A Fundamental Response to a Fundamentalist Question

[epostle]

· After one person complained about a nativity scene in Shawnee State Park in Ohio, the state parks’ chief ordered a ban on crèches from all parks. It took the governor to overturn this decision.

· In Wesley Chapel, Florida, Jesus was banned from a holiday display.

· The mayor of Cranston, Rhode Island censored all religious displays.

· Government officials in Tehama County, California tried to ban Santa in office displays but had to reverse their decision after a protest.

· A nativity scene in Olean, New York was removed from the City Hall lawn after Wiccans placed the pentacle alongside it.

· A crèche was banned from Triangle Park in Manistique, Michigan.

· After a Catholic sued and won demanding a crèche alongside a menorah in Briarcliff Manor, New York, local officials banned both the Christian and Jewish symbols.

· The Dickens Christmas Festival in Saginaw, Michigan was renamed the Dickens Holiday Festival so the city could advertise in local schools. The schools ban the words “Santa,” “Christmas” and “Nativity.”

· Atheists Alliance International put up a tree on the lawn of Chester County Courthouse outside Philadelphia with copies of the covers of books saying, “Why I Am Not a Christian,” etc.

· Americans United for Separation of Church and State is trying to block the display of a crèche in Shelby County, Alabama.

· Freedom from Religion Foundation is trying to stop the display of nativity scenes in three Wisconsin towns.

Catholic League president Bill Donohue commented as follows: “The cultural fascists are still at it, but the good news is that more and more Americans are fighting back.”

Sooner or later you may have make a choice who you stand with,
tabcom.

 

[pete_29]

Touche’, tab!

I’m so happy that I could bring a little joy into your and tabs life. If my playing the fool can bring a smile to your face then I’m glad to do it for you.

 

[pete_29]

By the way I give you a touche too tab. It was a stupid comment by me.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Where are you getting this that “God and sin cannot coexist”? Jesus did not inherit any sin nature since He was conceived in a unique way by the Holy Spirit.
po18guy
JA4, the Lord seems to undo things in the opposite fashion in which they were done. Through disobedience (Adam/Eve) mankind fell so, through obedience (Mary/Jesus), mankind was restored to grace. OK so far? Peter denied Jesus three times, then by the shore, re-affirmed Christ three times (feed my lambs, tend my sheep, feed my sheep). A pattern. Still OK?

Just as God took the perfect woman (Eve) from the perfect man (Adam), he reversed the condemnation of their sin by then taking the perfect man (Jesus’ human nature) from the perfect woman (Mary). God alone controls whether sin attaches at conception or not - we do not.

I do not expect you to accept or believe this in any fashion, but it explains the beliefs of the Catholic faithful. A pattern. God keeps the pattern because He cannot and does not change. He expects us to.

Christ’s peace, brother.

Your answer doesn’t answer my question—Why “God and sin cannot coexist”? How was it possible for Jesus, the perfect God-man, able live among sinful men and not either be “polluted” by sin or stumble?

 

[epostle]

Your answer doesn’t answer my question—Why “God and sin cannot coexist”? How was it possible for Jesus, the perfect God-man, able live among sinful men and not either be “polluted” by sin or stumble?

God and sin cannot coexist. It’s called Christianity. It’s also called Judaism. In fact, it’s a universally accepted Judea/Christian truth. Your question seems to reveal the influence of John Calvin, although he never said Jesus sinned, he did claim that Jesus became sin on the cross. This is totally false, because the wages of sin is death, and God cannot die. Worse, Calvin’s absolute predestination is false, making God the author of evil.

Calvinists correctly teach that Jesus Christ is true God and true man in one Person. They reject, however, the Biblical teaching of the communication of attributes between our Lord’s divine and human natures (this was confessed at the Council of Chalcedon in 451). For example, an attribute of human nature is death. God, in and of himself, cannot die. However, because the divine and human natures are united in the one Person of Jesus Christ, what is proper to the human nature is transferred (or communicated/shared) with the divine nature. That is why Scripture can say that on the cross, God died: “For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life” (Rom 5:10); “the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin (1 John 1:7b). This Calvinists reject. They say that the finite is not capable of the infinite. This is probably the main reason that Calvinists do not believe that Christ’s true body and blood are eaten with the bread and wine in the Lord’s Supper. They believe that Christ’s body and blood cannot be there because Christ’s human nature is at the right hand of God and only there… Didn’t the whole Jesus (human and divine) say, “Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age”? (Mt 28:20).
orlutheran.com/calvinisttheology.html (Lutheran)

The rhetoric of later anti-Romanism is already present in both Luther and Calvin. They did not just recommend a vernacular liturgy. They wanted to utterly destroy the Mass. (Their words, not mine.) They did not merely want to open marriage to the clergy. They attacked celibacy as unnatural and unbiblical (Ignoring Matt 19:9ff, and 1Cor 7). They did not just want to empower the laity. They wanted to eliminate the Episcopacy, the priesthood, and the monastic orders.

