A Frustrating Situation

[J.W.B]

If the Church tells people that they are living in a mortal sin because a man has a second wife, (and the Church will not give them communion) but also tells them to bring up their children in the Christian manner, why would the couple even remain in the Church? Anotherwords if the Church is saying that two individuals are living in sin and the individuals refuse to not leave one another (like one day just get up and say "sorry honey, I have made mistakes in the past and so now I must leave you and the kids otherwise I’ll go to hell. So the kids will not have a dad in the house as they grow up even though I would never make the same mistake again, but I must leave) and so if they die in that state, they’re dammed.

Would they be dammed or are they dammed? The catechism states “they are NOT seperated from the Church” but goes on to say that they cannot recieve communion or participate in the clergy in any way, but must live the christian life and bring up their children in the christian way. But even when they do this is the Church saying they are still dammed? If so then what the heck would people hang around in a Church to just await dammnation? I would imagine they would leave and NOT believe in the Catholic Church anymore. But the Catechism says they are NOT seperated so does that mean they are not dammed?

What frustrates me is that say a Catholic gets married to another Catholic and down the road the wife leaves him and they divorce. The man eventuly loses his faith but marries another woman and with her has kids. Then let’s say years later he has Faith once again but is now in a dilema because the Church says he is in an adulterous state. What is he to do, leave the woman he is with now along with his children? How is that GOOD? Divorce is absoluetly HORRIBLE! But what is better, realize he made a mistake but now will live with it and be faithful to the woman he is with now who actualy loves (and will remain to love him all of her life) him and he her, or to leave the new family because of his once wife who at one time loved him, but became lustful and pridful so she left him. Should he ruion his new family because of that? Or is he going to hell unless he just pops up and leaves? That bothers me and it’s very frustrating. And I am saying that the man is TRULY sorry for the mistakes he made and vows to never make simular ones again but stays to take care of his new family.

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

If the Church tells people that they are living in a mortal sin because a man has a second wife, (

JWB

The Church didn’t make the rule, Jesus did. He is the one that said that there was no divorce.

Your argument is one of sentimentality. It is the same type of argument used to promote abortion.

It is not easy to do what God wants us to but if we are to have eternal salvation we must die to ourselves.

There might not be a marriage to begin with and so an annulment may be obtained and then the couple would be able to marry in the Church.

 

[RSiscoe]

J.W.B.:

If the Church tells people that they are living in a mortal sin because a man has a second wife, (and the Church will not give them communion) but also tells them to bring up their children in the Christian manner, why would the couple even remain in the Church?

What should the Church tell them? After all, if they are divorced and remarried, they ARE in mortal sin. The Church has the obligation to tell them that. Should the Church then tell them that they should NOT raise their child as a Catholic, so the child can suffer for the sins of their parents? Would that be the right thing for the Church to do?

Anotherwords if the Church is saying that two individuals are living in sin and the individuals refuse to not leave one another (like one day just get up and say "sorry honey, I have made mistakes in the past and so now I must leave you and the kids otherwise I’ll go to hell. So the kids will not have a dad in the house as they grow up…

And whose fault is that? The Church, who said not to divorce and remarry in the first place? Or the disobedient the sinful parent who chose not to listen to the Church and committed the mortal sin of marrying someone else and living in adultery?

… even though I would never make the same mistake again, but I must leave) and so if they die in that state, they’re dammed.

Well, there is always the 3rd option. In reparation for all of the problems they have cause through their sinful disobedience and adultery, they could always make the sacrifice to live as brother and sister with their spousee. That way, the children would not suffer, and they would not go to hell. All that would required is a little sacrifice on their part - celibacy.

Would they be dammed or are they dammed?

They are in a “state” of damnation, since they are in mortal sin, but they are not yet damned. God, in His Infinite Mercy, has given them time to repent of their ways, and come back to Him. Will they take advantage of this great mercy of God, or will they obstinately reject it and continue on their current path?

