A Funny Thing Happened

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Thank you.

First, I am a “He.”

Second, I did mean funny ironic. It’s also a tribute/satire of the 1966 movie “A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum” staring Zero Mostel.

Ah, I was in that musical in high school! Your thread’s name actually did remind me of the musical’s title, but I thought it was just a coincidence.

Now, let’s assume for a moment that she has in fact committed a mortal sin (again we can’t say for sure, but for the sake of discussion let’s assume she has). Following Church rules despite all the good she may have done as a Lutheran, she is not in good graces with God because of that mortal sin. Right?

Right. If her leaving the Catholic Church, grave matter in itself, was done with full knowledge and full consent, then unless she repents before death, her soul would be lost.

Please observe, though, that “full knowledge” means just that: full knowledge that the action you’re committing is wrong. In this case (an act of heresy or schism), she would need to know that she is abandoning Christ’s Church on earth, the Catholic Church, and His Church’s true Orthodox faith.

If she does not know this, then she doesn’t know she’s turning her back on Christ’s Church, and she’s not sufficiently culpable for her action to qualify as mortal sin. All three criteria - grave matter, full knowledge, full consent - must be met for a sin to be mortal.

If she does know this, then yes, it’s a mortal sin. If she knows that it’s Christ’s Church she’s leaving, it shouldn’t take a genius to figure out why that’s mortally wrong. It amounts to saying, “I know that the fullness of the faith lies in the Catholic Church, which is Christ’s Church on earth, but in spite of that knowledge I am going elsewhere. I want what I cannot have in that church (i.e. ordination), and if I get to have what I want, I’m willing to leave Jesus for it.”

And no, that thought wouldn’t have to be quite so… conscious and explicit for one to be guilty of it nonetheless. And she’s certainly culpable if she is responsible for losing that knowledge… if she slowly let it drift away from her, if she honestly convinced herself, or let herself be convinced, that the fullness of Christ’s Church lies elsewhere.

Even so, however, I’m sure you can see why presuming that Karen is guilty of heresy and schism is, objectively speaking, an offense against the virtue of charity.

Catholics are called to balance both sides of the equation: pray for her, don’t assume she’ll get to heaven when she might not, and don’t presume on God’s mercy. On the other hand, we must simultaneously be hard on ourselves and easy on others, like Karen, in our judgments.

Christ is the measure for which we must strive. On the Day of Judgment, the fact that we did better than Jack but worse than Bob won’t matter. He is the Vine and we are the branches. Whether Karen has severed her branch has no bearing on whether we have.

 

[fix]

Good point. Honestly though, as I mentioned earlier, I had persons I trusted as authoritative in the Church (clergy) who basically told me that it was okay for me to do certain things against Church teaching. These same clergy were those who taught me Church teaching. In many cases, I didn’t know I was not following Gods way because of that poor Catechizing. So the question remains, was she taught false doctrines by some of her fellow nuns? If, like me, she was lead astray, what culpability do those clergy that lead the way hold? Plenty I suppose.

Oh, I understand I just wanted to try an explain
why the Church teaches as She does. I do
not to want make determinations about anyone’s
conscience.

IOW, the truth is Church teaching is not mean
or punitive.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

It seemed to me that you are trying to determine if you will stay Catholic, although you didn’t say that in so many words, but your name and other things on your profile suggest it.

I have thought about it, but the ol’ Catholic Guilt seems to keep me from leaving. That’s why I describe myself as a “Lost Sheep” and cynical. Yes, I have differences with the Church but rather than dismissing them out of hand, I’m trying to better understand them. Not just what we believe but why be believe.

I too have several friends from high school I still keep in contact with and a number of them have left the Church. The common denominator seems to be that the Church has “too many rules.” I figure this means one of two things: Either they think the “rules” are so numerous, so complicated and so ambiguous that they feel it is impossible to follow them, or maybe they simply do not like the rules and think that leaving the Church means they are no longer bound by them. Interestingly, they all have remained “religious” to some degree and continue to pray, etc.

My original point though, was a sincere concern for Karen’s soul. I tend to see things in Black and White, and maybe that is wrong but either she has committed a sin or she she hasn’t. Not judging here; I’m just sayin’. But I’ve never understood how a sin - even a mortal sin - completely separates us from God. When I was a kid I did things that my parents didn’t like but that didn’t mean I stopped loving them.

