A gay Mormon married a woman.... curious about the morality aspect on this

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What is it you are saying here? I ask a question of someone and then you ask me to provide an answer that I have asked someone else. How is it you believe that someone can answer a question posed to someone else? Help me understand.
Hopefully you can forgive me for butting in. Are you saying you won’t answer the same questions you pose to others?
This statement is in reference to the notion of sexual orientation is immutable and unchangeable=Essentialism. I am not required to refute a belief. Beliefs are thoughts that are accepted with a basis that exists in the mind. Essentiallism is a thought. I find no information in the environment nor in my mind that allows me to accept it therefore it remains a thought and not a belief. Do you believe in Essentialism and if so why?
I believe that most people have a sexual orientation that isn’t going to change. Call that what you will.

Do you believe sexual orientation is an emotion?
Dare not, I have given you links to articles,
And I’ve voiced my opinion as to where I find them lacking.
Nicolosi’s book…have you read it?..
No, and I’m not going to.
and in my experience when someone wants to know something bad enough they do their best to find out…or at least find out what they do or do not know…
Right. And in my experience, when someone has read a book and uses it over and over as evidence, they can usually articulate the evidence in more ways than, “read it yourself.”
 
Hopefully you can forgive me for butting in. Are you saying you won’t answer the same questions you pose to others?

I believe that most people have a sexual orientation that isn’t going to change. Call that what you will.

Do you believe sexual orientation is an emotion?

And I’ve voiced my opinion as to where I find them lacking.

No, and I’m not going to.

Right. And in my experience, when someone has read a book and uses it over and over as evidence, they can usually articulate the evidence in more ways than, “read it yourself.”
Kolbe,
I don’t believe that, for the majority of cases, that it is possible for a person to modify themselves to such an extent that they experience sexual desires that are opposite to the ones they experienced previously.
I asked questions concerning this statement. Those questions were…
How is it you can state that your belief of the majority of cases is as you say?
You know all the data about the Majority?
You have information that no one else has about the Majority?
How do you claim to be able to speak for the Majority?
How is it you expect me to answer these questions as I did not make this statement?
I believe that most people have a sexual orientation that isn’t going to change. Call that what you will.
Do you believe sexual orientation is an emotion?
You then accept Essentialism and there is no proof for this.

I believe that sexual orientation is an internal state that is modified by emotion and expressed in action.
Right. And in my experience, when someone has read a book and uses it over and over as evidence, they can usually articulate the evidence in more ways than, “read it yourself.”
You have a peculiar way of getting information and expressing yourself…do as you will. Read, don’t read, investigate, do not investigate…look for answers from someone that satisfies your desire to know what it is you want to know.
 
Yeah cos prayer is not efficacious at all and God has no power:rolleyes:
Hark, a man of straw I see. Oh, thou hath made it, for me?

Oh it certainly can work, it just needs God to agree for it to happen. God isn’t Santa, he doesn’t run fly around handing presents to everyone who wants one.
 
Hark, a man of straw I see. Oh, thou hath made it, for me?

Oh it certainly can work, it just needs God to agree for it to happen. God isn’t Santa, he doesn’t run fly around handing presents to everyone who wants one.
Ah good so you agree God has power to heal and change 👍
 
Hark, a man of straw I see. Oh, thou hath made it, for me?

Oh it certainly can work, it just needs God to agree for it to happen. God isn’t Santa, he doesn’t run fly around handing presents to everyone who wants one.
DR,

Pray away the Gay doesn’t work…

Who is praying…? Someone that believes in God or does not believe in God? What is the reason for the prayer?

To suggest that someone can pray away the gay needs definition…

Does Gay=SSA, or having acted on SSA once, many times or become totally accepting of the Gay as a lifestyle and then after sometime wanting to pray…

Nothing works
All things work
Some things work for some people sometimes but not always

What does not work is to be Gay, in the lifestyle and pray for anything but the grace to repent…
 
Ah good so you agree God has power to heal and change 👍
At no point did I assert that God was powerless or apathetic.
DR,

Pray away the Gay doesn’t work…

Who is praying…? Someone that believes in God or does not believe in God? What is the reason for the prayer?

To suggest that someone can pray away the gay needs definition…

Does Gay=SSA, or having acted on SSA once, many times or become totally accepting of the Gay as a lifestyle and then after sometime wanting to pray…

Nothing works
All things work
Some things work for some people sometimes but not always

What does not work is to be Gay, in the lifestyle and pray for anything but the grace to repent…
People who absolutely believe in the existence of God and his divine mercy while devoutly Catholic in complete obedience to the Church as far as they know praying for their exclusive attraction to the same sex to go away and to be replaced by an attraction to the opposite sex.
 
