A Hoped Logically Consistent View of Deification

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CatholicGuyNY,
I appreciate your willingness to respond to my questions. I hope I am responding to yours.

I am not sure what you views are regarding the Trinity quite yet so I may be placing upon you things that I think I have learned from other folks. I would like to ask the below two questions. The first one is rather important because when you say, “What do you mean by “same”? Frequently, many people will say that “they are the same”, yet not clarify what exactly they mean by “same”. They are not the same Person. They are not physically the same.” I may be tilting at a neo-modalism you do not embrace.

I see two things in the above, but I wanted to check them out with you before I plod off unwisely.
First, it seems to me that you are a Social Trinitarian. You embrace the concept of homoousian for the three persons of the Trinity AND homoousian for all of mankind. Christ being the bridge between the two in that He was homoousian with us in His humanity and homoousian with God the Father in His divinity. Do I understand that correctly?

Second, you stated that Jesus Christ had the above two natures, He became human without ceasing to be God AND that we are to have the above two natures in that we are to become divine without ceasing to be human. Do I understand you here correctly?

Charity, TOm
Okay, Tom, I think it may be helpful for you define what exactly it means to be a “social trinitarian” (since from my brief reading on the matter, the definitions vary depending on the philosopher/theologian espousing such a view. It will also be helpful for you to contrast Social Trinitarianism with the Traditional/Orthodox Trinitarianism.

I believe that I am a Traditional/Orthodox Trinitarian. I do not believe that there is any modalism (whether “neo” or whatever) inherent in the orthodox Trinity doctrine, and that any modalism apparent in the doctrine is due to the misunderstanding of the Trinity, whether by non-Trinitarians or many Trinitarians themselves. So, all of the views that I have presented are consistent with the orthodox Trinity belief. If you believe that they are not (and are calling them “social trinitarianism”, as a theology distinct from the orthodox/traditional Trinity), then as mentioned before, please provide the definitions of both theologies that you are using.

Yes, you are correct that I believe (and traditional Trinitarians believe) that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are homoousios/consubstantial, and that through the Incarnation, Jesus became consubstantial/homoousios with us (and we as humans are consubstantial with each other, in the sense that we all have human nature).
 
Ok. I am trying to focus on the areas where I perceive the charge of illogic is being leveled. This originally started because to my observation Stephen168 claimed that the LDS idea that “men can become gods” was just irrational. I am coming to find out that his charge has to do with what he thinks LDS mean when they say this rather than having to do with a philosophically precise description of this concept by a LDS. Such is common within inter-religious discussion. We will see if I have fallen victim to it when I assumed that you were a neo-modalist like I believe Augustine, Athanasius, and Aquinas were.
Perhaps it will be helpful for you to define what “neo-modalist” means and how Augustine, Athanasius, and Aquinas were “neo-modalists”.

Catholics do not have a problem with the phrase “men can become gods” (since a similar statement is found in the Catechism). The problem lies in what we mean by that, which I believe you understand.
To your assumptions:
  1. I fully affirm that men are the offspring of God the Father and existed as His spirit children before they were born on earth. Truth be told, I think a separate issue is that Catholicism lacks a compelling Theodicy and the pre-mortal existence is one of the components that is important to the LDS Theodicy I embrace. But I do not think our pre-mortal existence EXCEPT in its ontological link to God the Father is particularly important for a doctrine of deification.
Yes, I am referring to the ontological link between us and the Father in Mormon theology, stemming from your belief that we are literally the offspring of the Father. This is a very important part of LDS exaltation that separates it from orthodox theosis. Whereas we believe that we “partake” of the divine nature, since we do not have it (and therefore “adopt” it), LDS believe that we already are of the same core nature as God, but that through His grace, we can grow to become more like Him.
 
Ok. I am trying to focus on the areas where I perceive the charge of illogic is being leveled. This originally started because to my observation Stephen168 claimed that the LDS idea that “men can become gods” was just irrational.
While searching the web to try to find what Mormonism means by deification, I found that almost all will explain what it isn’t. I could only find one which tried to explain what it was. To judge the rationality of Mormon deification; I think we first have to know what it is.
I am coming to find out that his charge has to do with what he thinks LDS mean when they say this rather than having to do with a philosophically precise description of this concept by a LDS.
This will be my attempt to offer what I believe about LDS deification thought and its consistency.
So, if there is One God who is God the Father, then the idea that we would become this One God would involve supplanting God the Father. Supplanting God the Father is IMO foreign to the teachings of the Bible, the CoJCoLDS, and is just not something that is associated with deification.
So, I assert that there is One God who is the perfect indwelling unity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. That God the Father is the “fons divinitatis” and thus the Son and the Holy Spirit align with Him (the Son conforms His will to the Father’s will, but I would generally not say that Father conforms His will to the Son’s. I am sure there is no conflict, but the Father is the Head). We are to become united to the Father and the Trinity through the atonement worked out by and strength given from the Son. We are to become united to the Father and the Trinity through the witness and guidance of the Spirit. And we are to become united to the Father and the Trinity drawn by the perfect love that comes from God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. When we “see Him as He is” we will be gods. We will always be subordinate in that the Father is the Head and we could not come to Him without the Son and the Holy Spirit (because we could not / did not join the Father without the atonement and …). IMO if we fulfill God’s will for us we will always worship God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; but perfectly united within an indwelling unity of love we will be gods.
Deification is entering into the perfect union of the Social Trinity such that we are part of this perfect loving communion that begins with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. To be gods is to be part of this indwelling unity. We are invited to this fullness of communion and God desires that we become gods.