The catechism states “they are NOT seperated from the Church” but goes on to say that they cannot recieve communion or participate in the clergy in any way, but must live the christian life and bring up their children in the christian way

.

They are still a member of the mystical body of Christ, but they are a dead member. They are seperated from Christ (spiritually), but, as long as they keep the faith, they are still a member of the body of Christ. But, their being a member of the Church will not profit them, since they are in mortal sin. In fact, they will go to the lowest region of hell, since they, unlike pagans, had the truth and rejected it through their disobedient life.

But even when they do this is the Church saying they are still dammed? If so then what the heck would people hang around in a Church to just await dammnation? I would imagine they would leave and NOT believe in the Catholic Church anymore. But the Catechism says they are NOT seperated so does that mean they are not dammed?

What frustrates me is that say a Catholic gets married to another Catholic and down the road the wife leaves him and they divorce. The man eventuly loses his faith but marries another woman and with her has kids. Then let’s say years later he has Faith once again but is now in a dilema because the Church says he is in an adulterous state.

The problem is not that the Church says he is in an adulterous state. The problem is that he IS in an adulterous state. Don’t blame the Church because this person lost the faith and committed a mortal sin. Place the blame where it belongs. The Church teaches the truth. If they have a problem with what the Church is saying, they have a problem with the Truth. They can either deal with this here and now on earth, while mercy is available to them, or they can deal with the Truth, when it is too late on judgment day.

continue…

 

[RSiscoe]

continuation

What is he to do, leave the woman he is with now along with his children? How is that GOOD? Divorce is absoluetly HORRIBLE! But what is better, realize he made a mistake but now will live with it and be faithful to the woman he is with now who actualy loves (and will remain to love him all of her life) him and he her, or to leave the new family because of his once wife who at one time loved him, but became lustful and pridful so she left him. Should he ruion his new family because of that? Or is he going to hell unless he just pops up and leaves? That bothers me and it’s very frustrating. And I am saying that the man is TRULY sorry for the mistakes he made and vows to never make simular ones again but stays to take care of his new family.

Well the first thing “he” needs to do is to stop blaming the Church for his sins. He is at fault. He got himself into the mess he is in, not the Church. In fact, the Church tried to stop him by telling him the truth, just as it is trying to warn him now that he needs to remedy the situation for the sake of his immortal soul. He should feel very fortunate that he can obtain forgiveness for the mess he has made.

Then, once he stops blaming others for the consequences of his sinful ways, he can turn to the Church for help.

There are things he can do: First he should find a good priest (and that may take some searching). Then maybe the Church will allow him to live with his new wife as brother and sister (seperate rooms, etc.), and be able to receive the sacraments.

There is no question: This person has made a very big mistake, and is on the broad path to hell. Fortunately, so far God has been very merciful in giving him time to repent and make ammends. In fact, if the “he” we are talking about it really “you”, then you should know that God has not only been merciful by giving you time, but has been merciful by giving you the grace to be bothered by the situation. You ought to be very thankful that God is being so merciful to you, and take advantage of it. Whatever sacrifice is necessary to reconcile with God will be well worth it when this short life ends and the person in question is faced with eternity.

So, first of all, he should face up to his responsibilities and stop blaming the Church. Then, once he has repented of his adultery, the Church, like a good mother, will help him try to find the best way to rectify the difficult situation.

A good place to start is the confessional.

 

[piety101]

The problem is, is that we live in a “I’ll do as I please society”. Little over a hundred years ago divorce was not as commonplace as it is today. The man and woman stayed married for better or worse period. Mostly to tolerate each other and the neighbors wouldn’t know the real truth. But in future societies morals declined, so have the value of long term marriages.

                            Both our church and the bible teach that when two people marry within the Catholic church they are committed to the sacrament of marriage, til DEATH do you part. They both take a vow before God. Marriage in the church is considered sacred and holy. A lot of Catholics do not REALLY believe this to be the case, until they are disciplined later long after they are divorced and desire to remarry. They balk at the idea they are not allow to receive communion, but their children are. The reality is, the children didn't break the vow of marriage, two adults did. And what you sow, you will reap.