And I could go on and on.

The so-called “reformers” did not try to reform the Cathoic Church. Trent did that. They tried to invent several new religions that completely denied solemnly declared teaching and which played fast-and-loose with the Bible in the service of unbiblical theological systems based on Nominalism and similar “modernist” errors of that time. I would urge you to take an honest look at the true historic, consistent authoritive Church for what she has to say for herself, and stop accepting the misrepresentations, distortions and lies that seem to be a religion in itself.

 

[mercygate]

God and sin cannot coexist. It’s called Christianity. It’s also called Judaism. In fact, it’s a universally accepted Judea/Christian truth. Your question seems to reveal the influence of John Calvin, although he never said Jesus sinned, he did claim that Jesus became sin on the cross. This is totally false, because the wages of sin is death, and God cannot die. Worse, Calvin’s absolute predestination is false, making God the author of evil.

Calvinists correctly teach that Jesus Christ is true God and true man in one Person. They reject, however, the Biblical teaching of the communication of attributes between our Lord’s divine and human natures (this was confessed at the Council of Chalcedon in 451). For example, an attribute of human nature is death. God, in and of himself, cannot die. However, because the divine and human natures are united in the one Person of Jesus Christ, what is proper to the human nature is transferred (or communicated/shared) with the divine nature. That is why Scripture can say that on the cross, God died: “For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life” (Rom 5:10); “the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin (1 John 1:7b). This Calvinists reject. They say that the finite is not capable of the infinite. This is probably the main reason that Calvinists do not believe that Christ’s true body and blood are eaten with the bread and wine in the Lord’s Supper. They believe that Christ’s body and blood cannot be there because Christ’s human nature is at the right hand of God and only there… Didn’t the whole Jesus (human and divine) say, “Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age”? (Mt 28:20).
orlutheran.com/calvinisttheology.html (Lutheran)

The rhetoric of later anti-Romanism is already present in both Luther and Calvin. They did not just recommend a vernacular liturgy. They wanted to utterly destroy the Mass. (Their words, not mine.) They did not merely want to open marriage to the clergy. They attacked celibacy as unnatural and unbiblical (Ignoring Matt 19:9ff, and 1Cor 7). They did not just want to empower the laity. They wanted to eliminate the Episcopacy, the priesthood, and the monastic orders.

And I could go on and on.

The so-called “reformers” did not try to reform the Cathoic Church. Trent did that. They tried to invent several new religions that completely denied solemnly declared teaching and which played fast-and-loose with the Bible in the service of unbiblical theological systems based on Nominalism and similar “modernist” errors of that time. I would urge you to take an honest look at the true historic, consistent authoritive Church for what she has to say for herself, and stop accepting the misrepresentations, distortions and lies that seem to be a religion in itself.

epostle, can you up your type size a notch? Thanks.

 

[epostle]

Gladly.

God and sin cannot coexist. It’s called Christianity. It’s also called Judaism. In fact, it’s a universally accepted Judea/Christian truth. Your question seems to reveal the influence of John Calvin, although he never said Jesus sinned, he did claim that Jesus became sin on the cross. This is totally false, because the wages of sin is death, and God cannot die. Worse, Calvin’s absolute predestination is false, making God the author of evil.

Calvinists correctly teach that Jesus Christ is true God and true man in one Person. They reject, however, the Biblical teaching of the communication of attributes between our Lord’s divine and human natures (this was confessed at the Council of Chalcedon in 451). For example, an attribute of human nature is death. God, in and of himself, cannot die. However, because the divine and human natures are united in the one Person of Jesus Christ, what is proper to the human nature is transferred (or communicated/shared) with the divine nature. That is why Scripture can say that on the cross, God died: “For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life” (Rom 5:10); “the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin (1 John 1:7b). This Calvinists reject. They say that the finite is not capable of the infinite. This is probably the main reason that Calvinists do not believe that Christ’s true body and blood are eaten with the bread and wine in the Lord’s Supper. They believe that Christ’s body and blood cannot be there because Christ’s human nature is at the right hand of God and only there… Didn’t the whole Jesus (human and divine) say, “Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age”? (Mt 28:20).
orlutheran.com/calvinisttheology.html (Lutheran)

The rhetoric of later anti-Romanism is already present in both Luther and Calvin. They did not just recommend a vernacular liturgy. They wanted to utterly destroy the Mass. (Their words, not mine.) They did not merely want to open marriage to the clergy. They attacked celibacy as unnatural and unbiblical (Ignoring Matt 19:9ff, and 1Cor 7). They did not just want to empower the laity. They wanted to eliminate the Episcopacy, the priesthood, and the monastic orders.