Divinity is the state of being a distinct person within the perfect, indwelling, Social, love that is the Social Trinity. Those who are perfectly communed into this Godhead, who are perfectly communed with God the Father, who are perfectly communed with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit; are gods.

Divinity is the communed nature that exists in the Social Trinity. We are called to this nature.
  1. I fully affirm that men are the offspring of God the Father and existed as His spirit children before they were born on earth. Truth be told, I think a separate issue is that Catholicism lacks a compelling Theodicy and the pre-mortal existence is one of the components that is important to the LDS Theodicy I embrace. But I do not think our pre-mortal existence EXCEPT in its ontological link to God the Father is particularly important for a doctrine of deification.
Now those who are deified will possess the intelligence of God, as this is shared within the divine communion; but God the Father’s preeminent possession of this intelligence is still true. This is part of His being the Fount of Divinity.

I have neither problem with nor firm conviction of what “eternal increase” is. At the very least, I think it means that we do not stagnate as a perfected being as I see God presented by much of Aquinas’s thought. We will continue to experience love and communion and any sorrows for/with those who sorrow, but net-net there will be a progression of love and joy. I see no reason that the deified might not receive worlds/kingdoms and Joseph Smith did indeed teach this. I merely suggest as Joseph Smith did that God the Father remains our Father and our God.
THE KING FOLLETT SERMON by Joseph Smith:
He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.
THE KING FOLLETT SERMON by Joseph Smith:
He God himself. was Once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!
I’m still trying to get a clear understand of what the Mormon Church teaches as deification. Joseph Smith said God the father was once a man on a planet and is now exalted in heaven. You say becoming a god will include receiving worlds/kingdoms. Can I assume that when a Mormon says they will become a god they will be a god in the same way God the father is God except never be equal in seniority?
 
You do realize that the Eastern Catholics revere Palamas, hence there is no problem with Catholics relying on his teachings? Also, it is important to remember that these theologians are just that: theologians. They are not Ecumenical Councils, the Magisterium, or Papal Infallibility.
Catholicism quite clearly teaches, right in the Catechism, that we become joint-heirs with Christ, a process that begins with baptism, which makes us a “new creature”, and that the Son of God became man so that we could become gods. Catholicism heavily focuses on sanctification, and the importance of grace in that process (sacramental grace being prime). While Roman Catholics may not talk about “theosis” or “deification” as much as Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Catholics, Roman Catholics still are taught about becoming new creatures in Christ and the sanctification of our very being.
Please read this article from the Catholic Encyclopedia, on Supernatural Adoption, for more information:
newadvent.org/cathen/01148a.htm
I have read this (the only thing I know I need to dive into more is the Theosis Wiki). In my understanding of deification, adoption is being welcomed into the divine family. This inclusion is only perfected after resurrection, but it begins when we accept covenantal-ly accept Christ.

Concerning Palamas and why I frequently think of him as offering ideas at odds with Catholicism, I will present some of my ideas. If you are well versed in what I am about to share, you can surely educate me. If not, then my small understanding will be as it is. Aquinas taught that the beautific vision included all that is God which includes what Palamas would call God’s essence. Palamas taught that Theosis includes ONLY participation in God’s energies because God’s essence is totally unavailable to man. Here are somethings associated with this from two authors I read both long ago and likely poorly:

I suspect that if Aquinas and Palamas were locked in a room, Aquinas would accuse Palamas of DIVINDING God. Aquinas thought in my view was the height of divine simplicity. God is one undivided, pure act no potential, … Palamas would have problems with concepts such as created Grace.

I will quote a long section of Bradshaw (for two reasons, I am quite possibly too thick to adequately digest all of this and certainly my first hand knowledge is limited and from my “too thick state” I think he is making my point).
cont …
 
David Bradshaw - Aristotle East and West: Metaphysics and the Division of Christendom, pages 255-256
Aquinas’ teaching on the beatific vision exhibits with particular clarity the difference separating him from the eastern tradition. The most immediately obvious is that, whereas for the East God is beyond knowing, Aquinas regards Him as the highest intelligible object. Aquinas is aware of this disagreement. In the De Veritate he cites a long string of objections to the possibility of seeing God through His essence, and among them are several drawn from Dionysius and John of Damascus. The most fundamental, which Aquinas attributes to Dionysius, is that “all cognition is of things that are; God, however, is no a being, but is above being; therefore, He cannot be known except by transcendent knowledge, which is divine knowledge.” Aquinas’ reply is worth quoting in full:

“Dionysius’ argument proceeds from the knowledge had while in this life. This is had from forms in existing creatures, and, consequently, it cannot attain to what is transcendent. Such is not the case, however, of the vision had in heaven. His argument, therefore, is not pertinent to the problem at hand.”

What for Dionysius had been a limitation inherent to the relation between creature and Creator become for Aquinas one imposed solely by our current ways of knowing. It is worth noting that Aquinas’ position had been considered and rejected by St. Gregory of Nyssa. In his Contra Eunomium Gregory denies that the ousia of God is known even to the angels, precisely in order to insist that this limitation is not due solely to human ways of knowing but is an intrinsic limitation of the creature. Gregory’s writings were not available to Aquinas, however, and even if they had been it is unlikely that Aquinas would have changed his mind. He notes at the beginning of this article of the De Veritate that the denial that God can be seen through His essence had already been judged heretical. This judgment occurred at the University of Paris in 1241, in the rejection of the proposition that “the divine essence will be seen in itself neither by man nor by angel.” In his Commentary on Hebrews Aquinas attributes the rejected view to Eriugena, who in turn (unknown to Aquinas) depended for this point on St. Maximus the Confessor. One could hardly find a more string example of the misunderstanding between the two halves of Christendom: a view that Aquinas regards as heretical had, unknown to him, been orthodox in the East since at least the fourth century.