At no point did I assert that God was powerless or apathetic.

People who absolutely believe in the existence of God and his divine mercy while devoutly Catholic in complete obedience to the Church as far as they know praying for their exclusive attraction to the same sex to go away and to be replaced by an attraction to the opposite sex.
DR,

and God always gives you what you need and answers prayer in His time not ours…patience is a virtue…🙂
 
If you refuse to read the link, then your argument has no standing and has no relationship to what is being discussed.

The substance of my post still stands.

In other words you imply his conclusion that was drawn from the context was inaccurate. If that’s the case, then my contribution is not relevant to the context, true, but it is to the conclusion in the third person, since it becomes objective by the use of my “If” of my introductory paragraph.

I also make sufficient provision by using present and past tense in my post to make it readily applicable to most, but not all hypothetical situations.

I came across an article in which a man who is a Mormon and who calls himself gay is happily married to a woman.

It is reasonable to conclude that if he calls himself gay(this too is uncharitable), then he qualifies himself as homosexual, just as someone who calls himself a psychiatrist qualifies himself for the position of psychiatry, and we can in charity assume that he is, rather than not.

*you would have read that this man has not acted out on his homosexual urges either before or during his marriage. *

That doesn’t fault me. The conclusion did not jibe with the context, this is what is at fault, nor was my trusting the information which I believed was true.

*So you are saying that a marriage in which a man is married to a woman and is committed to her and only to her and has conceived children with her is an offence to God? Please explain your reasoning.
*

The reasoning isn’t mine.

In the context I presented it, yes. My context was where the husband was obstinate and complacent in homosexual sin and still married. There is even greater consequence in this condition. A person now severed from the friendship with God(given the conditions for capital sin), does not receive any acknowledgement for the good he does, even if it’s a lifetime of good deeds. When his friendship is restored, then he gains that recognition retroactively. All the more importance for confession in that state. All those baptized can confess to a priest, including protestants.

A spouse consecrates his/her partner through the Sacrament of Marriage. It is vital, since we have a holy bond, that each partner support the other in ensuring no capital sins becomes a barrier to their heavenly partnership. The wife should not be complacent to the husband’s, and the husband’s to the wife’s transgressions. She/he must take a stance against either’s sins.

I said “Regardless of how nonchalant she may view it, it is an offense to God and for the time being so is her attitude”.

True hypothetically or actually if it applies,and is explained in the previous paragraph.

I strongly urge you to read the link with an open mind before you comment further on this thread.

Not at the expense of assuming a poster would deliberately lie in his post on a Catholic forum.

Thanks anyway for the suggestion. 🙂
 
I once dated (seriously) a young man whose father was gay. He knew he had SSA when he married and fought it for 20 years and through 6 children. When he reached middle age, his youthful optimism had worn off and he just couldn’t face life “missing out” on experiencing love with another man. They went through two rounds of marriage encounter, and a few other counseling retreats, plus marriage counseling, trying to preserve their marriage.

Finally they divorced, and the family was devastated. Some of the kids refused to interact with the father, even ones who had had a closer relationship than the other kids. Some kids were furious with mom for not leaving dad as soon as she found out before dragging 6 children into the mix. The kids took sides, fought among themselves, and all needed counseling. In general - it was a big, fat disaster.

I would strongly think twice by advising any gay person to attempt a marriage with the opposite sex. What sounds good to a young person might not really be viable over the long years of a marriage and bringing children into that… it can be awful. I know how wounded and emotionally unstable my boyfriend became from it all – I think it had a lot to do with why he had so much trouble with relationships himself.
 
