A historical explanation of how things came to be?

[Irish_Melkite]

Dear brother Neil, how is that so many years have passed and you still remain unaware that the full text of “The Orthodox Church” is available online at Intratext (and has been for several years)
intratext.com/x/eng0804.htm

Many years,
John

John, dear friend,

I knew that

I was sure it was - but, kept looking and couldn’t find it :banghead:

I lost my huge collection of “favorite” links when the old PC died a couple months ago. Just bought an external drive, so I could access the old hard-drive and get at them, but haven’t had a chance to set it up yet.

Thanks much for the link, my brother

Many years,

Neil, going now to get coffee and try to wipe the egg off his face

 

[Edmac]

To briefly address the question contained in the title to this
thread: the Ruthenian Catholic Church is a Church that
follows the Byzantine Rite. Many other EC Churches are of that
rite, for example, the Ukrainians, Melkites, Romanians and
Russians. In this country the Ruthenian Church generally
calls itself the Byzantine Catholic Church, which does make
it a bit confusing, since they are not the only Catholics
of a Byzantine rite church around.

Edmac

 

[Joab_Anias]

Thank you for giving these links. This is great!

My pleasure.

 

[Patrick_Eastin]

what I can only call the Great Vigil on Holy Saturday in 1976 at the then local EO church

To make sure we understand each other, was this the Vesperal Liturgy of Holy Saturday (supposedly held around 4 pm but in parishes much earlier) or the Midnight Matins and Divine Liturgy of Pascha?

We were there right about sundown and got out sometime after one am. The liturgy included everyone leaving the church and going outside and greeting each other Christos anesti - alithos anesti!

 

[brotherhrolf]

Thank all of you for your kind answers and for the exellent suggested reading materials. The Croats who came to New Orleans were fishermen and oystermen so that makes better sense now in context.

I will indeed read the books suggested since my total exposure to the eastern church is quite limited and filtered through the eyes of western biases.

To make sure we understand each other, was this the Vesperal Liturgy of Holy Saturday (supposedly held around 4 pm but in parishes much earlier) or the Midnight Matins and Divine Liturgy of Pascha?

The liturgy started around six in the evening on Orthodox Holy Saturday and ended around 1:30 am on Easter morning. Everyone exited the church at one point and greeted each other with Christos anesti! Alithos anesti! (I thought that was absolutely wonderful).

But can anyone tell me about the history of Eastern Catholic immigration into the US? With the exception of the Croats, there are virtually no eastern Europeans here.

(St. Nicholas of Myra Chapel is still in existence in New Orleans. As it turns out, it is just down the street from the Chancery of the Archdiocese of NO and Notre Dame Seminary. Their website was updated in May of this year so I assmume they are still functioning. They are evidently in the “old” high school seminary prep buildings.)

(Sheesh! Talk about feeling old! When I was in high school back in the late 60s, St. John’s Prep was a brand new high school in the same general area but several blocks away. It closed in the early 70s as did the seminary prep high school here in Baton Rouge).

 

[lak611]

But can anyone tell me about the history of Eastern Catholic immigration into the US? With the exception of the Croats, there are virtually no eastern Europeans here.

Many Eastern Catholic and Orthodox nationalities ended up in Cleveland, Ohio, particularly the Carpatho-Russians. St. Theodosius Russian Orthodox Cathedral, mentioned in this article was featured in the movie “The Deer Hunter”. My friend’s aunt and uncle were members of the parish and taught the actors and actresses how to dance. The reception scenes took place in Lemko Hall, which is now an art gallery.

A woman from the Tremont/Southside neighbourhood, who is Greek Catholic says this:

Helen Zayatz Metzger: Since Holy Ghost was a Greek Catholic Church they didn’t follow the Roman Catholic Lenten
traditions. They fasted for 2 weeks before Easter and (my mother) took the basket to church to have the Easter dinner
blessed. The cheese or what I thought was cheese was really eggs and milk, cooked and dripped in the sink and then
baked for a short time in the oven. She took ham, bread, poppyseed rolls, nut rolls and Easter bread, Easter eggs and
(kielbasi), horseradish mixed with beets. She took the basket on Holy Saturday. The Easter Service was about the same
as the Greek Orthodox Church. Everything had to be eaten because it was blessed. The Mass on Sunday was 3 hours
long.

from this article, which has more about the neighbourhood.