Why does a relationship with God have to be a all-or-nothing proposition?

 

[mountee]

“Why does a relationship with God have to be a all-or-nothing proposition?”

Boy, I wish I knew the answer to that one, the truth is I certainly don’t. One of the things I have had to do is stop thinking and start living in “faith”. I may be older than you and reached the place where that is a lot easier to do now that I am older, I am 61. I had to give up on trying to understand everything, I couldn’t. My friends who left the Church are also a mixed group but mostly still involved in church somewhere, but they were the ones that drove me to where I am at now. Either leave or embrace the faith and get on with it. That is what I have chosen to do and I finally have some peace. I believe that faith is one of the most difficult things to have in this world but I am blessed to have it more of the time then when I don’t. If you don’t mind let’s pray together that each of us can grow in faith, let the Holy Spirit fill us full of it and guide us to the place of perfect rest in faith in God. Thanks for posting.

 

[St_Donatus]

I have thought about it, but the ol’ Catholic Guilt seems to keep me from leaving. That’s why I describe myself as a “Lost Sheep” and cynical. Yes, I have differences with the Church but rather than dismissing them out of hand, I’m trying to better understand them. Not just what we believe but why be believe.

I too have several friends from high school I still keep in contact with and a number of them have left the Church. The common denominator seems to be that the Church has “too many rules.” I figure this means one of two things: Either they think the “rules” are so numerous, so complicated and so ambiguous that they feel it is impossible to follow them, or maybe they simply do not like the rules and think that leaving the Church means they are no longer bound by them. Interestingly, they all have remained “religious” to some degree and continue to pray, etc.

My original point though, was a sincere concern for Karen’s soul. I tend to see things in Black and White, and maybe that is wrong but either she has committed a sin or she she hasn’t. Not judging here; I’m just sayin’. But I’ve never understood how a sin - even a mortal sin - completely separates us from God. When I was a kid I did things that my parents didn’t like but that didn’t mean I stopped loving them.

Why does a relationship with God have to be a all-or-nothing proposition?

What we think of as ‘rules’ are generally what one would naturally do, if their mind was in line with Gods. Yes there are other rules, such as Holy days, don’t eat meat on Fridays, etc, but they have a reason too. I really believe that these kind of rules are like spiritual vitamins. We eat every day but we take our vitamins to give our bodies that extra boost to make it healthy. When we follow these ‘rules’ of the church, we are taking our spiritual vitamins that give our spirituality that extra boost it needs. Many Catholic obey the rule, without really taking advantage of it. They go to church on holy days but don’t dwell on the lesson that these Holy days can teach us. It is like taking our vitamins out of the bottle, then throwing them in the trash instead of taking them.

Being a revert, I can feel the special advantages I gain from the additional rules that other churches don’t have. For example, when I was evangelical it seemed like the preacher was saying the same sermon every week, then we would have a song, and study the Bible in a very shallow way. The only thing that was spiritually inspiring was the ‘Revivals’ once a year. With the Catholic Church we are surrounded by inspirational gifts (rules) that when taken advantage of, help us move closer to God and spiritual contentment.

 

[Portrait]

…at my recent High School reunion. (Catholic High school).

When I was in school, I had a female friend (I’ll call Karen) who had always aspired to be come a nun. She always conducted herself in a “religious” manner, dressed conservatively even for Catholic school, and could often been seen praying her rosary during study hall or in the corner of the library. She felt that she had a calling and everyone respected her for that. She entered a convent as a postulant while still in college and later joined the order. That’s when I lost track of her.

Fast forward 35 years. At our reunion, we saw each in the hallway and immediately ran to each other and had a big hug. I said “It’s good to see you Karen, or I guess it’s ‘Sister Karen’ now.”

She said “Not any more.”

Huh?

“I’m a Lutheran minister now.”

I was completely flabbergasted! All those years she aspired to join the Sisters, but later decided it wasn’t leading her in what she felt was the right direction; particularly on the issue or ordaining women.