Regular,

Read the blog again…
Okay, before I respond to your points, I’d like to note that my initial post was responding to you stating that someone labelling themselves as gay was the same as them claiming that homosexuality is innate. I wasn’t trying to defend the man in the blog, though I may have inadvertently done so. I shall now consciously defend him, though, for some reason.
This part of me. Who I really am…
Still doesn’t mean he think it’s innate. Someone could consider a political view, a religious belief, or a hobby to be part of who they are and part of their identity, but that doesn’t mean those views couldn’t be subject to change.
Accepted as knowledge.
Explain how the fact that he realised he was sexually attracted to men at some point in his life means he believes homosexuality is innate? Also, notice that he realised he liked men during puberty. Surely this supports the idea that homosexuality isn’t innate more than anything?
What is it you believe he is saying non-biologic members? A man and a woman are to be married. This man says he is gay and married to a woman and then says that his family is with a NON-BIOLOGIC member=born that way…biologically…different…
Your use of written language is interesting, to say the least, but I managed to decipher what you’ve written and I do believe you’ve misunderstood what the man wrote. The lesbian psychiatrist implied that his marriage was not genuine as he was a homosexual. His reply to that was not in anyway in defence of homosexuality, or the idea that homosexuality is innate. Rather, he was almost mocking the lesbian, and wasn’t talking about his family but hers. He stated that homosexual families are not genuine, as they cannot reproduce and have to settle for adopting children. He then went back on this statement, as of course because a family contains adopted children it doesn’t mean the family is any less valid. That’s what he was referring to when he said ‘non-biological’ - adopted children. He wasn’t making a statement about homosexuality being innate.
If you don’t choose something then how does it happen?
You probably misunderstood again. He was stating that you don’t choose to have same-sex attraction, but you do choose to act on it. Surely you would agree?
I think he is totally wrong and I infer as infer.

Help me understand how you can read this differently?
Forgive me as I am not trying to insult you when I say this, but I actually understood what he was writing while you didn’t seem to at all. You were picking things up from the text that he clearly wasn’t writing about.
 
Okay, before I respond to your points, I’d like to note that my initial post was responding to you stating that someone labelling themselves as gay was the same as them claiming that homosexuality is innate. I wasn’t trying to defend the man in the blog, though I may have inadvertently done so. I shall now consciously defend him, though, for some reason.

Still doesn’t mean he think it’s innate. Someone could consider a political view, a religious belief, or a hobby to be part of who they are and part of their identity, but that doesn’t mean those views couldn’t be subject to change.

Explain how the fact that he realised he was sexually attracted to men at some point in his life means he believes homosexuality is innate? Also, notice that he realised he liked men during puberty. Surely this supports the idea that homosexuality isn’t innate more than anything?

Your use of written language is interesting, to say the least, but I managed to decipher what you’ve written and I do believe you’ve misunderstood what the man wrote. The lesbian psychiatrist implied that his marriage was not genuine as he was a homosexual. His reply to that was not in anyway in defence of homosexuality, or the idea that homosexuality is innate. Rather, he was almost mocking the lesbian, and wasn’t talking about his family but hers. He stated that homosexual families are not genuine, as they cannot reproduce and have to settle for adopting children. He then went back on this statement, as of course because a family contains adopted children it doesn’t mean the family is any less valid. That’s what he was referring to when he said ‘non-biological’ - adopted children. He wasn’t making a statement about homosexuality being innate.

You probably misunderstood again. He was stating that you don’t choose to have same-sex attraction, but you do choose to act on it. Surely you would agree?

Forgive me as I am not trying to insult you when I say this, but I actually understood what he was writing while you didn’t seem to at all. You were picking things up from the text that he clearly wasn’t writing about.
Regular,

There is no insult in disagreement and understanding. I understand your view.

Your perception here is worthy of note…
Surely this supports the idea that homosexuality isn’t innate more than anything?
We agree.
 
Have you ever considered that someone who finds part of themself incorrigible might find sublimation more effective measure than suppression?
👍
Oh {prayer} certainly can work, it just needs God to agree for it to happen. God isn’t Santa, he doesn’t run fly around handing presents to everyone who wants one.
If that was the way prayer worked, a lot fewer people would have chronic health problems and a lot more people would own flashy cars.
Someone could consider a political view, a religious belief, or a hobby to be part of who they are and part of their identity, but that doesn’t mean those views couldn’t be subject to change.
E.g. “I am a footballer.”
 
E.g. “I am a footballer.”
A person’s sexual orientation is neither a political belief (although it may inform such beliefs), neither is it a hobby (although the activities associated with it may become so, in the absence of moral guidelines) nor is it a religious belief (which may have something to say about moderating one’s sexual activities).

All these things are in the field of sociology. Sexual instincts are not part of sociology. They are instead part of fundamental personhood.

Nobody chooses their instincts. They do choose to act upon them though. Contrary to what a number of people try to propose, the Church does not condemn instincts as sinful. What it does say is that they can be ‘disordered’ and that they can, if acted upon, lead to something that is intrinsically immoral - but those would be the actions, not the desires.

If anyone tells you that a person’s same-sex-oriented desires are, in and of themselves, sinful, then they are a: lying and b: in disagreement with the Church.
 
A person’s sexual orientation is neither a political belief (although it may inform such beliefs), neither is it a hobby (although the activities associated with it may become so, in the absence of moral guidelines) nor is it a religious belief (which may have something to say about moderating one’s sexual activities).