 

[Catherine_Grant]

Catherine,

With all due respect, one cannot discuss the history of Eastern or Oriental Catholicism, from whence it came, where it is now, nor where it will be in the near or distant future, in a vacuum which separates it from Orthodoxy - of which it once was, with which it shares its spirituality, culture, and ecclesial praxis, and to which same origins it has been directed to return by no less a person of authority than the Pope.

The opinions of the Orthodox Church as to its Catholic counterparts are of significant import in discussion such as the dialogues at Ravenna. Additionally, it is manifestly unclear as to how discussion of the history of Orthodoxy can be had distinct from that of Eastern Catholicism or Catholicism in general. The intertwined nature of the Apostolic Churches is what effectively drives the periodic and recurrent re-examination of issues between the Churches over this thousand years past - a re-visiting that has not been similarly mirrored between Rome and any other of the religious entities with which it no longer shares communio in sacris.

Many years,

Neil

Thank you for re-stating the board’s focus with more eloquence.

If there is any question as to which board is most appropriate, posters may PM me.

 

[Joab_Anias]

But can anyone tell me about the history of Eastern Catholic immigration into the US? With the exception of the Croats, there are virtually no eastern Europeans here.

A quick internet search yielded the following links:

• Eastern Catholic Church History
• Eastern Catholic Churches in Full Communion
• The Eastern Catholic Churches are autonomous
• Development of Eastern Christianity As explained by Roman Catholic Archbishop Messmer in 1919
• THE EASTERN CATHOLIC CHURCHES
• Eastern Catholic Churches
• Eastern Catholic Churches and Liturgies

I also found this but no promise of its accuracy:

The first of the Orthodox Churches of the East to bring the message of Orthodoxy to North America was the venerable Russian Orthodox Church. In 1794, eight monks from a Russian monastery founded an Orthodox mission on Kodiak Island, which then belonged, together with all the lands of Alaska, to Russia. By 1840, a Russian Orthodox Bishop had been consecrated for the lands in Alaska. In 1872, his seat of authority was moved to San Francisco, and, in 1905, the Russian Orthodox Church moved its Diocesan and administrative headquarters to New York City.
geocities.com/theocacnainc/history.htm

Keep in mind there are distinct differences between Eastern Orthodox Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Non-Catholics.

The non-catholic Orthodox subscribe to polemics whereby Catholics do not though they may retain some of the same theology that is openly reconciled with western theology while non-Catholics refuse to do so. You could equate the situation with the SSPX or Old Catholic phenomena in certain aspects. Also there are Roman Catholic Churches in the same places as Eastern Orthodox Catholic Churches that may pose some difficulty discerning custom from theology.

This next link would be an example of those non-Catholic Orthodox promoting discord:
trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_introduction.shtml

And here would be an example of an Ecumenical Orthodox though not in union with the Catholic Church (yet):
archons.org/patriarchate/history/pentarchy.asp

Though there are those in his Patriarch out of respect for him as well as there is a tense situation with the monks of Mt Athos over authority and further discord with the ROC over authority and jurisdictions. You may encounter terms like second Rome and third Rome. These would refer to Istanbul of Turkey (formerly Constantinople of Asia Minor) and Moscow respectively.

Peace.

P.S. I forgot to mention there are stickys at the top of the thread that may yield more information for you.
Hopefully more to come.

 

[St_Benedict]

Thank you for giving these links. This is great!