As we talked more, it became evident to me that she is happy where she is now. She has her own church in Colorado, she is well-liked by her congregation, and takes great joy in her ministry. She sincerely believes this is where she belongs and is at peace with herself.

So since she has left the Catholic Church, tell me again why she is going to Hell. After all, in the eyes of the Church, she has committed a mortal sin.

Dear Lost_Sheep,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

First, dear friend, the fullest abundance of aids to eternal salvation exist within the one true Church established by Christ. This includes the sacraments and other liturgical worship, unity of faith and the communion of prayer and teaching. Having once been enlightened as to the veracity of these great and wonderful blessings, a man would be very foolish and unwise to walk lightly away from them and throw in his lot with say a Protestant ecclesial communion.

Sadly, dear friend, people do drift from their faith in the Catholic Church, for all manner of reasons, but it remains true that no adult Catholic can ‘lose’ their faith in the Church without some degee of moral responsibility before God. However, beyond that I do not think we can go as people must be free follow their conscience and, in any event, ultimately God will be their judge for he alone knoweth their hearts.

In the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (14), the Council put it thus: Whoever, “knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by God through Jesus Christ, would refuse to enter her or to remain in her, could not be saved” (emphasis mine). Our Catechism repeats the same idea (para. 846). Thus, as regards your friend, I think much would depend on the extent of her knowledge of the truth of Catholicism as to how culpable she may be. Certainly, dear friend, whoever knows and believes in conscience that he has a responsibility before God to join or remain in Holy Mother Church, must clearly do so.

Having said that, there are those who were born and reared in the Catholic faith but who, for a variety of reasons, do not remain in it. Sometimes this can be owing to a lack of education, prejudice or a simple refusal to accept certain Catholic teachings or dogma. Ultimately, if they do decide to leave the Church its a matter between them and God and a matter of accountability of their conscience.

God bless and trust that is of some help, dear friend.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

My original point though, was a sincere concern for Karen’s soul. I tend to see things in Black and White, and maybe that is wrong but either she has committed a sin or she she hasn’t. Not judging here; I’m just sayin’.

You’re not wrong: she either has or she hasn’t. But of great importance here is that you and I cannot know if she has.

But I’ve never understood how a sin - even a mortal sin - completely separates us from God. When I was a kid I did things that my parents didn’t like but that didn’t mean I stopped loving them.

Well, it doesn’t “completely separate us from God” in every sense. He still sees us, cares about us, loves us. He still offers us the chance to come back to him. So the separation is far from absolute.

But we can’t partake of the divine nature if we don’t have sanctifying grace in our souls. And mortal sin eliminates from our souls that grace. That’s why even one serious sin can cut one off from God for all eternity, if one dies without repenting for it.

But I firmly believe, Lost Sheep, that no one goes to hell on a technicality. We are all offered the chance to repent before we die. That does not, of course, justify presuming on God’s mercy.

 

[Inwe86]

…at my recent High School reunion. (Catholic High school).

When I was in school, I had a female friend (I’ll call Karen) who had always aspired to be come a nun. She always conducted herself in a “religious” manner, dressed conservatively even for Catholic school, and could often been seen praying her rosary during study hall or in the corner of the library. She felt that she had a calling and everyone respected her for that. She entered a convent as a postulant while still in college and later joined the order. That’s when I lost track of her.

Fast forward 35 years. At our reunion, we saw each in the hallway and immediately ran to each other and had a big hug. I said “It’s good to see you Karen, or I guess it’s ‘Sister Karen’ now.”

She said “Not any more.”

Huh?

“I’m a Lutheran minister now.”

I was completely flabbergasted! All those years she aspired to join the Sisters, but later decided it wasn’t leading her in what she felt was the right direction; particularly on the issue or ordaining women.

As we talked more, it became evident to me that she is happy where she is now. She has her own church in Colorado, she is well-liked by her congregation, and takes great joy in her ministry. She sincerely believes this is where she belongs and is at peace with herself.

So since she has left the Catholic Church, tell me again why she is going to Hell. After all, in the eyes of the Church, she has committed a mortal sin.

Maybe instead of speculating about the state of her soul, pray for her that she comes back to the Catholic Faith. Also, just because she seems happy and at peace, doesn’t mean she is actually happy. You don’t know what is going on inside.