A Fundamental Response to a Fundamentalist Question

[tabcom]

I’d like to go way back, to post #17 within the ‘Protestants: Does your celbration of Christmas bother you?’ thread.

The Catholic Church does not celebrate Christ’s birth-DAY on December 25. We commemorate His BIRTH,

From zeitgeistmovie.com:

“The reality is, Jesus was the Solar Deity of the Gnostic Christian sect, [S194] [S195] [S196] and like all other Pagan gods, he was a mythical figure. It was the political establishment that sought to historize the Jesus figure for social control. By 325 a.d. in Rome, emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicea. [S197]”

[S194] - Allegro, John - The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth, Prometheus Books, 190-203
[S195] - Massey, Gerald. : Lectures- Gnostic amd Historic Christianity,Cosimo Classics, p. 73-104
[S196] - Freke & Gandy: The Jesus Mysteries, Three Rivers Press, p 89-110, 253-256
[S197] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. p.340-342

/////////////////////*

In order to refute this claim, can someone provide a historical record from antiquity that Jesus, the man, ever existed?

 

[guanophore]

No one is worshiping a literal tree. It is what the tree metaphorically represent that is evil.

Well, then, if the tree represents to the Christian the everlasting nature of Christ, is that evil?

When one bows down to accept a gift from the tree, they are doing three things: they want that present with their name on it (lust of the eye). After opening the gift and seeing that they received what they wished for (lust of the flesh), it makes them feel good (pride of life).

This is kind of a puzzle to me. I can see your point, but I don’t think this perspective can be universally applied to people. Most folks accept their gifts from other people, and do not “bow down” to anything, including the giver of the gift. The idea that the gift comes from the tree itself seems kind of foreign.

Jesus gives us the gift of Himself, and he is gifted by the magi. This is the source of the Christmas giving, not a “tree”. Christians are to outdo one another showing honor, and while I do agree that there is too much commercialism in Christmas, there is also good things for the soul in the act of giving "
for God loves a cheerful giver"2 Cor 9:7

I agree with what you say about worship in spirit and truth. I don’t think that a tree or giving of gifts is incompatible with it. However, the secular celebration of Xmas often is devoid of worship. Christians must strive to be salt and light to society, and help refocus everyone onto the reason for the season.

 

[guanophore]

:tsktsk: It’s the Bible’s definition that you disagree with!
December 25th birthday’s of antiquity that had virgin births\star in the east\3 kings:

Horus 3000 BC – Egypt
Attus 1200 BC – Greece
Mithra 1200 BC – Persia
Krishna 900 BC – India
Dionysus 500 BC – Greece
Jesus 1 AD – Nazareth (according the the Roman Catholic Church)

Just to clarify, Tabcom, the Catholic Church (Roman and otherwise) has never said Jesus was born on Dec. 25th. The Church chose that day to celebrate the mystery of the incarnation, to help replace the Pagan feasts, not because anyone thought Jesus was born on that day. No one knows for sure what day He was born.

 

[epostle]

December 25th was indeed a pagan holiday,

so what.

In ancient ages many new converts (formerly pagans) yielded to temptation to keep that feast. It seems that Christian leaders endeavored to counteract that practice by giving believers a Christian festival on the same day, celebrating the birth of Christ. Some churches in our day conduct special banquets or other attractions for their high school seniors on the night of the senior prom for much the same motive. Certainly the celebration of Christmas is not a continuation of the pagan holiday. It is a unique Christian observance hailing the birth of Jesus Christ.

Moreover, December 25 is especially fitting in that it comes four days after the winter solstice. **As the days grow longer with more light, Christians rejoice in the hope of the world in the birth of him who called himself the Light of the World. **G. H. Montgomery wrote, “Church leaders saw in the birth of Jesus a triumph of light over darkness, spring over winter and of life over death. What more appropriate time could have been selected to commemorate the birth of the Man whose life, teachings and vicarious death were to change the trends of history, cause light to shine out of darkness and offer light to those who dwell in the valley of death! It will be good to keep these things in mind as you observe Christmas.”

God isn’t against Christmas. God is in favor of Christmas–of the proper observance of the holiday, that is. God planned and executed the first Christmas. No matter how flagrantly men may abuse this holiday, they cannot rob devout believers of its wonder and glory as expressed by the angel of old, “Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord” (Luke 2:10, 11).

answers.org/holidays/isgodaginxmas.html

 

[Petergee]

:tsktsk: It’s the Bible’s definition that you disagree with!
December 25th birthday’s of antiquity that had virgin births\star in the east\3 kings:

Horus 3000 BC – Egypt
Attus 1200 BC – Greece
Mithra 1200 BC – Persia
Krishna 900 BC – India
Dionysus 500 BC – Greece
Jesus 1 AD – Nazareth (according the the Roman Catholic Church)

Tabcom, I gather that you call yourself some type of Christian. Do you realise that this story you have regurgitated, which is totally false in every respect (not one of the pagan gods you mentioned was believed to have been born of a virgin nor born on 25 December, nor had a Bethlehem type star that led 3 kings) was invented by a 19th century militant atheist in an effort to stamp out Christianity? And is considered ridiculous by all serious historians and scholars of comparative religion?