                             A lot of divorced Catholics get an annulment from the church BEFORE they remarry, so they can get back in good status with the church and be able to receive communion. But I personally feel this is a go around and destroys the intent of staying married to begin with. If I know I can divorce my wife and then get an annulment somewhere down the road and remarry, would I really feel that I MUST stay married to my spouse to begin with? Not really. It is kind of a catch 22.

 

[J.W.B]

Yeah I know Ann, I’m sorry. But you do not really understand why I ask this. I feel haunted by devils. If you have ever read any of my other posts like “need help, in despair” you’ll know why I’m asking this.

But can someone PLEASE tell me why the Catechism says “they are NOT seperated from the Church.” Does that not mean that they are not seperated from the body of Christ? But divorve is a mortal sin is it not?

 

[J.W.B]

RSiscoe:

continuation

Well the first thing “he” needs to do is to stop blaming the Church for his sins. He is at fault. He got himself into the mess he is in, not the Church. In fact, the Church tried to stop him by telling him the truth, just as it is trying to warn him now that he needs to remedy the situation for the sake of his immortal soul. He should feel very fortunate that he can obtain forgiveness for the mess he has made.

Then, once he stops blaming others for the consequences of his sinful ways, he can turn to the Church for help.

There are things he can do: First he should find a good priest (and that may take some searching). Then maybe the Church will allow him to live with his new wife as brother and sister (seperate rooms, etc.), and be able to receive the sacraments.

There is no question: This person has made a very big mistake, and is on the broad path to hell. Fortunately, so far God has been very merciful in giving him time to repent and make ammends. In fact, if the “he” we are talking about it really “you”, then you should know that God has not only been merciful by giving you time, but has been merciful by giving you the grace to be bothered by the situation. You ought to be very thankful that God is being so merciful to you, and take advantage of it. Whatever sacrifice is necessary to reconcile with God will be well worth it when this short life ends and the person in question is faced with eternity.

So, first of all, he should face up to his responsibilities and stop blaming the Church. Then, once he has repented of his adultery, the Church, like a good mother, will help him try to find the best way to rectify the difficult situation.

A good place to start is the confessional.

No it is not I who is in this mess. I have one wife who I am happily married too in the Catholic Church and the marriage certificate to prove it. The problem though is that I feel like I’m haunted by devils or paraniod. Ihad another thread on this about a month ago called “Need help, in despair” if you find that then you’ll know why I’m bothered. Please pray for me. This goes beyond anything I can say.

 

[Liberian]

JWB,

I can appreciate your frustration–and probably also your dissatisfaction with the answers you have received so far. After all, it is grossly unfair to the children of the second marriage to have Dad pick up and go, and I don’t think the Church demands that.

What makes a marriage a marriage rather than simply a living arrangement is (1) the commitment to lifelong union and (2) sexual relations. I think the specific thing that would make a second marriage adulterous is the sexual relations in it; after all, if there is no sex there would be no adultery. If the husband and second wife can sit down and agree that they will have a “white marriage” (as I believe it used to be called)–where they will continue to share the household and raising of the children and so on–but will abstain from sexual relations, the Church will at the very least say that they aren’t in mortal sin. I think (and this is strictly my opinion) that this would probably be the best course of action once one has gotten into this sort of a situation.

I can appreciate that since one’s wife is an extremely beautiful and pleasant woman, the idea of living with her under these conditions may be a whole new sort of frustrating situation. I wasn’t saying that this would be an easy course of action, simply the one that I think is the best under the unfortunate circumstances.

I need to emphasize that I am NOT an authority on this sort of thing. Please ask somebody who knows better than I do about whether or not this is correct.

• Liberian

 

[vern_humphrey]

J.W.B.:

Yeah I know Ann, I’m sorry. But you do not really understand why I ask this. I feel haunted by devils. If you have ever read any of my other posts like “need help, in despair” you’ll know why I’m asking this.

