father, and took on the form of a slave/human (Hebrews 1:5.)
That is not true at all, Jesus is eternally the Son. The Church has always taught this and still does.
 
I believe Jesus is God however I am having trouble explaining this to a friend. I have a dilemma with her because she doesn’t believe in any religion, all the beliefs she has she comes to on her own interpretations only from the Bible. Even though she won’t admit it, her beliefs are most closely related to Jehova Witness.

Some of the beliefs she has that I would appreciate if people can help me disprove.
  1. The bible often speaks about Jesus as “the son of God”, she believes this means he is less then God and is totally different.
  2. Hebrews 12:2 “fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” she quoted me stating that he is sitting next to the father but still isn’t God himself. I couldn’t find anywhere online to refute this specific passage.
  3. she believes Jesus was once less than the angels and that the Jesus and Holy spirit have powers from God but that these powers can be taken away. Jesus had to work his way up to be better than the angels
It is hard to figure her beliefs out since I can’t really gain much of a reference point but she is a Bible ONLY beleiver so i know i can only use the bible.

Help would be appreciated! God Bless
Bad theology…bad! If Jesus is NOT God, then it would be clearly said and/or explicitly said in the NT by all the authors. And why? Because it is heretical to worship any creature. So ask her to show you in the Bible where ONE Apostle was teaching Jesus is NOT God?
 
It was mentioned that Jesus standing on the right hand of God is not literal, but symbolic of his equal power, and that is very helpful. Read Acts 7:55-60.

It is pretty clear in verse 55 and 56 that Jesus is the visible part of the Trinity which the other 2 parts are spirit or “glory” clouds.

It is also to Jesus that Stehpen said “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” and “Lord, lay not this sin at their charge.” And he fell asleep in the Lord(Jesus).

If Jesus is not God, how could Stephen ask him to receive his spirit? If the Father was right there as shown in 55 and 56, wouldn’t it be strange for him to speak to a creation rather than God about his eternal future. Who is it that we long to see in Heaven, God or a creation? God, yet he seemed to want to be with Jesus. Obviously it is more complicated than your friend and many others like JWs think.

The Church (led by the Trinity) was able to develop a better understanding of the Trinity over a couple hundred of years after Christ, but the teaching has always been there, and is still not completely fathomable by us.
 
John 8:58 Mark 14:62 - “I am”

If Jesus had merely wanted to say He existed before Abraham’s time, He would have said, “Before Abraham, I was.” The Greek words translated “was” in the case of Abraham, and “am” in the case of Jesus, are quite different. The words chosen by the Spirit make it clear that Abraham was “brought into being,” but Jesus existed eternally (see John 1:1). There is no doubt that the Jews understood what He was saying because they took up stones to kill Him for making Himself equal with God (John 5:18). Such a statement, if not true, was blasphemy and the punishment ascribed by the Mosaic Law was death (Leviticus 24:11-14). But Jesus committed no blasphemy; He was and is God, the second Person of the Godhead, equal to the Father in every way.
 
That is not true at all, Jesus is eternally the Son. The Church has always taught this and still does.
I know we profess “eternally begotten from the Father” each week when we cite the Nicene Creed; which obviously would cede your point. I just re-read Hebrews last week and the words sure make it seem like the Father made that statement at some point “before time,” which can be confusing. Do you know where this might be explained in the Cathecism?

-Karl
 
Jesus is God!

Is 44:6 - God is the First and the Last
Rev 1: 17-18 - Jesus is the First and the Last

Jn 8:58 - before Abraham was I AM
Ex 3: 13-14 - God identifies Himself as I AM

Father and the Son share titles:

Ps 89:26 - Father is God
Heb 1:8 - Son is God

Is 43:10 - Father is Savior
Lk 2:11 - Son is Savior

Is 64:8 - Father is Creator
Col 1:26 - Son is Creator

Christ is worshipped:

Mt 8:2 - the leper worshipped Jesus
Mt 9:18 - certain ruler worshipped Jesus
Mt 14:33 - disciples worship Jesus
Mt 15:25 - woman worships Jesus
Mt 28:9 - disciples worship Jesus
Phil 2:10-11 Name of Jesus every knee should bow…
every tongue confess Jesus is Lord

Angels worship Jesus:

Heb 1:6 - let all the angels worship Him.