 

[Eileen_T]

tabcom:

It’s the Bible’s definition that you disagree with!

Sorry, I was in a hurry. It is man’s greed for more than is our appointed lot which causes us to worship at the “altar” of the false gods we set up to replace the One True God…lust, wealth, power, recognition etc… For Eve it was to “be as God”.

In our pride and disobedience we seek false gods to replace the void within that Augustine, I think, described as “the God-Shaped hole.”* “You have created us for yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until we rest in Thee.”*

 

[Eileen_T]

Just a reminder as to the OP of this thread.

Now that Christmas is almost here I am sure that most of us, who are Catholic, have entered into a discussion with a fellow Christian who is a “Fundamentalist” Protestant and inevitably our fellow Christian will ask the question, “Where is that in the Bible?”

The other day I was in a discussion with a friend about Mary and the “Immaculate Conception” (hardly surprising given the season we are now in - liturgical and shopping) and of coarse she asked me where was the Immaculate Conception stated in the Bible.
My response was if she truly knew her scripture she would know it was in the Chapter that immediately proceeds the list of canonical books of the New Testament.

It was a simple answer, some would say simplistic, but it introduced **my point that Revelation does come from Scripture but not Scripture alone. **I am sure most of us have all used this response at one time or another in a similar conversation but why isn’t this the standard reply for we Catholics? It, at least in my experience, opens up a whole new avenue for diologue (actually it also tends to end the conversation rather quickly).

The answer is that the first and foremost we Catholics need to address is that of Authority. If God the Son, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity gave Peter authority over the Church that He, God, established, with the power to bind and loose, a power that would be acknowledged and ratified in Heaven, then anything the Church declares to be True or False* is *True or False.

It is not even about whether the gates of hell will not prevail against thee, so much as "I am with you always, even until the ends of the earth." If Jesus got that wrong, He got everything wrong and stands convicted as a fraud.

Catholics believe He got it right, Protestants don’t.

 

[TOME]

Eileen T,

For a while now I have been watching this thread develop with a combination of amusement and amazement wondering if and when someone would remember what the thread was all about.

Thanks for doing just that, but it will be interesting to see if others are as perceptive as you.

Tome

 

[tabcom]

Just to clarify, Tabcom, the Catholic Church . . . .

guanophore . . . you aren’t saying anything that hasn’t already been stated. The discussion has moved past that.

No one knows for sure what day He was born.

It’s not His birth certificate that I’m trying to authenticate. Can someone provide a historical record from antiquity that Jesus, the man, ever existed?

 

[tabcom]

And is considered ridiculous by all serious historians and scholars of comparative religion?

Petergee . . . I’m not going to chomp on your bait. I don’t want to be distracted from my fundamental question. If you would be so kind as to provide a citation from one of your serious historians and scholars as to a historical record from antiquity that Jesus, the man, ever existed, it would be most helpful.

 

[tabcom]

Certainly the celebration of Christmas is not a continuation of the pagan holiday. It is a unique Christian observance hailing the birth of Jesus Christ.

There in lies the cognitive dissonance. Without any documentation from a secular source, Jesus never lived. It then becomes mythology. Not unlike the mythology of Horus,
Attus, Mithra, Krishna, or Dionysus. All of which were said to be born on December 25th.

G. H. Montgomery wrote, "Church leaders saw in the birth of Jesus a triumph of light over darkness, spring over winter and of life over death.

IMHO, those same Church leaders were very familiar with the mythology of Horus.

returning to zeitgeistthemovie.com:

“Broadly speaking, the story of Horus is as follows: Horus was born on December 25th [S14] [S15] of the virgin Isis-Meri.[S16] [S17] [S18] [D] [M] His birth was accompanied by a star in the east [S19], which in turn, three kings followed to locate and adorn the new-born savior [M] [S20] [S21] At the age of 12, he was a prodigal child teacher, and at the age of 30 [S22] [S23] he was baptized by a figure known as Anup [M] and thus began his ministry[S24] [M]. Horus had 12 disciples[S25] he traveled about with, performing miracles[S26] [S27]such as healing the sick[S28] and walking on water[S29]. Horus was known by many gestural names such as The Truth, The Light, God’s Annointed Son, The Good Shepherd, The Lamb of God, and many others[S30] [S31]. After being betrayed by Typhon[S32], Horus was crucified[S33] [S34], buried for 3 days[S35], and thus, resurrected.[S36] [S37] [M].”