But can someone PLEASE tell me why the Catechism says “they are NOT seperated from the Church.” Does that not mean that they are not seperated from the body of Christ? But divorve is a mortal sin is it not?

Divorce may or may not be a sin, depending on the circumstances. From the Catechism:

2385 Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society. [2386](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2386.htm’) It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law. There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.

Adultry IS a mortal sin. It is the re-marriage that results in being unable to take communion. However marriages can often be annuled.

1629 For this reason (or for other reasons that render the marriage null and void) the Church, after an examination of the situation by the competent ecclesiastical tribunal, can declare the nullity of a marriage, i.e., that the marriage never existed.132 In this case the contracting parties are free to marry, provided the natural obligations of a previous union are discharged.133

A divorced person, who bears no fault in the divorce, and who has the marriage annuled is free to marry and participate in the sacrements. I know many Catholics who have gone that route.

 

[J.W.B]

piety101:

The problem is, is that we live in a “I’ll do as I please society”. Little over a hundred years ago divorce was not as commonplace as it is today. The man and woman stayed married for better or worse period. Mostly to tolerate each other and the neighbors wouldn’t know the real truth. But in future societies morals declined, so have the value of long term marriages.

Both our church and the bible teach that when two people marry within the Catholic church they are committed to the sacrament of marriage, til DEATH do you part. They both take a vow before God. Marriage in the church is considered sacred and holy. A lot of Catholics do not REALLY believe this to be the case, until they are disciplined later long after they are divorced and desire to remarry. They balk at the idea they are not allow to receive communion, but their children are. The reality is, the children didn’t break the vow of marriage, two adults did. And what you sow, you will reap.

A lot of divorced Catholics get an annulment from the church BEFORE they remarry, so they can get back in good status with the church and be able to receive communion. But I personally feel this is a go around and destroys the intent of staying married to begin with. If I know I can divorce my wife and then get an annulment somewhere down the road and remarry, would I really feel that I MUST stay married to my spouse to begin with? Not really. It is kind of a catch 22.

So if that’s the case then the annulment doesn’t count?

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

J.W.B.:

Yeah I know Ann, I’m sorry. But you do not really understand why I ask this. I feel haunted by devils. If you have ever read any of my other posts like “need help, in despair” you’ll know why I’m asking this.

But can someone PLEASE tell me why the Catechism says “they are NOT seperated from the Church.” Does that not mean that they are not seperated from the body of Christ? But divorve is a mortal sin is it not?

This might be because until about twentyfive years ago there was an automatic excommunication. This excommuncation no longer exist and maybe the Catechism wishes to emphasis this.

No I don’t know why you asked. I haven’t read anything else you have written. God Bless you and I will offer up prayer for you to be released from your “devils”

 

[RSiscoe]

J.W.B.:

No it is not I who is in this mess. I have one wife who I am happily married too in the Catholic Church and the marriage certificate to prove it. The problem though is that I feel like I’m haunted by devils or paraniod. Ihad another thread on this about a month ago called “Need help, in despair” if you find that then you’ll know why I’m bothered. Please pray for me. This goes beyond anything I can say.

Glad to hear it is not you. I’ll try to find you other thread and read through it. I will also pray for you. In fact, I just added you to my list of people I pray for.

If you aren’t already doing it, I would suggest going to confession frenquently, to help you with your problems.

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

J.W.B.:

So if that’s the case then the annulment doesn’t count?

An annulment is not guaranteed. They are denied too. But if a degree of annulment is granted than that means that the person is free to marry. I hope that answers your question.

 

[RyanL]

Ann Cheryl:

An annulment is not guaranteed. They are denied too. But if a degree of annulment is granted than that means that the person is free to marry. I hope that answers your question.

To get a better idea about this, you should probably consult your local chancery / Bishop’s office. Without his pastoral care, we are simply left to speculate. Trust the Church, and always remember that God’s name is Mercy.

With loving prayers,
RyanL