A horrific realization

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montanaman

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I’m starting to think the Prots aren’t 100% wrong in their take on salvation. I never thought there was absolutely NO truth in their views, varied as they are, but emotionally speaking, one of their arguments is starting to make a lot more sense.

I’ve had some cordial run-ins with a couple of Protestants lately. Salvation always comes up, primarily, I assume, because they’re always asking me if I’m “saved.” I give them the Catholic answer–“I’m working on it”–and they press me from all kinds of angles. It always comes down to the same conversation. I always ask them if they really believe that if a person sins gravely, he wasn’t really “saved” in the first place, and then push to show how absurd such thinking is. If you believe that, only two conclusions are possible: 1) The truly “saved” can no longer sin–at least not so bad you lose Heaven. Or 2), you can never have assurance of salvation, because even if you reconvert you can never know if THIS conversion really “took.”

Until the last week or so, the Catholic case for working out our salvation in “fear and trembling” has seemed airtight. But my recent actions have rocked my faith in repentence and even free will.

I won’t go into the details, but I’ve fallen–hard. I’ve done something I didn’t think I was capable of. (No, nothing illegal). I’ve been through the fires–mostly of my own making–all my life, but my recent “reversion” has been so cleansing, so peace-filled, that I thought I was well-equipped to handle anything. But now, I see that not only have I not changed, I’m worse than I’ve ever been.

This is what makes me question the power of grace. If I thought I was sincere all this time, how could I be so stupid? I used to flirt with the idea that predestination is the way it is, that God creates people knowing perfectly well who would choose Hell. Until this week, I had been able to forget that and believe what the Church teaches. Now, I’m pretty sure some of us are marked. I don’t blame God–I totally blame myself for my sins–but I am carved out and empty, hating myself more than I ever have before.

How can there be repentence for someone who, with full knowledge of his actions, sins gravely? I don’t know. I doubt it’s possible.
 
Salvation should be approached with fear and trembling, this is a from a Protestant by the way.
I realize why that is so important. If you want to know what check out how these once saved always saved “Christians” behave.
p197.ezboard.com/fformercatholicsforchristfrm1
I will warn you, though, these people are 100% evil and don’t realize it, but see the “fruit” of such idealogy.
 
Montanaman,

Get a hold of yourself. I think your mistake here is your assumption that “grace” is going to protect you from sinning. Sorry pal, but short of a great gift of God, you are going to have to work WITH the grace God gives to you.

Why do you think we work out our salvation in “fear and trembling”? It is exactly because we possess the freedom to reject God’s gift of eternal life. You did this, by your own admission, freely. Repent dude. Your story is the story of the prodigal son. Get off your a** and get to confession. Your Father in heaven is waiting for you with the ring and cloak. You are not expected to be perfect, you are expected to be faithful. If you fall down, get up. Think of yourself as a prize fighter that has just been knocked down. As long as you get back up before the bell rings you are still in the match.

Just the fact that you have a repentant spirit about your sins shows that you are not lost. I would be more worried about you if you were absolutely closed to the idea of obtaining the forgiveness of your sins. Ultimately, your problem is not with God’s grace, it is with your presumption that you are better than you are. Welcome to the sinner’s club pal! 🙂 Around here we call it the Catholic Church.

Your brother in Christ through Mary,

Jamieshub
 
Yo, Montana. Welcome to the big people’s table.

And how does the Protestant interpreation of salvation help you? Ya blew it. What’s the response? Pick yourself up, thank God for the mercy that allows you to turn back to Him. Beg him for the grace to stay on the straight & narrow. Go to Confession.
And remember: the reason God gave us free will was so that we could love, and he will never take that from us. The downside is . . . well, I guess you know the downside.
 