[S14] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Page 39-40
[S15] - Septehenses, Clerk De.: Religions. of the Ancient. Greeks, p. 214.
[S16] - Doane, Thomas.: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 327-328
[S17] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Page 40
[S18] - Hall, Manly P.: The Secret Teachings of All Ages, 1928. Page 53-56 [Chapter 7: “Isis, the Virgin of the World”]
[S19] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Page 12-13
[S20] - Jackson, John: Christianity before Christ, AAP, p111-113
[S21] -Walker, Barbara: Women’s Encyplodia of Myths and Secrets, p. 748-754
[S22] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Pages 56-61
[S23] - Massey, Gerald.: Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Pages 613-620
[S24] - Massey, Gerald. :Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Pages 614
[S25] - Massey, Gerald.: Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Pages 600-607
[S26] - Doane, Thomas.: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 256, 273
[S27] - Massey, Gerald.: Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Pages 623-661
[S28] - Massey, Gerald.: Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Page 626
[S29] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Pages 74-75
[S30] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. Page 115
[S31] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Pages 43-47
[S32] - Acharya S.: Suns of God , Adventures Unlimited Press, 2004. Page 93
[S33] - Churchward, Albert: The Origin & Evolution of Religion, Page 135
[S34] - Bonswick, James: Egyption Belief and Modern Thought, p. 157
[S35] - Massey, Gerald.: Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Page 628-629
[S36] - Doane, Thomas: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 222- 223
[S37] - Bonswick, James: Egyption Belief and Modern Thought, p. 150-155, 178

 

[guanophore]

guanophore . . . you aren’t saying anything that hasn’t already been stated. The discussion has moved past that. It’s not His birth certificate that I’m trying to authenticate. Can someone provide a historical record from antiquity that Jesus, the man, ever existed?

OIC, perhaps I am a bit behind on reading the posts. I am surprised that you would ask this question, tabcom, since you are clearly already pursuaded as to the answer. i am also confused what it has to do with this thread.

I have always been intrigued by the statement of Seutonious:

“Since the Jews were constantly causing disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome.”
- Suetonius, Lives of the Caesars - Claudius 5.25.4 (c. 120 CE)

from Jesus Outside the New Testament

mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/sources.html

There in lies the cognitive dissonance.

How so? Are you in doubt about the historical Jesus, because you are not aware of any non-biblical sources? How is it a secular source carries more validity to you than a religious one?

Without any documentation from a secular source, Jesus never lived. It then becomes mythology.

I don’t agree with your premise, but in either case, I guess it is a good thing that we have a plethora of secular sources!

 

[Petergee]

Tabcom, you are a time-waster. You claim you don’t want to be “distracted” by a false theory which YOU brought up, then in the next post you continue at length with the wacky theory, and introduce another one, the silly “Jesus never existed”. I see no point in continuing to poiunt out the facts to you as you seem determinedly uninterested. If you do ever want to investigate the real facts of history you might be interested in eg
catholic.com/library/is_catholicism_pagan.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911chap.asp

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Tabcom: if you had been in the Garden of Eden instead of Adam and eve would you have eaten of the Tree of life or would you have considered eating its fruit to be a form of worship?

God Bless Jesus the Tree of Life!

Does that make me a “Tree Worshiper”?

 

[tabcom]

I have always been intrigued by the statement of Seutonious:

“Since the Jews were constantly causing disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome.”
- Suetonius, Lives of the Caesars - Claudius 5.25.4 (c. 120 CE)

Regretfully, the word Chrestus is is a reference to a title not a name.

From the website you provided (most insightful, thank you):

“A short note on the name ‘Chrestus’: From the examination of the Greek for Chrestus and Christos I have observed that the former is a common slave name which has the basic meaning of ‘good’ and the latter derived from the rare Greek word (rare or just closest?) ‘to anoint’ and thus Christos is the best match for the Aramaic word ‘messiah’ - which also, essentially means ‘anointed one’ with the Jewish associations of king, etc. What may be important is that while both names basically mean something different from each other they are, I have read, phonetically the same.”
- Mark Carlin

“‘Chrestus’ is the correct Latin form of a very common Greek name and is not a misspelling, but some scholars believe that Seutonius meant to use ‘Christos’ instead. One problem with this (if indeed Seutonius was referring to Christ) is that the context of the passage suggests that someone named Chrestus was living in Rome at the time, a century after Jesus. Kee and Wells get around this problem by assuming that Seutonius was referring to Christian preachers who were announcing that the Messiah in Jesus was coming. Kee (Jesus in History) also adds that Suetonius may have had his dates confused and was instead referring to the actual disturbances that occurred during the reign of Tiberius (14-37 CE). Wells (The Jesus of the Early Christians) is not as generous and sticks closer to the known in that ‘Chrestus’ was probably an agitator who emerged from the Roman ghetto proclaiming himself as the Messiah. Messianic fervor ran high during the time of the fall of Jerusalem (70 CE) and this is a highly likely explanation. In any case, it is very difficult to construe from Suetonius anything that even remotely speaks to the historicity of Jesus.”
- James Still, “Biblical and Extrabiblical Sources for Jesus”

How is it a secular source carries more validity to you than a religious one?

