A God that only created us or a God that gave his life loving us to the extreme?

[jimmy85]

I frankly cant understand why a lot of people convert to agnostism or to ambiguos or new age type of religions, leaving christianism behind, that dispite it is getting more unpopular in the west, it is a religion that has a good moral, and good values.

There are examples of people that are so called christians that make a bad impresion of his religion, however this people are not practicing what Jesus taught them, therefore they are not practicing their religion at all if they are acting negatively.

Therefore religion is about practicing what Jesus taugh. It is a good moral path to choose.

So why do you think christianism is getting so unpopular in the west?

 

[JudieK]

It is unpopular because it calls us to be selfless, which is the opposite of the narcissistic culture of the West. It calls us to TRUST God with every aspect of our lives, which is the opposite of the mindset that says “I have the power to control everything in my life.” It calls us to sacrifice and live simply, in an age of conspicuous consumerism and the cult of materialism and greed. It calls us to live our lives for God instead of our own relentless pursuit of pleasure. It puts limits on our fleshly desires in an age of instant gratification. It claims to possess the “TRUTH,” which is an unbelievably obscene concept in a culture that grew up with “I’m OK, you’re OK.” (moral and theological relativism). The question seems to me, how can it still be flourishing ??? The only answer is, by the Grace of God… He is still turning hearts and winning souls over to His love. We all must be His hands and mouth and heart on earth… together we can make sure there will ALWAYS be followers of Christ on earth… to the end of time.

 

[jimmy85]

Well there is a kind of mistake on your statement. You can be christian and at the same time you can be free.
Marxism has a fundamental way of a “so call” freedom.
for example, I do whatever I feel like.
However we cant attain that sort of so call freedom. There are laws on nature that say that if u do soemthing bad you will deserve a concequence.
For example if u smoke you could have lung cancer , if you drink your liver will be bad etc.

The real freedom is to have control over vices that are the ones that take away the freedom.

There are vices and virtudes.
Virtudes cant take away ower own freedom but vices do can.

 

[JudieK]

I don’t see where my post said you could not be free. True freedom is in Christ. But that doesn’t mean we can skip along in our sinful ways thinking “I can do this because I know I’m already forgiven.” Christ gives us the freedom to rise above these sinful tendancies. We are slaves to sin, thinking we are just “doing what we want.” We are actually trading true freedom for slavery. While we have “free will,” God wants us to choose Him. Choosing other things leads to the natural consequences, along with the spiritual consequence of growing away from God.

 

[KarenNC]

I left Christianity because I realized that I had never truly believed in monotheism, much less Trinitarian monotheism. Pretty much cuts me out from being a Christian, regardless of its moral teachings.

 

[MelanieAnne]

The word is “Christianity”.

 

[jimmy85]

I don’t see where my post said you could not be free. True freedom is in Christ. But that doesn’t mean we can skip along in our sinful ways thinking “I can do this because I know I’m already forgiven.” Christ gives us the freedom to rise above these sinful tendancies. We are slaves to sin, thinking we are just “doing what we want.” We are actually trading true freedom for slavery. While we have “free will,” God wants us to choose Him. Choosing other things leads to the natural consequences, along with the spiritual consequence of growing away from God.

We acknoledge ourselfs all as sinners so I dont get why you say that “we can do stuffs because we are already fogiven”.

 

[cheddarsox]

I frankly cant understand why a lot of people convert to agnostism or to ambiguos or new age type of religions, leaving christianism behind, that dispite it is getting more unpopular in the west, it is a religion that has a good moral, and good values.

There are examples of people that are so called christians that make a bad impresion of his religion, however this people are not practicing what Jesus taught them, therefore they are not practicing their religion at all if they are acting negatively.

Therefore religion is about practicing what Jesus taugh. It is a good moral path to choose.

So why do you think christianism is getting so unpopular in the west?

Many people have become agnostics or ambiguous because they were taught a concept of “God”, that didn’t hold up. They were told “God” loved them, would care for them, answer their prayers, never throw them a situation they couldn’t handle, etc, etc. Then…they didn’t see any evidence of that in their life. So, they come to the conclusion that either “God” is not what they were told, or that “God” doesn’t like them personally, so they see no point in continuing a one sided relationship.