The Encyclopedia has its uses but has be treated with caution. It’s of its time. The Archdiocese of Glasgow diocesan website rcag.org.uk/Links/index.htm here has it on its link pages and states ‘this is an OLD edition, some articles are still useful’

Having perused a few articles it is written in the old’ fortress’ mentality, and a very Latin mentality at that. Eastern Catholic posters in other (Now Deleted) threads have highlighted inaccuracies and prejudicies. And it was written by laypeople to boot. Don’t use it as a primary source!

 

[lak611]

The Encyclopedia has its uses but has be treated with caution. It’s of its time. The Archdiocese of Glasgow diocesan website rcag.org.uk/Links/index.htm here has it on its link pages and states ‘this is an OLD edition, some articles are still useful’

Having perused a few articles it is written in the old’ fortress’ mentality, and a very Latin mentality at that. Eastern Catholic posters in other (Now Deleted) threads have highlighted inaccuracies and prejudicies. And it was written by laypeople to boot. Don’t use it as a primary source!

Thank you for your insight. I will definitely check the other sources that have been provided.

 

[Edmac]

The old Encyclopedia is an amazing work containing all sorts
of information you are not likely easily to find elsewhere. I got an
almost complete set from an Evangelical bookstore real cheap.
I guess they were uncomfortable having it around. Of course it
is a child of its time, what can you expect? The fact that
many of its contributors were laymen is a plus not a minus.

Edmac

 

[St_Benedict]

The old Encyclopedia is an amazing work containing all sorts
of information you are not likely easily to find elsewhere. I got an
almost complete set from an Evangelical bookstore real cheap.
I guess they were uncomfortable having it around. Of course it
is a child of its time, what can you expect? The fact that
many of its contributors were laymen is a plus not a minus.

Edmac

Well you could get it from the new version or some other source where you wont get errors such as

The Greek Church, embracing all the Eastern Churches involved in the schism of Photius and Michael Caerularius, and the Russian Church can lay no claim to Apostolic succession either direct or indirect, i.e. through Rome, because they are, by their own fact and will, separated from the Roman Communion.

newadvent.org/cathen/01641a.htm

 

[Kielbasi]

But can anyone tell me about the history of Eastern Catholic immigration into the US? With the exception of the Croats, there are virtually no eastern Europeans here.

Eastern Catholic immigration in the US is related to the history of steel and coal. Pittsburgh, Johnstown, Scranton, Cleveland , Youngstown, river towns in the Monongahela valley all received substantial numbers of Eastern Catholic immigrants to work in the emerging steel and coal industries a hundred years ago.

The majority of Eastern Catholics around today are descendents of those immigrants.

 

[yeshua]

War brought my people to the diaspora, and the radiating issue of religious persecution. This wave is still ongoing…

Peace and God Bless.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Eastern Catholic immigration in the US is related to the history of steel and coal. Pittsburgh, Johnstown, Scranton, Cleveland , Youngstown, river towns in the Monongahela valley all received substantial numbers of Eastern Catholic immigrants to work in the emerging steel and coal industries a hundred years ago.

The majority of Eastern Catholics around today are descendants of those immigrants.

Which would explain Patchunky in Birmingham, Alabama (or thereabouts) - that’s neat y’all! Never thought of that!
Mobile was founded before NO but was overshadowed by NO…

I would say that Mobile and on over to Pensacola to the east and to Lake Charles to the west…is a pretty Catholic culture. Overwhelmingly Latin Catholic.

Eastern Europeans with the exception of the Croats did not immigrate down here. What many of you describe is an absolute mystery to me.

 

[Woodstock]

Here is a book recommendation.

American Eastern Catholics by Fred J. Saato

The long and complex history of the Eastern American Catholic Churches, in their many ethnic varieties, has been difficult to understand. This clearly-written, engaging book changes all that. The author, Fr. Fred Saato, examines the long and often difficult history of the Eastern Catholics, e.g., Melkites, Maronites, Ruthenians, Armenians,Ukrainians, and their relationship, often tenuous, with Rome. The fascinating tale of the movement of these Churches from their embattled homelands to “separate-church-and-state” United States poses serious concerns for the languages, cultures, and traditions of these ancient faiths. At the same time, the flowering of their churches in an English-speaking context has caused many of these Eastern Churches to receive a new Pentecost, examined in this text.Unlike the other pamphlets and booklets on the Eastern Churches that generally speak only of the differences/likenesses between East and West, this text acts as pastoral aid for both the Western Catholic who wants to better understand the Churches of the East, and the Eastern Catholic American who may have lost touch with the singular attributes of their Eastern pedigree.