I dont’ think that is the proper question. I believe the proper question is, ‘What is the danger of creating a religious myth that can never be challenged’? Is it possible that the danger is that it empowers those who know the truth but use the myth to manipulate and control societies.

tabcom, since you are clearly already pursuaded as to the answer.

I’m leaving open the possibles of being dis-pursuaded. But that is going to take a lot of time digesting the historical record and being open minded to the data.

I do appreciate the link you provided. I will study it in detail – as with all the others submitted.

 

[tabcom]

Earliest Christianity - G. A. Wells (1999)

"It is almost universally accepted that Jesus lived in the opening decades of the first century, taught certain doctrines in Galilee, worked there what were at any rate taken for miracles, and died in Jerusalem, at the behest of the Roman governor Pontius Pilate.

I have reiterated that none of this is told of Jesus in the extant Christian epistles (Pauline and other) which are either earlier than the gospels or early enough to have been written independently of them. This discrepancy is particularly striking when behaviour or teaching ascribed to him in the gospels has obvious relevance to the concerns being persued by the writers of these epistles. The New Testament scholar Professor Graham Stanton frankly calls it ‘baffling’ that Paul fails to ‘refer more frequently and at greater length to the actions and teaching of Jesus’, particularly at points where ‘he might well have clinched his argument by doing so’.
**
There is, then, a discrepancy between the earliest documents (additionally to the genuine Paulines, three post-Paulines ascribed to Paul (2 Thessalonians, Colossians and Ephesians) and also the letter to the Hebrews, the epistle of James, the first epistle of Peter, the three epistles of John and the book of Revelation.) that should not be brushed aside**."

George Albert Wells (b. 1926), is an Emeritus Professor of German at Birkbeck, University of London. He is best known as an advocate of the theory that Jesus is a largely mythical rather than a historical figure.

 

[epostle]

The custom of decorating a tree at Christmas time began with Martin Luther, who is said to have been inspired by a star lit sky. so what. It’s a harmless custom, and more a cultural symbol than a religious one. I always thought the lights on a tree symbolized the angels announcing the good news to the shepherds in the fields.
Those who claim a Christmas tree is an idol are the same ones who think that anything made of physical matter cannot be used for religious purposes. It’s a mix of Gnosticism (all matter is evil) and Iconoclasm: sacreligious acts on religious objects beginning with the Muslems in the 7th century. Iconoclasm was mortally wounded by the Church and reared it’s ugly head again 1000 years later with the so called reformation, where pricelss works of art were destroyed, churches sacked, crucifixes and Nativity scenes were smashed, tombs of saints were burned ‘in the name of God’.

 

[Eileen_T]

Eileen T,

For a while now I have been watching this thread develop with a combination of amusement and amazement wondering if and when someone would remember what the thread was all about.

Thanks for doing just that, but it will be interesting to see if others are as perceptive as you.

Tome

Obviously not.

BTW, I thought your response to her was rather good and I will try it sometime (with a big grin). I am working with some very sincere non-C men and we frequently bring up Scripture when appropriate, such as when there is an ethical issue.

It sure challenges me to be able to come up with Scriptural backups for what Catholics believe. At the very least, I have a better knowledge of Scripture now and study it frequently.

 

[tabcom]

Earliest Christianity - G. A. Wells (1999)

Moreover, it is not just that the early documents are silent about so much of Jesus that came to be recorded in the gospels, but that they view him in a substantially different way – as a basically supernatural personage only obscurely on Earth as a man at some unspecified period in the past, ‘emptied’ then of all his supernatural attributes (Phil.2:7), and certainly not a worker of prodigious miracles which made him famous throughout ‘all Syria’ (Mt.4:24). I have argued that there is good reason to believe that the Jesus of Paul was constructed largely from musing and reflecting on a supernatural ‘Wisdom’ figure, amply documented in the earlier Jewish literature, who sought an abode on Earth, but was there rejected, rather than from information concerning a recently deceased historical individual. The influence of the Wisdom literature is undeniable; only assessment of what it amounted to still divides opinion.

Phil 2:7
Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance,

 

[juliamajor]

this thread is so off from what it started out as that I’m amazed the"moderator" hasn’t stepped in.