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Walking_Home
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Nice try – but no dice.
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theplummer
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SuperLuigi
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Yeah, and I guess we’re just supposed to go along with it, like the picture of them smiling together on facebook with a comment of support-no-matter-what, it’s just a choice kinda thing, and any criticism would just be rude and stupid.=pianistclare;13162694]Agreed. I get the impression some people think it’s pretty easy. All done with mirrors.
Noone talks about what’s best for the children. Moving out with someone who they barely know and has no real parenting skills beyond bringing home a paycheck, or staying with the nurturer who has been with them 24-7 and also knows how to make spaghetti.
And then it’s “I can’t figure out why we are losing on the marriage issue—no really, I just, can’t quite put my thumb on it.”
But then, I’m a big bad evil woman.
NOOOOO!!! It can’t be!
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Walking_Home
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theplummer
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Your point is?
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Walking_Home
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Missed the point did you? “Patriarchy” and violence toward women go hand in hand.
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Xantippe
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Getting back to the main topic, here are some issues that come up again and again in marriages (and less formal relationships) but aren’t usually talked about (except #3):
The lack of shared values and goals for money is another big one. As theplummer’s posts have suggested, lack of common values in this area is extremely damaging, because a large part of successful family life consists in appropriately allotting family resources, both time and money. If there’s agreement between spouses, even choices that look ridiculous to outsiders can work. Engaged couples ought to be transparent about money and keep each other informed about what’s going on. They should talk about goals, practice accountability and work toward full financial integration after marriage. Married couples should have regular budget meetings and talk regularly about financial goals. Also, be prepared for it to be difficult to make the transition from double income no kids household to single income with kids family. Larger household + less money = trouble.
Failure to put spouse first gets talked about a lot in standard marriage advice because it’s important. Setting aside abuse, loyalty and discretion in marriage is really important. I don’t have any smart ideas on that, just that your spouse ought to be the first person you talk to about something important (or at least the second or the third), not the last one. They deserve (name removed by moderator)ut as early as you can get them into the process. For an example of how not to do this, see the second advice letter here:
dearwendy.com/afternoon-quickies-is-it-rude-to-get-married-the-same-month-as-my-brother/
Lastly, don’t be rigid. Just as at work, where we are often asked to do whatever it takes to get the job done, at home we should be willing to roll up our sleeves and do whatever our family needs from us, even if we feel it wasn’t in the “contract.” Also, be willing to re-examine your goals every few years to check if they are still realistic. You hoped for a large family before you had any children, but then it turned out that your wife gets severe postpartum depression. Or you wanted to be an SAHM, but you hate being at home all the time. Or you wanted to be a working mother, but it’s killing you. Or it turns out that a child has a disability, so instead of enjoying soccer glory, you’re going to therapy. Your family is not a color-by-numbers kit. There will be some surprises. Some things will be worse than you expect and some things will be better.
OK, off soapbox!
- love of drama
- lack of shared goals and plans for money management
- failure to put spouse first
- rigidity
The lack of shared values and goals for money is another big one. As theplummer’s posts have suggested, lack of common values in this area is extremely damaging, because a large part of successful family life consists in appropriately allotting family resources, both time and money. If there’s agreement between spouses, even choices that look ridiculous to outsiders can work. Engaged couples ought to be transparent about money and keep each other informed about what’s going on. They should talk about goals, practice accountability and work toward full financial integration after marriage. Married couples should have regular budget meetings and talk regularly about financial goals. Also, be prepared for it to be difficult to make the transition from double income no kids household to single income with kids family. Larger household + less money = trouble.
Failure to put spouse first gets talked about a lot in standard marriage advice because it’s important. Setting aside abuse, loyalty and discretion in marriage is really important. I don’t have any smart ideas on that, just that your spouse ought to be the first person you talk to about something important (or at least the second or the third), not the last one. They deserve (name removed by moderator)ut as early as you can get them into the process. For an example of how not to do this, see the second advice letter here:
dearwendy.com/afternoon-quickies-is-it-rude-to-get-married-the-same-month-as-my-brother/
Lastly, don’t be rigid. Just as at work, where we are often asked to do whatever it takes to get the job done, at home we should be willing to roll up our sleeves and do whatever our family needs from us, even if we feel it wasn’t in the “contract.” Also, be willing to re-examine your goals every few years to check if they are still realistic. You hoped for a large family before you had any children, but then it turned out that your wife gets severe postpartum depression. Or you wanted to be an SAHM, but you hate being at home all the time. Or you wanted to be a working mother, but it’s killing you. Or it turns out that a child has a disability, so instead of enjoying soccer glory, you’re going to therapy. Your family is not a color-by-numbers kit. There will be some surprises. Some things will be worse than you expect and some things will be better.
OK, off soapbox!
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Xantippe
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For a popular culture example of love of drama for the sake of drama, see Taylor Swift’s Blank Space.
youtube.com/watch?v=e-ORhEE9VVg
youtube.com/watch?v=e-ORhEE9VVg
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theplummer
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Bullocks. You are reading waaaay more into that quote than what is actually there.