And so much more. The problem is, she appears to be adapting herself to the 4th century Arian heresy which has come back and taken a new name - Jehovah Witnesses. I agree with you. She sounds like she is under their influence. You should check carefully to see what bible she is reading out of. The New World Translation is a heretical bible. It has been re-written in many parts to support doctrine that does not exist in Catholic or Protestant bibles.
The other part of the problem is Sola Scriptura - the fallacy of the bible only authority. The canon of scripture was authorized by Sacred Tradition and the Teaching Magisterium of the Church. They existed before the NT was written and compiled. Sola Sciptura is a man made tradition that come about in the reformation period and the grave error still exists to this day.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kc906
  1. Jesus was not always the “the Son of God,” this is a relationship that was formed when Jesus was begotten by the Father, and took on the form of a slave/human (Hebrews 1:5.)
That is false. Jesus is God and has always existed,so your understanding is faulty.
 
Erm, did you also mention to your friend that Nestorianism (sp?) was denounced like, forever ago? The early Church had councils about this. Nestorius was declared a heretic and the Church affirmed Jesus’ divinity. Go find her a history book so she doesn’t repeat the same mistakes.

At least, I think it was Nestorianism that denied the divinity of Christ. Whatever it was called, the Church handled it.
 
She doesn’t believe in religion, but uses the bible.

Who does she think the authors of the books of the NT learned from?

Does she only accept the parts of the NT that align to her desired way of thought?

Does she think truth exists outside of human opinion?
 
I know we profess “eternally begotten from the Father” each week when we cite the Nicene Creed; which obviously would cede your point. I just re-read Hebrews last week and the words sure make it seem like the Father made that statement at some point “before time,” which can be confusing. Do you know where this might be explained in the Cathecism?

-Karl
240 Jesus revealed that God is Father in an unheard-of sense: he is Father not only in being Creator; he is eternally Father in relation to his only Son, who is eternally Son only in relation to his Father: "No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."64

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91

I think these parts from the Catechism help quite a bit. I see how you could think that the Son is more of a title only after the time he was made man, but it just isn’t so. I have wrestled with that Idea, but that is just personal interpretation that really isn’t something you can prove from the Scriptures. The truth is that God, the Son is not a title but actually his truest “name” from all eternity. Thomas Aquinas does a good job in the Summa explaining how the terms Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, really are the most accurate names for the members of the Trinity.
 
she states that the bible says no one will be able to know everything, definitly not a man here on earth but she is just trying
For not knowing everything she sure has drawn some conclusions which are different than Church teaching for the past 2000 odd years. I would ask her why she believes she knows more than the Catholic Church.
 
For not knowing everything she sure has drawn some conclusions which are different than Church teaching for the past 2000 odd years. I would ask her why she believes she knows more than the Catholic Church.
I’m not sure that this would be the best rebuttal to any argument, but if it works I would feel very relieved of the pressure to actually answer the question. Not knowing something is not a bad thing. It means we have to try harder to understand things. The easy way out of trying to understand things is to have all the answers out there for us so we never have to question anything.
 
Jehovah witness? Do not bother. They believe in the watch tower, they believe in the Wolf man and they completely disregard the Holy trinity.
 
Jehovah witness? Do not bother. They believe in the watch tower, they believe in the Wolf man and they completely disregard the Holy trinity.
KJ, so you are recommending bringing the truth to some but not others. By what criteria? Whether they believe in the Trinity or not? This then would exclude most of the world’s population. What if the criteria were belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist as the apostles taught?
 