And I could go on and on.

The so-called “reformers” did not try to reform the Cathoic Church. Trent did that. They tried to invent several new religions that completely denied solemnly declared teaching and which played fast-and-loose with the Bible in the service of unbiblical theological systems based on Nominalism and similar “modernist” errors of that time. I would urge you to take an honest look at the true historic, consistent authoritive Church for what she has to say for herself, and stop accepting the misrepresentations, distortions and lies that seem to be a religion in itself.

 

[mercygate]

MUCH better. Thanks.

 

[tabcom]

By the way I give you a touche too tab. It was a stupid comment by me.

Thank you for saying so. :hug1:

 

[justasking4]

epostle;3114646]

Quote: justasking4
Your answer doesn’t answer my question—Why “God and sin cannot coexist”? How was it possible for Jesus, the perfect God-man, able live among sinful men and not either be “polluted” by sin or stumble?
epostle
God and sin cannot coexist. It’s called Christianity. It’s also called Judaism. In fact, it’s a universally accepted Judea/Christian truth. Your question seems to reveal the influence of John Calvin, although he never said Jesus sinned, he did claim that Jesus became sin on the cross. This is totally false, because the wages of sin is death, and God cannot die. Worse, Calvin’s absolute predestination is false, making God the author of evil.

God and sin do coexist in a sense. Evidently we are all still here otherwise we would have all perished by now due to the wrath of God.
In regards to Calvin believing that “Jesus became sin on the cross” he may be referring to 2 Corinthians 5:21 which says:
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[guanophore]

This play out of your ‘Defend the tree play book’ may be effective against a 10 year old.

Of course Jeremiah (and Elijah, and 1 Maccabees 1:47) are discussing idols. It is not the physical christmas tree that is being worshiped. It is what it metaphorically represents.

One more time . . .

What is idolatry???

Luke 12:15 And he (Jesus) said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Covetousness = Idolatry

covetousness- greek: pleonektes- to want more; greediness

Idolatry = wanting more

Every man is covetous by nature until God deals with him and causes him to repent (turn from self to God). The word devil (daimon) means to distribute fortunes. A covetous man who “wants more” has a devil. Covetousness is the idolatrous worship of self. It is an idolatry as evil as falling down before Baal, the christmas tree, the golden calf, or anyone of the ancient pagan deities of Babylon.

Paul said, “having food and raiment, let us be there with content” (I Tim. 6:8). He also said, “I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.” (Phil. 4:11).

Men, myself included, are involved in idolatry when they refuse to be content with what they have. Their hearts cry out, “I want more.”

John gives such warnings in 1 John 2:15-17.

15
Do not love the world or the things of the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16
For all that is in the world, sensual lust, enticement for the eyes, and a pretentious life, is not from the Father but is from the world.
17
Yet the world and its enticement are passing away. But whoever does the will of God remains forever.

That sums up the material world. Lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, and the pride of life. Those are the three things that caused Eve to fall when she was sudduced by the serpent and accepted her gift from the first christmas tree.

I agree with all this. What I can’t figure out is what it has to do with a Christmas tree. Do you think people are worshipping trees?

 

[guanophore]

What exactly are you trying to say? That everything is permissiable? I'm not following your logic.

Well, yes, actually…
tabcom;3073731:

After spending the past six years not doing Christmas, I believe the tree metaphorically represents the tree in the garden.

When one bows down to accept a gift from the tree, they are doing three things: they want that present with their name on it (lust of the eye). After opening the gift and seeing that they received what they wished for (lust of the flesh), it makes them feel good (pride of life).

Well, tab, if it makes you more pure before God not to celebrate Christmas, that is your affair. However, I can assure you that many people receive gifts at xmas without any lust or pride. Also, feeling good about recieving a gift is not necessarily the “pride of life”. The purpose of the celebration is receiving Christ incarnate, about which we should all feel very good!

I keep asking, and I’m still waiting for an answer as to why did it take over 300 years for the church in Rome to determine not only when Jesus’ birthdays was (by the way, it wasn’t even in December), and why did it need be linked with the pagan festivals of the Saturnalia? please explain.

Actually, I think the December date corresponds to the feast of the Sun God. Also the winter solstice. The church overtrumped everything Pagan she could find by celebrating Jesus!

Look at it this way, humans were in darkness before God’s grace. When God comes into our lives, our darkness is replaced by HIs light. The same is true of the Pagan calendar.

 

[guanophore]

The Bible condemns idolatry. It is my belief that the christmas tree is idolatry. Christ condemnation was against false teachers. He condemned the rituals and dogma.

Yes, the Bible condemns idolatry. If using a Christmas tree is idolatrous for you then it is good you are not doing it!

James 4:16-17
17 Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, **for him it is sin. **

However, for those who are not involved in idolatry with it, then for them, it is not a sin.