The male kinship model or “family patriarchy” was a complete construct of judeo/ Christianity. The only other alternative is a female kinship model or “matriarchy”. Talk about violence and abuse… Geez.
But, you would know that IF you took the time to read the link.
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theplummer
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I agree with your earlier post and as far as this example of drama… Well, the first time I heard the song, I had to see the video…actually made me sick to my stomach to think that young people are being desensitized and actually taught to both act this way, as well as try to accept this behavior in a relationship.
To think that this song would ever gain any popularity at all is a testament as to just how sick our culture has become.
No “real man” would allow himself to be subject to this type of woman for even a day.
She needs a spanking, or at least did when she was a child.
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pensmama87
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The idea that women making day to day decisions about spending household income being evidence of wrongdoing or unfairness strikes me as odd. After all, businesses need managers and administrators, too, even if they’re not the ones selling or manufacturing product (really small-scale operations might get away with this, but even then on a two person team you’ve probably got one who does more of “the books.”
Basically my role in the home is household manager. Sure there could be bad managers, but that’s not a sign that management should be done away with (or even that it’s easy to learn). My husband works in administration and is gifted at what he does, but even there the context is completely different than at home. Could he manage 2 (soon to be 3) children and our household finances? If he had to, he could, but no, I don’t think he’d be as good as it as I am. And I think the same goes for me doing his job, not that I’d want to. If for some reason I had to, I could do it, but probably not with the success he’s had. (And like Xantippe said about her husband, my husband feels called to do the work he does, and I feel called to the work I do.)
We are a team. Better together than apart. We’ve had times in our marriage when we looked at each other like adversaries rather than spouses and that was devastating. I can’t see how that attitude is helpful large scale - to set up a large group of people as the enemy. That’s not to say there aren’t groups with agendas harmful to healthy marriage and family life, but that to me would include people who focus excessively on men and “individual rights” as much as women and “individual rights” (being a euphemism for “treating other people badly because I feel like it and anyway they’re probably out to get me.”)
Basically my role in the home is household manager. Sure there could be bad managers, but that’s not a sign that management should be done away with (or even that it’s easy to learn). My husband works in administration and is gifted at what he does, but even there the context is completely different than at home. Could he manage 2 (soon to be 3) children and our household finances? If he had to, he could, but no, I don’t think he’d be as good as it as I am. And I think the same goes for me doing his job, not that I’d want to. If for some reason I had to, I could do it, but probably not with the success he’s had. (And like Xantippe said about her husband, my husband feels called to do the work he does, and I feel called to the work I do.)
We are a team. Better together than apart. We’ve had times in our marriage when we looked at each other like adversaries rather than spouses and that was devastating. I can’t see how that attitude is helpful large scale - to set up a large group of people as the enemy. That’s not to say there aren’t groups with agendas harmful to healthy marriage and family life, but that to me would include people who focus excessively on men and “individual rights” as much as women and “individual rights” (being a euphemism for “treating other people badly because I feel like it and anyway they’re probably out to get me.”)
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theplummer
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This is exactly what the men’s rights movement is all about. The whole reason it exists, is simply a pushback to the feminist supremist movement of second and third wave feminism.
Again, the link I’ve provided numerous times now addresses this problem of division between the genders, that liberal politicians thrive on, I really wish you folks would at least give it a look see.
I feel like Sam I Am. Really the green eggs and ham is good.
Wasn’t it Peter, in the book of Acts that said to those in disagreement, that presented the idea of “let’s look at what we share in common, then address the differences”.
However, the liberal “progressives” have zero interest in even inviting the “other side” to the table, to even give a voice to someone who has a legitimate issue with the status quo.
This is the whole reason men are gravitating toward going there own way. Deny a living being a place at the table, and they WILL eventually leave and discover that they really didn’t need you in the first place.
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pensmama87
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The thing is that every decent thing you’ve said has also been served up with a heaping side of misogyny, to the degree that even the decent things sound suspect (you’ve demeaned stay-at-home mothers by insisting we don’t really work, that it would be too hard for us to do what our husbands do even though it would be easy in reverse, that all we do is spend money, etc. etc.) You’re setting up women - and all women, including those in very traditional household models - as an enemy.
I can read more replies than just the ones you’ve given me. It’s one thing to talk out of both sides of your mouth when what you perceive as “the opposition” isn’t listening. But all of us can see everything you’re saying. Frankly, the whole thing stinks. If you want to talk about making sure that children have access to their fathers because that’s important, then do it without insulting their mothers. I’d say that whether you were talking on an individual level or on a societal one.
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theplummer
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I hear you. However, I feel there is a communication problem that always exists between genders. What you see as my words as mysoginist, demeaning, or offensive, is often times people read more into my words than is actually there. A true sign that the gender war HAS had an effect, even here.
In fact, my words that you interpret as “demeaning” to SAHM is a response to the demeaning words that were initially brought to me regarding things like “my husband can barely take care of the kids for a couple of hours, much less a whole weekend” ( paraphrasing of course, but you get the idea). There were many more statements made toward the actual feeling that many mothers do feel superior to their husbands, in areas of childcare.