Contrary to what a number of people try to propose, the Church does not condemn instincts as sinful. What it does say is that they can be ‘disordered’ and that they can, if acted upon, lead to something that is intrinsically immoral - but those would be the actions, not the desires.

If anyone tells you that a person’s same-sex-oriented desires are, in and of themselves, sinful, then they are a: lying and b: in disagreement with the Church.
Dex,
All these things are in the field of sociology. Sexual instincts are not part of sociology. They are instead part of fundamental personhood.
How does someone approach the study of personhood and gain knowledge?

What is it that personhood means? What are all the parameters and how is it someone understands that?

What are innate instincts that you understand are instincts? Are instincts learned or fixed and if so what are they that everyone can say…these following things all accept as instincts. Where does someone get this information?
Nobody chooses their instincts. They do choose to act upon them though.
What are the basic instincts that everyone agrees on and where do you find this information that supplements your understanding of personhood?

Is the concept of personhood something that without explanation everyone agrees on and can say, but of course?

Now, since you have stated that people use information against you and you have stated that you choose not to humor anyone, let me help you out…as someone with a Bachelor of Science in Zoology/Life Science, having studied animal and human behavior…take a look at this thread…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=757904

Those Homosexual Animals…
Let me give you a few examples: I think that they fall into four categories. There are concepts that we now know simply are not true: Fixed Action Patterns fall into this category. Fixed action patterns were a concept from the early days of ethology, mid-20th-century, in which animals were thought to display some behaviors that were absolutely of genetic origin, the classic “hard-wired”
There are concepts that are sort-of, basically true but that we now know are far more complicated, and thus the original terms and concepts simply don’t do the job any more: the Nature vs. Nurture dichotomy falls into this category (as do many dichotomies: the world is not a black and white place). This issue is related to the concept of the fixed action pattern, but this one has taken longer to die. Why? It’s the caveat about being kinda, sorta right. But here the point is that it is not a dichotomy. No matter where we look, it’s a continuum, from highly genetically controlled (but never entirely: see point above) to virtually entirely environmental, what we in applied animal behavior would call ‘learned’, but again, never without a genetic component to the behavior.
Help me understand how you came to believe this, how others can gain that knowledge and understanding and be patient with me and explain it in a way that someone with a life science and human behavior background can grasp.

I wait for your instruction.🙂
 
A person’s sexual orientation is neither a political belief (although it may inform such beliefs), neither is it a hobby (although the activities associated with it may become so, in the absence of moral guidelines) nor is it a religious belief (which may have something to say about moderating one’s sexual activities).
I am in total agreement with you on that. The previous poster said that someone identifying as ___ (insert anything here) doesn’t necessarily indicate whether the speaker believes ___ is something innate/essential/static or not. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn’t. I simply provided an example that would support that point. It was most definitely not a claim that I think “footballer” is analogous to sexual orientation.
Nobody chooses their instincts.
If you think I disagree, I can assure you that you’re quite mistaken. 🙂
the Church does not condemn instincts as sinful.
Of course not. That would be ridiculous.
If anyone tells you that a person’s same-sex-oriented desires are, in and of themselves, sinful, then they are a: lying and b: in disagreement with the Church.
You’re preaching to the choir, Dex.
 
He’s a Mormon. You note he stays clear of his dialogue with his church. What pastoral help as it provided?. It would be interesting to read the Mormon doctrine that supports his acceptance of his condition.
 
Seems to me there are a lot of people who espouse the “damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t” point of view on here. Sadly it seems that some people can’t ever approve of anything a homosexual person does, simply because of their homosexuality.
 
Seems to me there are a lot of people who espouse the “damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t” point of view on here. Sadly it seems that some people can’t ever approve of anything a homosexual person does, simply because of their homosexuality.
Indeed, Dex. It seems to me that he has come to a good understanding of his homosexuality, particularly as it plays out in his faith. While his path is not one that all homosexuals should choose, he has chosen not to live the single life, but to live a chaste life in a relationship with a woman as ordained by God.
 
Seems to me there are a lot of people who espouse the “damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t” point of view on here. Sadly it seems that some people can’t ever approve of anything a homosexual person does, simply because of their homosexuality.
Andy’s right, the question is a valid one, if not for our benefit for other Mormons. Other Mormons may want to know how he found a way to circumvent the instruction in Leviticus, Paul and Peter.

I’m rusty on Mormonism, but if memory serves me they are one of the most severe religions on such an accepted condition. If this is true, never mind the homosexuality, he needs to attend his church more often than he does.

Where is this guy anyways. Get him here so we can discuss.

Mormons are waiting. :rolleyes:
 
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