Bradshaw seems to lean towards the strength of Eastern thought, but he acknowledges that within Eastern Christianity there has been considerable less effort to “systematize” theology. I would go farther and say that within Eastern thought there are very few efforts to align mutually contradictory ideas and instead they are just asserted without even acknowledging the tensions. This resolving of tension was not seen as necessary in Eastern thought (perhaps until the last century of two). Palamas did do some de-tensioning though.

Now, while A.N. Williams would deemphasize the conflicts and state that where the conflicts do exist there is no dogmatism on both sides such that resolution was not possible, she still stated:
  • A.N. Williams – The Ground of Union: Deification in Aquinas and Palamas, pages 173-174*
At different points, however, each theologian leans to one side or the other, and they do not always lean in the same direction at the same time. IN the context of the vision of God, for example, Aquinas inclines towards the assertion of direct apprehension of God, while Palamas is willing, via the affirmation of the divine essence’s absolute infiolability, to restrict human access to God if it seems a compromised transcendence would result. In the context of grace, we see precisely the opposite.

All this being said, I claim to be able to read. Deeper plunging into the above issue will stretch my familiarity with Aquinas, Palamas, and philosophical thought/dialogue potentially past its breaking point. In other words, I read the above, I quoted the above, I think I know some about the above, but I am out of my area of comfort.

I think that there is a big conflict between Palamas thought and Aquinas thought. If you want to educate me further on this, that would be fine. If you, CatholicGuyNY want to embrace Palamas thought as your concept of deification, I can express my thoughts about this. I most frequently assume Catholics are Thomists, but I often discover that they are not. I think Thomistic thought builds rather naturally from some non-negotiables that most non-LDS hold, but smarter folks than me disagree (though one smarter folk than me Aquinas agrees).
Charity, TOm
 
I have read this (the only thing I know I need to dive into more is the Theosis Wiki). In my understanding of deification, adoption is being welcomed into the divine family. This inclusion is only perfected after resurrection, but it begins when we accept covenantal-ly accept Christ.

Concerning Palamas and why I frequently think of him as offering ideas at odds with Catholicism, I will present some of my ideas. If you are well versed in what I am about to share, you can surely educate me. If not, then my small understanding will be as it is. Aquinas taught that the beautific vision included all that is God which includes what Palamas would call God’s essence. Palamas taught that Theosis includes ONLY participation in God’s energies because God’s essence is totally unavailable to man. Here are somethings associated with this from two authors I read both long ago and likely poorly:

I suspect that if Aquinas and Palamas were locked in a room, Aquinas would accuse Palamas of DIVINDING God. Aquinas thought in my view was the height of divine simplicity. God is one undivided, pure act no potential, … Palamas would have problems with concepts such as created Grace.

I will quote a long section of Bradshaw (for two reasons, I am quite possibly too thick to adequately digest all of this and certainly my first hand knowledge is limited and from my “too thick state” I think he is making my point).
cont …
Bradshaw seems to lean towards the strength of Eastern thought, but he acknowledges that within Eastern Christianity there has been considerable less effort to “systematize” theology. I would go farther and say that within Eastern thought there are very few efforts to align mutually contradictory ideas and instead they are just asserted without even acknowledging the tensions. This resolving of tension was not seen as necessary in Eastern thought (perhaps until the last century of two). Palamas did do some de-tensioning though.

Now, while A.N. Williams would deemphasize the conflicts and state that where the conflicts do exist there is no dogmatism on both sides such that resolution was not possible, she still stated:

All this being said, I claim to be able to read. Deeper plunging into the above issue will stretch my familiarity with Aquinas, Palamas, and philosophical thought/dialogue potentially past its breaking point. In other words, I read the above, I quoted the above, I think I know some about the above, but I am out of my area of comfort.

I think that there is a big conflict between Palamas thought and Aquinas thought. If you want to educate me further on this, that would be fine. If you, CatholicGuyNY want to embrace Palamas thought as your concept of deification, I can express my thoughts about this. I most frequently assume Catholics are Thomists, but I often discover that they are not. I think Thomistic thought builds rather naturally from some non-negotiables that most non-LDS hold, but smarter folks than me disagree (though one smarter folk than me Aquinas agrees).
Charity, TOm
I think that you missed the point of my post that you were responding to. Eastern Catholics revere St. Palamas officially (he is commemorated in the liturgy/calendar), and due to this, many Eastern Catholics embrace his essence-energies understanding. Similarly, many Roman Catholics embrace the theology/philosophy of Aquinas.

The point is that you seemed to be confused as to why Catholics would point to Palamas’ writings when discussing Theosis, since it seems to be at odds with Aquinas’ view. My answer is that it is not a problem for Catholics to do this since Aquinas was not the Magisterium, Scripture, or Papal Infallibility. The theologies of both men are found within Catholicism (Aquinas more for the Roman Catholics and Palamas for the Eastern Catholics), and a Catholic is free to accept either (or others). While Roman Catholics frequently rely on the writings of Aquinas, his writings are not dogma, so there is no issue here with a Catholic accepting the views of Palamas, who is a saint in the Catholic Church.
 