Some New Age ideas offer comfort, and the familiar trappings of religion, others are attractive to disenfranchised Christians because they are so very different from the teachings of Christianity. New Age covers alot of ground, something for everybody, so to speak.

Some people do leave Christianity because of bad personal experiences in Church or with other Christians. If the religion and the relationship with Christ doesn’t transform lives, they see little point in it.

I agree that Christianity offers a great moral system. But one can behave morally outside of the faith as well, and certainly calling oneself Christian doesn’t mean one will follow the moral teachings. Many New Agers keep the teachings of Christ, but drop the idea that he is the one son of God.

I think Christianity is losing ground for many reasons. It is no longer the religion of the state, so it in not “enforced”. More cultures are mixing, bringing their ideas together, and people absorb the ideas of others around them. And, most religions change significantly over time, and eventually die out or become unrecognizable.

Where I live Christianity is alive and well, in certain forms. It is certain forms of Christianity that appear to be on the wane. It seems to be going through a transformation, rather than a die out.

cheddar

 

[KarenNC]

Where I live Christianity is alive and well, in certain forms.

It is definitely alive and well and pervasive, in primarily traditional forms, where I live.

 

[JudieK]

We acknoledge ourselfs all as sinners so I dont get why you say that “we can do stuffs because we are already fogiven”.

Well first, I think you misquoted me. What I said was we can’t skip along merrily sinning because we think we are already forgiven, so it’s all OK. Just acknowledging that we’re sinners isn’t a good excuse. It’s kind of lame, actually. It’s like saying “I’m not capable of anything better… I’m just a sinner. Don’t expect anything more from me.” God expects infinitely more, and He will transform you from the inside out with His grace to make you less and less a sinner and more like Himself. The secret is to die to your sinful desires and learn to live for God first… not wallow in your human sinfulness and think “Well, I’m just a sinner… this is all God expects from me.” It doesn’t mean we will never sin… we all do… but we must quickly repent of that sin and pray for God’s grace to overcome that particular sin and to grow in holiness. God is faithful to his promise. Why else would Jesus tell his followers “Be perfect, like your Father in Heaven is perfect?” We must strive for this holiness here on earth, which will only find its full fruition in Heaven, when we enter the fullness of glory.

 

[IanCorrigan]

I frankly cant understand why a lot of people convert to agnostism or to ambiguos or new age type of religions, leaving christianism behind, that dispite it is getting more unpopular in the west, it is a religion that has a good moral, and good values.

I was raised in a fairly devout protestant household (Church of Christ/Disciples of Christ), and given a good sunday-school education, but the ideas just never took hold in me. I never saw any reason for ‘salvation’, or felt the need to turn my life over to some external divine-ness. I can’t recall that I ever uttered a sincere prayer to Jesus or ‘God’ in my childhood.

However, I did have a real interest in spirituality and religion, and began a search for effective spiritual practice as soon as I began to read about options, as a teen. That lead to my involvement in Neopaganism and polytheism, which have, from the first exposure, seemed more reasonable and more in tune with my own experience than Christianity.

I find Christian moral values often unnatural and improper, personally. I don’t believe that pride is a sin - pride is the just reward of doing well. I don’t believe that sex for pleasure outside of marriage is a sin - our bodies belong to us, and using them for pleasure is a great good. All Pagan thinking agrees that murder and theft are ill - no problem there. Most especially, I think that the doctrine of the depravity of humankind, and the dependence on the grace of the divine for rescue from the flesh is a vile set of doctrines, not worthy of the respect of any thinking adult. It has lead to a great many ills in the world, and little good that I can see.

Monotheism makes no sense to me - there is never just one of anything in the world, and there is plainly more than one divine being. To say otherwise requires convoluted arguments that hold no water. So I just can’t be a part of monotheistic systems, whether christian, muslim or whatever.

Ian

 

[JudieK]

I find Christian moral values often unnatural and improper, personally. I don’t believe that pride is a sin - pride is the just reward of doing well. I don’t believe that sex for pleasure outside of marriage is a sin - our bodies belong to us, and using them for pleasure is a great good. All Pagan thinking agrees that murder and theft are ill - no problem there. Most especially, I think that the doctrine of the depravity of humankind, and the dependence on the grace of the divine for rescue from the flesh is a vile set of doctrines, not worthy of the respect of any thinking adult. It has lead to a great many ills in the world, and little good that I can see.