Jesus did condemn false teachers.

He did not condemn rituals and dogma. That is nonsense. He fulfilled all the rituals and dogma, and participated in each and every one!

 

[tabcom]

What I can’t figure out is what it has to do with a Christmas tree. Do you think people are worshipping trees?

No one is worshiping a literal tree. It is what the tree metaphorically represent that is evil.

From where did the first tree worship begin?

Genesis 2:16 17 – of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it.

And what was the ‘real power’ that was promised to Eve?

Genesis 3:5
“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

The first democracy was formed in the garden. Of Adam, By Eve, For Satan. They voted God out and voted self in.

When one bows down to accept a gift from the tree, they are doing three things: they want that present with their name on it (lust of the eye). After opening the gift and seeing that they received what they wished for (lust of the flesh), it makes them feel good (pride of life).
**
What type of worship is required from a believer?**

Lu 4:8
Jesus answered him, "It is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’ "

How do you do that?

Joh 4:23
"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

Joh 4:24
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Joh 3:21
“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

By doing the Truth does one become a worshiper of God.

 

[tabcom]

The purpose of the celebration is receiving Christ incarnate, about which we should all feel very good!

When God comes into our lives, our darkness is replaced by HIs light.

I was about 8 years old when I came to an understanding that Jesus was born. In the Roman Catholic Tradition, Christmas = Jesus was born. I got it.

As a baby believer, my hunger to grow by way of the Truth lead me from a diet of milk to solid foods. (Heb. 5:10-14). I learned to add to my faith (2 Peter 1:5). As a disciple of Christ, I’ll continue to study and grow in Faith for the rest of my life.

Metaphorically speaking, when I was 8, I was learning to write simple sentences. Those were valuable skills I learned. However, I don’t need an annual holiday to celebrate my ability to recognize the difference between a noun and a verb. It is a hinderence to my studying the Koine Greek of the new testament.

 

[Petergee]

I was about 8 years old when I came to an understanding that Jesus was born. In the Roman Catholic Tradition, Christmas = Jesus was born. I got it.

As a baby believer, my hunger to grow by way of the Truth lead me from a diet of milk to solid foods. (Heb. 5:10-14). I learned to add to my faith (2 Peter 1:5). As a disciple of Christ, I’ll continue to study and grow in Faith for the rest of my life.

Metaphorically speaking, when I was 8, I was learning to write simple sentences. Those were valuable skills I learned. However, I don’t need an annual holiday to celebrate my ability to recognize the difference between a noun and a verb. It is a hinderence to my studying the Koine Greek of the new testament.

How could having an annual holiday possibly be a hindrance to your study?

I guess by the time you were 8 years old you “got” the fact that people celebrate birthdays to celebrate the fact that someone was born. So have you now put this behind you and refuse to celebrate anybody’s birthday?

Sorry but the more voluminous your postings here, the less sense you make.

 

[tabcom]

How could having an annual holiday possibly be a hindrance to your study?

The hindrance existed because of the time consumed in my social obligation of conforming to the secular world’s belief of what it means to celebrate christmas. Those obligations usually started after Thanksgiving (compiling a gift list) and continued up to New Years Day (physical exhaustion from all the x-mas blitz). Followed by return to work the next day.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

What does the tree that Jesus died on for our salvation mean to you tabcom?

Tell me it doesn’t have any metaphorical meanings!

 

[Eileen_T]

Yes, the Bible condemns idolatry. If using a Christmas tree is idolatrous for you then it is good you are not doing it!

James 4:16-17
17 Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, **for him it is sin. **

However, for those who are not involved in idolatry with it, then for them, it is not a sin.

Jesus did condemn false teachers.

He did not condemn rituals and dogma. That is nonsense. He fulfilled all the rituals and dogma, and participated in each and every one!

I know, and am confident in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself; but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. - Romans 14:14 DRV

So for tabcom, believing it would be sinful to have a Christmas tree, for him it would be wrong, thinking as he does. For the rest of us who believe there is nothing wrong or idolatrous about it, it is not wrong.

I disagree with his definition of idolatry however, wanting more is greed, idolatry is putting someone or something before God.

I also disagree that the old deities are still around. There are no “old deities” because there is only ONE God. Anything else is deception which comes from satan and his demons.

 

[tabcom]

I disagree with his definition of idolatry . . .

:tsktsk: It’s the Bible’s definition that you disagree with!

I also disagree that the old deities are still around.

December 25th birthday’s of antiquity that had virgin births\star in the east\3 kings:

Horus 3000 BC – Egypt
Attus 1200 BC – Greece
Mithra 1200 BC – Persia
Krishna 900 BC – India
Dionysus 500 BC – Greece
Jesus 1 AD – Nazareth (according the the Roman Catholic Church)