Okay, Tom, I think it may be helpful for you define what exactly it means to be a “social trinitarian” (since from my brief reading on the matter, the definitions vary depending on the philosopher/theologian espousing such a view. It will also be helpful for you to contrast Social Trinitarianism with the Traditional/Orthodox Trinitarianism.
I believe that I am a Traditional/Orthodox Trinitarian. I do not believe that there is any modalism (whether “neo” or whatever) inherent in the orthodox Trinity doctrine, and that any modalism apparent in the doctrine is due to the misunderstanding of the Trinity, whether by non-Trinitarians or many Trinitarians themselves. So, all of the views that I have presented are consistent with the orthodox Trinity belief. If you believe that they are not (and are calling them “social trinitarianism”, as a theology distinct from the orthodox/traditional Trinity), then as mentioned before, please provide the definitions of both theologies that you are using.

Yes, you are correct that I believe (and traditional Trinitarians believe) that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are homoousios/consubstantial, and that through the Incarnation, Jesus became consubstantial/homoousios with us (and we as humans are consubstantial with each other, in the sense that we all have human nature).
Perhaps it will be helpful for you to define what “neo-modalist” means and how Augustine, Athanasius, and Aquinas were “neo-modalists”.
Eusebius of Caesarea, Athanasius, and Eusebius of Nicodedia were all present at the Council of Nicea. EoC represented the moderate party. EoN was very close to Arius, he ultimately signed the confession, but was exiled as an Arian heretic not long after. And Athanasius was of course the orthodox hero at the council.
Athanasius, Augustine, and Aquinas would all say that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were homoousian in a ground of being way that is at odds with the manner in which all humans are homoousian AND at odds with the way that Christ’s humanity is homoousian with mankind. Often this is expressed by saying God is one being in three persons. This is the neo-modalism I criticize.
Eusebius of Ceasarea was part of the majority moderate party, signed the confession, remained within the church (even when Athanasius was excommunicated by semi-Arian factions who were the majority for a few decades after Nicea), and viewed the word homoousian such that he wrote a letter claiming that God the Father and God the Son were homoousian like a human father and human son. This is the homoousian use that I believe requires a Social Trinity understanding of God’s oneness. It is also the use of homoousian that I see you employ.

As I think you are aware, the word homoousian was condemned by a regional council as modalist many decades before Nicea. Also the word homoousian was used unambiguously in the non-neo-modalist way at the Council of Chalcedon.

When you suggest that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are homoousian in the same way that you and I are homoousian, it is my opinion that you have solidly embraced a Social Trinitarian way of describing the one-ness of God.
The Augustinian Trinity way of describing how God is one AND what homoousian means from the Council of Nicea involves a closer being-relation than just being the same species.

In a dialogue with Richard Abanes from long ago I used the terms “you-me-one-beingness” and “me-me-one-beingness” to highlight the difference. I can embrace Nicea as long as we use the “you-me-one-beingness” (the one Eusebius of Ceasarea embraced) and he embraced Nicea with the “me-me-one-beingness” advocated by Athanasius then Augustine (and generally the church, both Catholic and Protestant) until the last 1-2 centuries.

The emergence of the Social Trinity is a response to the lack of LOGICAL middle ground between tri-theism and modalism. Philosophers have regularly explained how this ground is vanishingly small and some boldly claim it does not exist real or logical way.

When I try to explain what an Augustinian Trinitarian believes from their point of view, I suggest that God is one being in three persons. God is not 3 beings which is tritheism and God is not 1 person who plays three roles which is modalism. But, how to define where oneness ends and threeness begins is at best a mystery and is beyond our human understanding.

As a rejecter of that view, I claim the mystery is accepting a logical contradiction.
cont …
 
Here is something I wrote many years ago:
  1. Modalist:This is the Sabellian heresy. It maintains that God is one, but we experience him as 3 different modes. In human experience we see evidence of a God the Father, Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit. This is just a representation of the one true God. An analogy could even be: Bush is the President, Bush is a Texan, Bush is an exerciser, Bush is one. Sometimes mentioned and generally true is the fact that a fourth nature exists for God that is his real nature encompassing all of his modes.
  2. Modal Trinitarianism: This is similar to the above, but is an attempt at a real Trinitarian structure. We experience God as three different modes as above, and He really is composed of three different modes. There is no fourth “real nature.” God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We experience him as such and he exists as such. This structure is linked to Karl Barth. Critics claim it is just a restatement of the Sabellian heresy.
  3. Augustinian Trinitarianism: While there is some wiggle room in what a Catholic can believe about the Trinity, if I understand correctly it generally centers around this formulation of the Trinity. For simplicity I will state this formulation with just two components, but of course the Holy Spirit is included.
    a. There is exactly one God
    b. The Father is God
    c. The Son is God
    d. The Father is not identical to the Son
    The Trinity is more complex than this, but the above is a good starting point. If you look at a-d, it is a paradox or a mystery to hold all 4 of these positions at once. To distinguish this from the below I must mention some more things. The Father alone is unbegotten and non-proceeding. In Western or Augustinian Trinitarianism the fount of Diety resides in the Father’s Being (the more oneness component) rather than in his person. This allows for the Holy Spirit to proceed from both the Father and the Son. Another distinction is that Augustinian Trinitarianism starts with the oneness and formulates the threeness.
  4. Easter Orthodox Trinitarianism: Same as above except that the fount of Diety resides in the Father’s person. This results in the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father alone. Also the threeness is a starting point from which oneness is formulated.
  5. Social Trinitarianism LDS: God is one and GOD is three. In a simplistic way the term God refers to one thing when it is attached to one and refers to a different but related thing when attached to three. (much of the below is from Ostler)
    a. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct divine persons and one Godhead in virtue of oneness of indwelling unity of presence, glory, and oneness of mind purpose, power and intent. Three wills exist, but the Son and the Holy Ghost freely, perfectly, and always choose to submit their will to the Father’s (the Son and Holy Ghost are subordinate to the Father, but they are fully divine).
    b. The Father is the fount of divinity. The Son and the Holy Ghost exist, but through the indwelling love of the Father are divine. Also, part of divinity is the love of the Father for the Son and Holy Ghost (and of course their love of Him and eachother). Divinity is expressed through the relation of the three, thus one divinity exists.
    c. The unity of the divine persons falls short of identity, but is much more intimate than merely belonging to the same class. There are distinct divine persons, but hardly separated or independent divine persons.
  6. Social Trinitarianism (more Tri-theist): “The Holy Trinity is a divine society or community of three fully personal and fully divine beings…” - Cornelius Plantinga. The Protestant author who presented this possibly didn’t do Plantinga justice, but there is clearly a continuum within Social Trinitarianism.
  7. Tri-theism: Three gods, Father, Son, Holy Ghost. Independent and all fully God.
So, I hope I have explained both my position on the Social Trinity, why I keep suggesting that you are a Social Trinitarian and not an Augustinian Trinitarian.
Please explain your view of God’s oneness and God’s threeness and then we can move from there rather than from labels I try to apply, but it seems that before I wrote the above we were in substantial agreement on the Trinity.
Charity, TOm
 