How can you say that sex outside of marriage just for pleasure harms no one? The evidence is to the contrary. Unwanted pregnancies result in children either being aborted or raised in homes where two parents are not present to give them a balanced upbringing. Uncommitted sex results in broken hearts, betrayed trust, the reduction of a beautiful act to a transaction of bodies taking what they want instead of the self-giving that God intended. Girls today have accepted that “hooking up” is OK- no need to expect love or committment from anyone. This is a great good? I find that this is a horrible trajedy and blow to self-esteem.

I will be back later to discuss more… son is graduating today!

 

[jimmy85]

Many people have become agnostics or ambiguous because they were taught a concept of “God”, that didn’t hold up. They were told “God” loved them, would care for them, answer their prayers, never throw them a situation they couldn’t handle, etc, etc. Then…they didn’t see any evidence of that in their life. So, they come to the conclusion that either “God” is not what they were told, or that “God” doesn’t like them personally, so they see no point in continuing a one sided relationship.

I think that is taugh sometimes on protestans churches, I believe protestans and catholics should have only one theology and one doctrine, in order that the christian doctrine wont seem erronious.

 

[uforever]

I frankly cant understand why a lot of people convert to agnostism or to ambiguos or new age type of religions, leaving christianism behind, that dispite it is getting more unpopular in the west, it is a religion that has a good moral, and good values.

There are examples of people that are so called christians that make a bad impresion of his religion, however this people are not practicing what Jesus taught them, therefore they are not practicing their religion at all if they are acting negatively.

Therefore religion is about practicing what Jesus taugh. It is a good moral path to choose.

So why do you think christianism is getting so unpopular in the west?

God dieing for everyone has an allure to it and a romantic flare to it. But when it gets boiled down to someone who REALLY needs to know the heart truth. The puzzle does not fit. Those who can be satisfied with “its a mystery” will stay and those who dont feel God made our life a "mystery " will leave.

After all that God gave us; why would he then make things " a mystery"?
IMHO The only “mystery” is how the church has stayed in business for so long.

 

[jimmy85]

God dieing for everyone has an allure to it and a romantic flare to it. But when it gets boiled down to someone who REALLY needs to know the heart truth. The puzzle does not fit. Those who can be satisfied with “its a mystery” will stay and those who dont feel God made our life a "mystery " will leave.

After all that God gave us; why would he then make things " a mystery"?
IMHO The only “mystery” is how the church has stayed in business for so long.

Sure then faith wouldnt exist and neither free will, we must be forced to believe and to love against our own will.

I wouldnt use the word “mystery”.
Most of believer wotn use the word mystery to describe God.

St Clement said that God could be found with 3 virtudes: reason, the control of the passions, and love.

However faith is a gift and it comes only through grace.

 

[JudieK]

God is a mystery to us now because He is infinite and we have finite, human brains. We cannot possibly in a million lifetimes begin to know and understand all that God is. If we think we can and should, then we fancy ourselves God. All that we need to know about God has been revealed, through creation, natural law, and through his son, Jesus Christ. All people throughout history have come to know God through creation (the beauty, awe, and majesty of it) and through what we call “natural law”- the basic virtue inate in every human. Other cultures may have tried to put a name to it… because they felt that something greater than themselves was behind it. They were right. In the fullness of time, God sent His son, because humans just weren’t getting it right. We may not know everything, but we have been given what we need to know… a role model. The rest will be revealed on the other side of the veil… in heaven.

For those who felt God didn’t deliver the goods… remember that God isn’t just a big Santa Claus that gives what you want and answers “yes” to all your prayers. God asks something of you, too… your worship, your love, your friendship, and your sacrifice (dying to yourself and putting others first). When you live for God, you will find that He is ever present in your life…and that sometimes his answer is “no.” You will also learn to pray as Jesus did, asking that His will, not yours, be done. God speaks in whispers… He doesn’t force anything. If you’re not listening… you might let the world drown out His voice.

 

[cheddarsox]

Sure then faith wouldnt exist and neither free will, we must be forced to believe and to love against our own will.