I believe Jesus is God however I am having trouble explaining this to a friend. I have a dilemma with her because she doesn’t believe in any religion, all the beliefs she has she comes to on her own interpretations only from the Bible. Even though she won’t admit it, her beliefs are most closely related to Jehova Witness.

Some of the beliefs she has that I would appreciate if people can help me disprove.
  1. The bible often speaks about Jesus as “the son of God”, she believes this means he is less then God and is totally different.
  2. Hebrews 12:2 “fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” she quoted me stating that he is sitting next to the father but still isn’t God himself. I couldn’t find anywhere online to refute this specific passage.
  3. she believes Jesus was once less than the angels and that the Jesus and Holy spirit have powers from God but that these powers can be taken away. Jesus had to work his way up to be better than the angels
It is hard to figure her beliefs out since I can’t really gain much of a reference point but she is a Bible ONLY beleiver so i know i can only use the bible.

Help would be appreciated! God Bless
Friend the only answer that would suffice to those who only have tunnel vision to versus that support their claim is this fact that can’t be argued.

Jesus Christ accepted worship and was worshiped and is worshiped today. God specifically throughout scripture has stated without exception that you are to worship him only.

This being the case Jesus is the almighty God.

The title Son is one of the three functions of God as the LOGOS or declared word. Without getting to much into the detail our hearts declaration is our word that is projected from our mind and so our mind cannot be separated from what we say.

Similar Christ is The Holy Spirit of God because God is Spirit (John 4:24) and the Christ being in every way the infinite, omnipresent and omniscient Holy Spirit of God.

In the same way you cannot divide our thoughts from what we say to what we do as this will destroy us as unique individuals, so to God who is the one indivisible Holy Spirit who cannot be divided from the living consciousness that is the Father from His declared Word that is the Son and His actions as God The Holy Spirit.
 
I believe Jesus is God however I am having trouble explaining this to a friend. I have a dilemma with her because she doesn’t believe in any religion, all the beliefs she has she comes to on her own interpretations only from the Bible. Even though she won’t admit it, her beliefs are most closely related to Jehova Witness.

Some of the beliefs she has that I would appreciate if people can help me disprove.
  1. The bible often speaks about Jesus as “the son of God”, she believes this means he is less then God and is totally different.
  2. Hebrews 12:2 “fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” she quoted me stating that he is sitting next to the father but still isn’t God himself. I couldn’t find anywhere online to refute this specific passage.
  3. she believes Jesus was once less than the angels and that the Jesus and Holy spirit have powers from God but that these powers can be taken away. Jesus had to work his way up to be better than the angels
It is hard to figure her beliefs out since I can’t really gain much of a reference point but she is a Bible ONLY beleiver so i know i can only use the bible.

Help would be appreciated! God Bless
Friend the only answer that would suffice to those who only have tunnel vision to versus that support their claim is this fact that can’t be argued.

Jesus Christ accepted worship and was worshiped and is worshiped today. God specifically throughout scripture has stated without exception that you are to worship him only.

This being the case Jesus is the almighty God.

The title Son is one of the three functions of God as the LOGOS or declared word. Without getting to much into the detail our hearts declaration is our word that is projected from our mind and so our mind cannot be separated from what we say.

Similar Christ is The Holy Spirit of God because God is Spirit (John 4:24) and the Christ being in every way the infinite, omnipresent and omniscient Holy Spirit of God.

In the same way you cannot divide our thoughts from what we say to what we do as this will destroy us as unique individuals, so to God who is the one indivisible Holy Spirit who cannot be divided from the living consciousness that is the Father from His declared Word that is the Son and His actions as God The Holy Spirit.
 
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God.

The written word of God.

Priests, pastors, and bible teachers.
Umm… as a protestant earlier, I took that as the bible. But you know when that was written the NT wasn’t entirely written yet, right? So perhaps it was referring to just the OT and a few new books that Paul calls “is useful”. “The written word of God” is your interpretation, but it’s saying “hearing” not “reading”. The “word” might actually mean what John 1:1-10 said, and in Greek, it means “logos”. The person of God - Jesus Christ.
 