Catholics do not have a problem with the phrase “men can become gods” (since a similar statement is found in the Catechism). The problem lies in what we mean by that, which I believe you understand.
Yes, I am referring to the ontological link between us and the Father in Mormon theology, stemming from your belief that we are literally the offspring of the Father. This is a very important part of LDS exaltation that separates it from orthodox theosis. Whereas we believe that we “partake” of the divine nature, since we do not have it (and therefore “adopt” it), LDS believe that we already are of the same core nature as God, but that through His grace, we can grow to become more like Him.
Ok.
I agree that one necessary difference between our views is the STARTING point of our deification.
I of course still maintain that we partake of / adopt the divine nature. I just claim that this is the far more important communal, agape (love) nature that exists within the Social Trinity.

Let me clarify here.
You believe that Christ was homoousian with God the Father. You believe that Christ became homoousian with all mankind. Christ is now a dual natured Person.
You believe that we are homoousian with all mankind and through Christ we may become homoousian with God, becoming a dual natured Person.

So for me deification is an adoption into the divine community becoming partakers of the agape nature that perfectly unites God.
For you deification is the adoption into Christ through which men become partakers of the divine nature in that they become homoousian with God and become dual natured persons like Christ.

Is that correct?

Charity, TOm
 
FARMS article comparing the theosis and exaltation, very similar to our doctrine of deification. I found nothing I didn’t agree with, particularly regarding the differences:
Differences
Participation vs. Growth
The most profound difference between the doctrines of theosis and exaltation revolves around the way in which humans become divinized, or become gods. In the doctrine of theosis, divinization comes about through participation in the divine energies of the one divine nature, which divine nature is fully possessed by each of the three divine persons who comprise the Trinity—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In the doctrine of exaltation, divinization comes about through growth of a capacity which is innate to the children born of Heavenly Parents—the Father and his eternal companion. This difference—the difference between participation and growth—can be rooted in two very different ontological understandings of divine nature and human nature.
The doctrine of theosis presupposes that there is a fundamental distinction between uncreated being and created being. God, that is, the three divine persons who are the one God, are understood to be uncreated and eternal. God always has been divine and always will be divine. Human persons, on the other hand, are created from nothing—creatio ex nihilo. They are forever dependent on God for existence. Thus, the divine nature, the nature of God, is fundamentally different from human nature, the nature of human persons. In fact, one can speak of an ontological divide or chasm separating the two: the former is unoriginate, the latter is originate.
The doctrine of exaltation presupposes that God is of the same species as human persons. There is no distinction between uncreated and created beings or persons since all persons, divine as well as human, are uncreated. In other words, intelligence, the core or essence of every person (whether divine or human) is self-existent and eternal, uncreated and uncreatable. Through the process of spirit birth, intelligences are clothed by divine parents with spirit bodies and become autonomous, conscious selves. And just as with human children in relation to their human parents, the spirit children of divine parents possess the innate capacity, as a fact of their spirit birth, to progress and grow up into the likeness of their divine parents.
Thus, for the doctrine of theosis, to become divine means to unite in one created person both his or her own created human nature and the uncreated divine energies of the three uncreated divine persons. In other words, a divinized human person never ceases to be created and human; but insofar as that person is divinized, he or she becomes through grace what he or she is not by nature—divine. Furthermore, to speak of divinization by the divine energies, as opposed to the divine essence, is meant to reflect the ontological distinction between uncreated and created. Only God—the three divine persons—is divine essentially. Only the persons of the Trinity are uncreated and eternal by fact of their nature. Human persons cannot become divine essentially because this would be a logical contradiction. What humans are in essence, by nature, is created and dependent. The divine energies are God himself insofar as he shares his uncreated nature with created persons, thus divinizing them. In this sense, the divinized person is always both created and uncreated, finite and infinite: created and finite by nature, uncreated and infinite by grace, by reason of union with God’s divinizing energies. The divinized person becomes all that God is except for identity in essence, which is to say, without ceasing to be created and finite.
In contrast, within the context of the doctrine of exaltation, there is no ontological divide or distinction between human and divine—divine and human do not refer to ontological categories.3 Instead, divine and human signify different levels of progression within a continuum. In other words, some uncreated intelligences have progressed to the point of godhood (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost), while other uncreated intelligences have not and are thus dependent on those who have already done so to attain godhood themselves (human persons). Thus, because humans and God already share a like essence, at some future time humans, as exalted beings, can become exactly as God now is…
…cont
 