I wouldnt use the word “mystery”.
Most of believer wotn use the word mystery to describe God.

St Clement said that God could be found with 3 virtudes: reason, the control of the passions, and love.

However faith is a gift and it comes only through grace.

I think that this is the twisted mess that occurs when we apply human reasoning to an infinite God, people end up making the Divine seem rather ridiculous.

I don’t have issues with the Divine, I have issues with the things people say on its behalf, and the explanations they make to explain why the Divine doesn’t behave “consistently” according to what people say about it.

The explanations for why “God” doesn’t just show himself, are a good example. That is twisted human logic, nothing Divine about it. I kept wondering why “God” was so much like a crazy human, then I realized that was the role people cast Him in.

I think that there are many things we cannot understand about the Divine, because it is beyond us to understand, and we don’t need to. But I don’t think that God intentionally hides stuff from us to get us to believe rather than know, etc.

I think people have passed off a lot of their neurosis onto God.

All around us, all the time, is the Divine revealing itself. No games, no gimmicks, no special passwords neccessary.

 

[KarenNC]

I don’t believe that sex for pleasure outside of marriage is a sin - our bodies belong to us, and using them for pleasure is a great good.

I would place more parameters than just “using them for pleasure.” Personally, I believe that sexual activity is best reserved for a monogamous committed relationship between two adults old enough and responsible enough to understand the potential consequences inherent in the act (even with the best of protection) and willing and able to accept those consequences. I do understand that there are some who do not view polyamory or open relationships as an issue, but they are not something that I am wired to work with and I have not personally seen such a relationship that was balanced long term, so I remain skeptical.

This is a part of my personal ethical code, not because any religion teaches it as sinful. For me, it falls under the virtues of wisdom, moderation, vision and integrity.

 

[jimmy85]

I think that this is the twisted mess that occurs when we apply human reasoning to an infinite God, people end up making the Divine seem rather ridiculous.

I don’t have issues with the Divine, I have issues with the things people say on its behalf, and the explanations they make to explain why the Divine doesn’t behave “consistently” according to what people say about it.

The explanations for why “God” doesn’t just show himself, are a good example. That is twisted human logic, nothing Divine about it. I kept wondering why “God” was so much like a crazy human, then I realized that was the role people cast Him in.

I think that there are many things we cannot understand about the Divine, because it is beyond us to understand, and we don’t need to. But I don’t think that God intentionally hides stuff from us to get us to believe rather than know, etc.

I think people have passed off a lot of their neurosis onto God.

All around us, all the time, is the Divine revealing itself. No games, no gimmicks, no special passwords neccessary.

Well man, our believe are different.
I believe in a God that humiliate himself in order to come closer to our concience, knowledge and understandings with rites and stuffs that are pleasing to him.
Why does he accept this? because he love us.
I believe he created us because of love, and therefore that is why he humiliate himself.

However I think the way to know him more is by love.
He describe himself as a Father on the bible.
His covenant with the Israelites and with the church are something so sacret as a marriage.

I believe in a God that is not far, of course nobody can grasp all his knowledge. however he can give us the knowledge of the basic stuffs that we need to understand.

 

[cheddarsox]

Well man, our believe are different.
I believe in a God that humiliate himself in order to come closer to our concience, knowledge and understandings with rites and stuffs that are pleasing to him.
Why does he accept this? because he love us.
I believe he created us because of love, and therefore that is why he humiliate himself.

However I think the way to know him more is by love.
He describe himself as a Father on the bible.
His covenant with the Israelites and with the church are something so sacret as a marriage.

I believe in a God that is not far, of course nobody can grasp all his knowledge. however he can give us the knowledge of the basic stuffs that we need to understand.

Yes, in many ways our beliefs are different. Humiliate himself?
why would the Divine create something that it was humiliating to be part of?

This is the language of those who assign human traits to the Divine. Then theology gets more and more tangled trying to explain why the Most High needs to behave thusly…etc. etc.

But, if we let God be God, the Divine be Divine, and not try to force him/it into a anthropomorphic box (seeing it as human like), Wow…that’s it, just Wow.

The entire universe, and all its working reveal what God is.

Nuff said.

cheddar