This issue is exasorbate by things like television. Men are widely portrays as bumbling idiots, and the mothers and children are seen as sassy and smart, steamrolling over the male role model. The same with violence against men on television. It’s funny to watch a man do something stupid and then get hurt, or to watch a “independant woman or child” use her sharp words to put the husband/ father "in his place. You may not believe that this stuff has an effect on you or your children, but it does. So, instead of having the " my husband is so incapable of doing what I do, he couldn’t possibly do my job, (set up for failure, before he’s even given the chance to prove he’s a failure). I see it ALL THE TIME.
How about coming at it from the approach of having faith that your spouse CAN DO, and accept that his way isn’t wrong, when he does it, it’s just different. You would never chastise a child for making his bed wrong, no you’d praise him for the effort. Try praising your husband for the effort. Start looking at the glass half full.
And please, stop coming from the position of a coiled up snake, looking for an opportunity to strike. If you are expecting someone to say something offensive, that’s all you will ever see.
Just stop… Please?
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pianistclare
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I never said anything like that, and I’m not white knighting anyone. YOU sir, are blackballing all women. Just because someone you know may have had a bad experience, don’t label all of us.
Authentic Catholic teaching does not promote being a doormat.
Divorce is not evil. Divorce is permitted, actually. It’s the re-marriage that is problematic, but I guess you knew that.
It chaps me that you continue to mis-read and put words in people’s mouths.
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pensmama87
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You must be confusing me with someone else. I never said my husband was incapable. I said I was more capable than him in the area of childcare and household management. We made that decision at the beginning of our marriage based on our respective strengths and weaknesses. It has nothing to do with my looking down on him. Have I struggled with that sometimes? Yes, because I’m human. Has he struggled sometimes with thinking I “do nothing” while he works all day? Yes, because he’s human. But then we return to our senses and shake off that temptation (which only comes from an evil place, mind you) and get back to teamwork.
I think you’re kind of blending all of us together in your mind as if we’re all out to get you. We’re not. We’re saying you’re saying sexist things and should stop that if we’re going to take you seriously. “Coiled snake”? Come on, that’s like the oldest misogynist stereotype in the book.
(It would also help if you had a defense other than “But she did it first!” People who work with small children all day know better than to fall for that one.)
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theplummer
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Black balling all women. Wow what a sweeping generalization you are projecting into my head. You have no idea what I think.I never said anything like that, and I’m not white knighting anyone. YOU sir, are blackballing all women. Just because someone you know may have had a bad experience, don’t label all of us.
Authentic Catholic teaching does not promote being a doormat.
Divorce is not evil. Divorce is permitted, actually. It’s the re-marriage that is problematic, but I guess you knew that.
It chaps me that you continue to mis-read and put words in people’s mouths.
I’m not labeling All women, I’m pointing out a flawed logic that many women hold near and dear, why? Well, you are doing it right here. You are claiming “victim status”. That position has great power, especially over men. Just stop…please?
As far as divorce is permitted, WHAT? No it’s not. Jesus said that for the hardness of man’s heart MOSES allowed for divorce. Not God. Time to hit the good book. Me thinks.
Another thing on gender communication. Men are direct in our words. We say things with laser like p(name removed by moderator)oint accuracy, with as few a words as possible. Women tend to be more like a shotgun in their approach to verbal communication.
It is really hard for me, and I fight this urge to be blunt, as not to offend the sensibilities of the “fairer sex”, but it’s really hard. It’s hard for men to flower up their words to soften them as to not be taken offensive by women, especially when the woman he’s talking to is already coming from the perpetual victimhood status.
I get it. People who come from a position of privilage (rights without responsibilities) as well as victimhood, do not want to give that up. One with that power, in order to be intellectually honest, must be willing to have the fortitude to realize that they have the power, accept that it’s not right, and be willing to voluntarily give it up.
I believe I missed know how MLK felt before he was assassinated.
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theplummer
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Allow me to clarify. When I use the word “you” what I’m identifying is all folks coming on here and writing words of opposition. Yes a little generalization. Maybe that’s wrong, but I feel like I’m speaking to a “collective” so the term you is intended as a group instead of the singular.
I will try to do better.
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JurisPrudens
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I see there is a role of genders comtroversy here? So sad. :slapfight:
Personally I am conservative as to the gender roles and mariage. However, I see that conservatism has a way to go to elaborate a new way for people of both sexes to develop. I see that conservatism is male-dominated, and not without a reason. I believe that “femininity” concept should get a richer meaning and expression within the traditional values. That’s how we should distract women from feminism.:nun2:
Personally I am conservative as to the gender roles and mariage. However, I see that conservatism has a way to go to elaborate a new way for people of both sexes to develop. I see that conservatism is male-dominated, and not without a reason. I believe that “femininity” concept should get a richer meaning and expression within the traditional values. That’s how we should distract women from feminism.:nun2:
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