Even given this profound difference rooted in ontology, the difference between participation and growth, the doctrines of theosis and exaltation both agree in teaching that divinized humans are always subordinate to the God who makes their divinization a reality. In the case of theosis, this subordination is clearly founded on ontology: those who become “gods by grace” are as dependent for their status as gods as they are for their very existence and being. And while the doctrine of exaltation has as premises the ontological independence of human persons from God and the innate potential of humans to become gods, based on being literally children of divine parents, this is not meant to imply that divinized persons will ever become greater than God or cease to be related to God after the attainment of exaltation.
Latter-day Saints do not, or at least should not, believe that they will ever be independent in all eternity from their Father in heaven or from their Savior Jesus Christ or from the Holy Spirit. Those who are exalted by his grace will always be “gods” (always with a small g, even in the Doctrine and Covenants) by grace, by an extension of his power, and will always be subordinate to the Godhead.4
Despite what our critics claim, the Latter-day Saints do not believe that human beings will ever become the equals of God, or be independent of God, or that they will ever cease to be subordinate to God.5
So just as human children have within their very being the capacity to become mature human adults, provided they receive the assistance of their parents, the doctrine of exaltation teaches that while human persons are ontologically independent of God and have within their very nature a capacity to become divine, they can do so, ultimately, only by the grace of God. In this sense, it is appropriate to refer to exalted persons as “gods by grace” as well.
maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/papers/?paperID=7&chapterID=63
 
Here is something I wrote many years ago:

So, I hope I have explained both my position on the Social Trinity, why I keep suggesting that you are a Social Trinitarian and not an Augustinian Trinitarian.
Please explain your view of God’s oneness and God’s threeness and then we can move from there rather than from labels I try to apply, but it seems that before I wrote the above we were in substantial agreement on the Trinity.
Charity, TOm
From this post and the one before that, it seems to me that we are using different definitions of what the orthodox Trinity is, and what “modalism” is. You state that saying “God is one being in three persons” is “neo-modalism”, still without clarification as to what “neo-modalism” is. I hope that you are aware that the word “being” as used in Trinitarian discourse is not used in the same way that it is used in everyday language, where we say that “being” can be used interchangeably with “person”. This is clear when we realize the various ways that “ousia” is translated in Trinitarian discussion, including in the Catechism (which refers to the oneness of the Three as one of nature, essence, etc). This seems to be why you think the orthodox Trinity is some sort of modalism, when it isn’t according to the definition of “being” that Trinitarians are using.

I believe that I did already state that homoousios was used by modalists, to equate being with person and say that the Three are all the same Person, but that the Nicene Fathers redefined it to refer to something 100% different from “person”.

I believe that I also already stated that although we are homoousios with each other in a sense (which is how the Atonement was effected, since we are homoousios with Jesus in His human nature), the oneness of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is a oneness that is beyond our comprehension. It is not just a oneness of nature, but a oneness of love, will, mind, intent, purpose, etc. This is something that no three humans can experience. When the Nicene Fathers declared the Son consubstantial with the Father, they were really addressing the issue of the origin of the Son, and denied that He was a created entity. By stating that He is consubstantial with the Father, they were saying that He is co-eternal with the Father, since one characteristic of deity is being eternal. If He is of the same nature as the Father, then He is eternal as well.

Your definition of “Augustinian Trinity” does not make sense to me. If the fount of deity rests in the Father’s being and not person, then we could then say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from Himself, or that the Son begets Himself, since they all are of the same being/essence (which is what consubstantial/homoousios means). Since this is of course false, I would say that the so-called Augustinian Trinity agrees with the so-called Eastern Orthodox Trinity in stating that the fount of deity rests in the Person of the Father (or the Father’s Person). When Catholics state that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, we are stating that He proceeds from the Son in a secondary sense. This is also clear in the allowed reformulation of “from the Father and the Son” to “from the Father through the Son” (which the East has no problem with). So, based on this (as well as more recent agreements on the issue by both churches), I disagree with your definitions. The difficulty stemmed in differences between Greek and Latin words for “proceed”.

So anyway, I still do not see my views as expressing anything contrary to the orthodox/traditional Trinity. My views on the matter come from Ecumenical Councils, the Catechism, and Catholic authors (Theology and Sanity by Sheed is excellent on clearly explaining the Trinity doctrine and showing the difference between “person” and “being” (which he refers to as “nature”, as I do). I do not see any “neo-modalism” apparent in the Trinity, except by those that misunderstand what we mean by the word “being”. Since it isn’t used as it is used in everyday language, one needs to understand that “being” is not used interchangeably with “person” in Trinity language, otherwise they will confuse the orthodox Trinity with modalism (whether “neo” or otherwise).
 
Ok.
I agree that one necessary difference between our views is the STARTING point of our deification.
I of course still maintain that we partake of / adopt the divine nature. I just claim that this is the far more important communal, agape (love) nature that exists within the Social Trinity.

Let me clarify here.
You believe that Christ was homoousian with God the Father. You believe that Christ became homoousian with all mankind. Christ is now a dual natured Person.
You believe that we are homoousian with all mankind and through Christ we may become homoousian with God, becoming a dual natured Person.