Jesus is God!

Is 44:6 - God is the First and the Last
Rev 1: 17-18 - Jesus is the First and the Last

Jn 8:58 - before Abraham was I AM
Ex 3: 13-14 - God identifies Himself as I AM

Father and the Son share titles:

Ps 89:26 - Father is God
Heb 1:8 - Son is God

Is 43:10 - Father is Savior
Lk 2:11 - Son is Savior

Is 64:8 - Father is Creator
Col 1:26 - Son is Creator

Christ is worshipped:

Mt 8:2 - the leper worshipped Jesus
Mt 9:18 - certain ruler worshipped Jesus
Mt 14:33 - disciples worship Jesus
Mt 15:25 - woman worships Jesus
Mt 28:9 - disciples worship Jesus
Phil 2:10-11 Name of Jesus every knee should bow…
every tongue confess Jesus is Lord

Angels worship Jesus:

Heb 1:6 - let all the angels worship Him.
If she is wanting “only” scripture, this type of thing is the best way to go. I’d compile a list on a computer and print it out to show her. There are other lists one can find to, that connects OT and NT teachings as well.
 
I believe Jesus is God however I am having trouble explaining this to a friend. I have a dilemma with her because she doesn’t believe in any religion, all the beliefs she has she comes to on her own interpretations only from the Bible. Even though she won’t admit it, her beliefs are most closely related to Jehova Witness.

Some of the beliefs she has that I would appreciate if people can help me disprove.
  1. The bible often speaks about Jesus as “the son of God”, she believes this means he is less then God and is totally different.
  2. Hebrews 12:2 “fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” she quoted me stating that he is sitting next to the father but still isn’t God himself. I couldn’t find anywhere online to refute this specific passage.
  3. she believes Jesus was once less than the angels and that the Jesus and Holy spirit have powers from God but that these powers can be taken away. Jesus had to work his way up to be better than the angels
It is hard to figure her beliefs out since I can’t really gain much of a reference point but she is a Bible ONLY beleiver so i know i can only use the bible.

Help would be appreciated! God Bless
I might try to respond to her by answering on a more personal level.
What does it mean to you that Jesus, as a man with a history and a biography, is God?

Looking at God from the perspective of the Being that which no greater can be conceived, how does the concept of Jesus being God make the essence of God greater than if this simple son of a carpenter was not God?

For myself at least, Jesus being God gives an indescribably more grander concept of who God is, rather than if he was fully transcendent to our lives. To say that God is love, and love is the greatest thing that could exist, is also to say that the lover must desire to experience the beloved in every way and at every level. Anything less would be less than what we ourselves as humans experience. To be God must mean to experience love more than how we experience it, and not less.

God in the flesh is the only way that it can really be said that God indeed is love. For to love means to become one with the person that one is in love with. It is that one flesh union that is the essence of love itself.

If people can’t understand that, then there is little more that I could offer to make it comprehensible.

But if they can, the next step would be to consider that if God indeed did become a man like us in order to experience love at a more complete level, then what kind of man would God be?
Well, Bahai’s and Shiite Muslims and even Buddhists could point to any number of historic and/or semi-mythic figures that they construe as Emanations of God, according to their own languages of spiritual things, of course.
In my mind though, there has only been one historic figure that could really fit that role. Going point for point for the kind of person that he was, the message that he delivered, the compassion that he had for people that were of no particular importance to anyone else, to the great courage that he lived his life with, to his joy, and to his forgiveness, and even to his righteous anger, and his indignation against injustice, step for step, Jesus alone has laid out a path for us, unequaled by any other human being.

For God to be the kind of Being that which none greater can be conceived, he must at some level be human, and in the whole history of humanity, there is only one figure that rises head and shoulders over the rest, and that would be Jesus.
 
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