About the author: A priest of the Melkite Greek Catholic Eparchy of Newton, Fr. Saato formerly served as its director of educational services. He is currently director of God With Us Publications, the catechetical publishing arm of the Eastern Catholic Bishops in the United States.

 

[lak611]

Here is a book recommendation.

American Eastern Catholics by Fred J. Saato

The long and complex history of the Eastern American Catholic Churches, in their many ethnic varieties, has been difficult to understand. This clearly-written, engaging book changes all that. The author, Fr. Fred Saato, examines the long and often difficult history of the Eastern Catholics, e.g., Melkites, Maronites, Ruthenians, Armenians,Ukrainians, and their relationship, often tenuous, with Rome. The fascinating tale of the movement of these Churches from their embattled homelands to “separate-church-and-state” United States poses serious concerns for the languages, cultures, and traditions of these ancient faiths. At the same time, the flowering of their churches in an English-speaking context has caused many of these Eastern Churches to receive a new Pentecost, examined in this text.Unlike the other pamphlets and booklets on the Eastern Churches that generally speak only of the differences/likenesses between East and West, this text acts as pastoral aid for both the Western Catholic who wants to better understand the Churches of the East, and the Eastern Catholic American who may have lost touch with the singular attributes of their Eastern pedigree.

About the author: A priest of the Melkite Greek Catholic Eparchy of Newton, Fr. Saato formerly served as its director of educational services. He is currently director of God With Us Publications, the catechetical publishing arm of the Eastern Catholic Bishops in the United States.

Thanks for the link. I will check out this book.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

The old Encyclopedia is an amazing work containing all sorts
of information you are not likely easily to find elsewhere. I got an
almost complete set from an Evangelical bookstore real cheap.
I guess they were uncomfortable having it around. Of course it
is a child of its time, what can you expect? The fact that
many of its contributors were laymen is a plus not a minus.

I agree that there are tidbits of info there that can otherwise be difficult to come by today - BUT - the problem with works that are a product of their time is that not all users realize that or, if they do, lack the requisite knowledge to separate fact from opinion or recognize bias.

Many years,

Neil

 

[zografou]

I made the mistake of reporting about what happened to the EO Cathedral down in NO after Katrina and had my head presented to me on a platter because I did not know correct terminology.

If I may ask, what does this refer to?

 

[brotherhrolf]

Here is a book recommendation.

American Eastern Catholics by Fred J. Saato

The long and complex history of the Eastern American Catholic Churches, in their many ethnic varieties, has been difficult to understand. This clearly-written, engaging book changes all that. The author, Fr. Fred Saato, examines the long and often difficult history of the Eastern Catholics, e.g., Melkites, Maronites, Ruthenians, Armenians,Ukrainians, and their relationship, often tenuous, with Rome. The fascinating tale of the movement of these Churches from their embattled homelands to “separate-church-and-state” United States poses serious concerns for the languages, cultures, and traditions of these ancient faiths. At the same time, the flowering of their churches in an English-speaking context has caused many of these Eastern Churches to receive a new Pentecost, examined in this text.Unlike the other pamphlets and booklets on the Eastern Churches that generally speak only of the differences/likenesses between East and West, this text acts as pastoral aid for both the Western Catholic who wants to better understand the Churches of the East, and the Eastern Catholic American who may have lost touch with the singular attributes of their Eastern pedigree.

About the author: A priest of the Melkite Greek Catholic Eparchy of Newton, Fr. Saato formerly served as its director of educational services. He is currently director of God With Us Publications, the catechetical publishing arm of the Eastern Catholic Bishops in the United States.

Thank you! Another great resource!