So for me deification is an adoption into the divine community becoming partakers of the agape nature that perfectly unites God.
For you deification is the adoption into Christ through which men become partakers of the divine nature in that they become homoousian with God and become dual natured persons like Christ.

Is that correct?

Charity, TOm
For me, deification is the partaking of the divine nature, becoming co-heirs with and in Christ, where we become by grace what God is by nature. We are sanctified by God’s grace, and become homoousios with God, while still maintaining our human nature and the distinction from God’s essence.
 
I just read this entire thread and am already worn out. If this has been mentioned already please accept my apology as this was all a lot to digest and much is a blur at this point.

When speaking of the Trinity I believe it all comes down to relationship. The Father is eternally Father in relationship to the Son. The Son is eternally the Son in relationship to the Father. The love between the Father and the Son is eternally the Holy Spirit.

A human being is a creature. God is the Creator. We will never be the Creator, we will always be creatures. The beatific vision, the participation of humans in the inner life of the Trinity, is deification of sorts, but not deification as I understand the Mormon view. While we may enjoy the actual life of God, even becoming one with him, does not change the fact that we will always remain creatures, just as the angels in heaven will always be creatures. There will always be only one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The idea of advancing in some way which ultimately brings us to a state of “Godhood” is a perilous road to travel in my opinion. Our oneness with God is a result of completely gratuitous love.
 
FARMS article comparing the theosis and exaltation, very similar to our doctrine of deification. I found nothing I didn’t agree with, particularly regarding the differences:

…cont
The link should be helpful in discovering the meaning of Mormon deification, thanks
 
Ok. I am trying to focus on the areas where I perceive the charge of illogic is being leveled. This originally started because to my observation Stephen168 claimed that the LDS idea that “men can become gods” was just irrational. I am coming to find out that his charge has to do with what he thinks LDS mean when they say this rather than having to do with a philosophically precise description of this concept by a LDS.
My claim that Mormon belief is irrational came from your explanation of God on another thread; which I summarized:
Originally Posted by TomNossor on Mormon Theology:
  1. God was a man; not an ordinary man
  2. God can make anyone God
  3. God did not create everything.
You said it wasn’t exactly what you meant, so I invited you to clarify, which you declined. Instead you said Catholics believe man will become gods, too (the “tu quoque” logical fallacy). I suggested Mormons belief in ‘becoming a god” was something completely different from the Catholic belief. At that point you attacked what you thought (strawman) was a Catholic belief instead of defending the Mormon belief. (tu quoque?) Because you chose not to defend Mormonism, I was to conclude; my summary was correct and it was irrational.

Now you declare that I am attacking a straw man but you have done little to help explain what the Mormon Church teaches. It seems like a cheap personal attack to me.

Thanks to a Catholic poster, it seems Mormons call it exaltation. With that knowledge I have been able to try to understand it for myself, which so far, does little to contradict my summary of your explanation of God, and what I had understood Mormons mean by becoming a god.

Now that it seems you have moved on to attacking what you believe is the Catholic trinity (God), I can only assume you have finished trying to explain exaltation and how it might be logically consistent.

Take care
 
I’m still trying to get a clear understand of what the Mormon Church teaches as deification. Joseph Smith said God the father was once a man on a planet and is now exalted in heaven. You say becoming a god will include receiving worlds/kingdoms. Can I assume that when a Mormon says they will become a god they will be a god in the same way God the father is God except never be equal in seniority?
Stephen168, I hope that you think I have tried to answer every question you have asked me. I think that I have. This question will be no exception. That said, I do not think you have answered the questions that I have asked you and I would like for you to do so. In addition to all the questions I have already posed to you, I want to know your take on how God the Son is homoousian with God the Father and if we are to become homoousian with God when deified. I will get to CatholicGuyNY’s comments shortly. I think he has tried to answer the questions I have offered him. I still lean strongly towards the view that whatever we call it his view of homoousian is the Social Trinitarian view that I hold which is fine by my lights (though Bryan Cross would be concerned).

On you your question.
As is obvious to me by my discussion on this thread, Catholics do not all agree on major theological tenets. LDS do not either, but such comes as no surprise to virtually all theologically versed LDS. We just know there are few official answers and thus there are a great deal of different ideas. Still, I personally follow the frequently heralded (as the most thorough and complete presentation of LDS thought yet compiled) positions detailed in the Exploring Mormon Thought series by Blake Ostler. I am in quite solid company and the position I follow is celebrated by most LDS intellectuals if not embraced in every fine point.

So you asked, “Can I assume that when a Mormon says they will become a god they will be a god in the same way God the father is God except never be equal in seniority?” the answer depends upon what else is included in that assumption. I embrace the idea that we are to become gods by GRACE and not because of something eternally true for (or even deserving of) us. God the Father is eternally God and did not need to be lifted to such a position.
In the KFD, which you quote, Joseph Smith starts his explanation of how the Father was a man by quoting John 5:19. I think the most clear understanding of the KFD is that the Father was like the Son in His humanity (or more correctly the Son is like the Father, but we know a lot more about how LDS and Christians in general view the humanity of the Son). The Father and the Son were God before they become man. They participated in a kenosis or emptying, but however this is acknowledge it still did not lead them to sin. They were fully man. And then they returned to the fullness of communion they previously enjoyed.
We are different in that we sin, we must be lifted to God, and we were not communed in the same why Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were before our incarnation. We are the same in that what makes the appellation, “god” true of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit IS that they are communed perfectly in the indwelling union with the Father as the Head AND we will be communed perfectly in the indwelling union with the Father as the Head.

Again you asked, “Can I assume that when a Mormon says they will become a god they will be a god in the same way God the father is God except never be equal in seniority?” The answer is “yes” if you mean our final state and you neglect the fact that the Father is still the fount of divinity (this last caveat would not apply if you asked if we would be gods as the Son is God). The answer is “no” if you include how we got there and our dependent nature upon God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Since I defined “divinity as such” in the way I did, I would answer “yes,” but I do not want you to be confused.

Now, I hope you will be answering the question that I have posed to you throughout this thread AND the ones I have mentioned in this thread. The ones from this thread, How is God the Son homoousian with God the Father; please flesh this out? Are we to become homoousian with God when deified?
Charity, TOm
 
I think that you missed the point of my post that you were responding to. Eastern Catholics revere St. Palamas officially (he is commemorated in the liturgy/calendar), and due to this, many Eastern Catholics embrace his essence-energies understanding. Similarly, many Roman Catholics embrace the theology/philosophy of Aquinas.
The point is that you seemed to be confused as to why Catholics would point to Palamas’ writings when discussing Theosis, since it seems to be at odds with Aquinas’ view. My answer is that it is not a problem for Catholics to do this since Aquinas was not the Magisterium, Scripture, or Papal Infallibility. The theologies of both men are found within Catholicism (Aquinas more for the Roman Catholics and Palamas for the Eastern Catholics), and a Catholic is free to accept either (or others). While Roman Catholics frequently rely on the writings of Aquinas, his writings are not dogma, so there is no issue here with a Catholic accepting the views of Palamas, who is a saint in the Catholic Church.
  1. I understand that neither Aquinas nor Palamas are “Magisterium, Scripture, or Papal Infallibility.” The degree to which Aquinas has affected Western Catholic thought at the scholarly level (especially until the last 1-2 centuries) seems to make it easier for me to start with the assumption that Thomistic thought is the norm. Among internet apologists the acceptance of Thomistic thought is usually something they do uncritically and then later discover what is present. The same for Palamas.
  2. It should be noted that Aquinas among Catholic intellectuals is a far more universally accepted than is any single theology among LDS intellectuals. But, if you are willing to let me define what I believe, I will be willing to let you define what you believe.
For me, deification is the partaking of the divine nature, becoming co-heirs with and in Christ, where we become by grace what God is by nature. We are sanctified by God’s grace, and become homoousios with God, while still maintaining our human nature and the distinction from God’s essence.
  1. Your view here is at odds with Palamas thought. Not only must one experience God’s nature/essence to become homoousios with God, they must partake/adopt that nature/essence. Palamas would reject this. I maintain that Aquinas would as well but for a “dividing of the divine essence” reason rather than for the “absolute transcendence of the divine essence” reason.
I hope to talk more about neo-modalism in some future post.
Charity, TOm
 
My claim that Mormon belief is irrational came from your explanation of God on another thread; which I summarized:
Stephen168,
Here is what I said to you the last time you presented this quote. Please stop using the quote function to say things that I DID NOT SAY.
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6544249&postcount=64
TOmNossor; 6544249:
TOmNossor; 6544249:
I suspect you didn’t intend to misrepresent what I said, but you gave the impression you were quoting (by using the quote function) and then your summarization of my statements was IMO lacking.
I do not believe this is acceptable please stop.
I will try to get to other stuff later.
Charity, TOm
 
So, I assert that there is One God who is the perfect indwelling unity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. That God the Father is the “fons divinitatis” and thus the Son and the Holy Spirit align with Him (the Son conforms His will to the Father’s will, but I would generally not say that Father conforms His will to the Son’s. I am sure there is no conflict, but the Father is the Head). We are to become united to the Father and the Trinity through the atonement worked out by and strength given from the Son. We are to become united to the Father and the Trinity through the witness and guidance of the Spirit. And we are to become united to the Father and the Trinity drawn by the perfect love that comes from God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. When we “see Him as He is” we will be gods. We will always be subordinate in that the Father is the Head and we could not come to Him without the Son and the Holy Spirit (because we could not / did not join the Father without the atonement and …). IMO if we fulfill God’s will for us we will always worship God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; but perfectly united within an indwelling unity of love we will be gods.

It is my opinion that the ontological definition of divinity offered at Nicea where God the Son is God because He is “homoousian” with God the Father makes logical deification difficult. That being said, as a Catholic I would lean toward the view that the God/man Jesus Christ became homoousain with all mankind while continuing to be homoousian with God the Father; therefore, men can retain their humanness and become man/gods via somehow becoming homoousian with God. To the extent that homoousian is defined in a way that make this illogical, then I guess it is. I think there are ways out of this quandary, but that is a question for Catholic theologians. In print I have not seen them accept a full form of deification but instead say, ~”Christ became completely what we are, but we only partially become what He is.”

Anyway, I think that is what I wanted to say for now.
Charity, TOm
I think the view you are positing is illogical in as much as you speak of full deification. It seems that you are saying that we become exactly what God the Father is, and in the end we possess it independent of whether we are in union with Him. You point to the Catholic position as saying that ‘we only parially become what He is.’ I am not exactly sure what that means. The Catholic teaching is that we recieve all the attributes of God through participation in His nature, but there is always a distinction between God who is uncreated by nature and us who may participate in uncreatedness. We can never cease to be a created being, but we can participate in God’s uncreated attributes through communion with Him. Through the Incarnation we have the opportunity to become infinite even though we are finite, eternal even though we are temporal, immortal even though we are mortal.
 
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