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montanaman:
I’m starting to think the Prots aren’t 100% wrong in their take on salvation. I never thought there was absolutely NO truth in their views, varied as they are, but emotionally speaking, one of their arguments is starting to make a lot more sense.I’ve had some cordial run-ins with a couple of Protestants lately. Salvation always comes up, primarily, I assume, because they’re always asking me if I’m “saved.” I give them the Catholic answer–“I’m working on it”–and they press me from all kinds of angles. It always comes down to the same conversation. I always ask them if they really believe that if a person sins gravely, he wasn’t really “saved” in the first place, and then push to show how absurd such thinking is. If you believe that, only two conclusions are possible: 1) The truly “saved” can no longer sin–at least not so bad you lose Heaven. Or 2), you can never have assurance of salvation, because even if you reconvert you can never know if THIS conversion really "took."Until the last week or so, the Catholic case for working out our salvation in “fear and trembling” has seemed airtight. But my recent actions have rocked my faith in repentence and even free will.I won’t go into the details, but I’ve fallen–hard. I’ve done something I didn’t think I was capable of. (No, nothing illegal). I’ve been through the fires–mostly of my own making–all my life, but my recent “reversion” has been so cleansing, so peace-filled, that I thought I was well-equipped to handle anything. But now, I see that not only have I not changed, I’m worse than I’ve ever been.This is what makes me question the power of grace. If I thought I was sincere all this time, how could I be so stupid? I used to flirt with the idea that predestination is the way it is, that God creates people knowing perfectly well who would choose Hell. Until this week, I had been able to forget that and believe what the Church teaches. Now, I’m pretty sure some of us are marked. I don’t blame God–I totally blame myself for my sins–but I am carved out and empty, hating myself more than I ever have before.How can there be repentence for someone who, with full knowledge of his actions, sins gravely? I don’t know. I doubt it’s possible.
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Brother Montanaman:

Get with it. Stop surrounding yourself with these shallow-minded ignorant Protestants. Meet some folks at your local Catholic parish, singles group, good intellectual “men’s reading group”, whatever. They have some very good ones at many churches. Stop being so influenced. You have a good mind, use it. Please dear brother, don’t succomb to the 30’s mentality today.

God Bless~~
 
Thanks, guys (and/or gals). This site is responsible for kicking me in the *** and making me take my faith seriously, and it’s responses like this that did it. I know that I’m not thinking clearly right now, and it’s going to pass, but in the midst of it one might forget that…

I know there is no other option but to get to Confession. I’ve tried to live the “other” way, and I know it doesn’t work–it’s death. But right now I barely feel worthy to go to Confession, especially since I’ve been going there so frequently lately. Maybe you also know how hard it is to realize God’s mercy when, if someone kept coming to me with the same problem, over and over, I’d tell them to get lost. I know Christ will forgive us when we come to him with a repentant heart, but after my ceaseless hypocrisy, I have to wonder–despite the “feelings”–if I am truly repentant. How can I repent and promise to amend my life when I have no faith that I’ll be able to overcome–even with all the grace available to me?

Like I said, I’ll go. I’ll confess. I’ll promise not to sin again, and to avoid the near occasion of sin. But I suspect that this endless cycle is going to drive me insane long before I meet my Maker.

On a side note, even though my vision is restricted to a long, narrow tunnel, at the end of which is flames, your posts cracked me up. They sound like something I would say–and have said before. I hate whiners, and I hate being one now. I respect strength and un-PC advice. So, thanks. I needed that. How about some more?
 
Lily–

Not to change the subject, (though the purgative aspects of writing this out and receiving responses has already helped…) but that site you linked to is abominable. It brings a quote to mind by Kent Brockman on The Simpsons. I paraphrase: “As I’ve always said, ‘Democracy doesn’t work.’” Free speech really is overrated…

Sparkle–

I surround myself with Protestants for two reasons: they’re the only ones around, apparently, and its in these battles that my faith and intellect is sharpened. I have a potential remedy to both, though–I have pretensions of starting an apologetics club in the D.C. area. Maybe it’s a call, maybe it’s just inense hubris, but I feel some kind of call…

There is no danger that I’ll ever become Protestant unless, after some terrible accident, I’m lobotomized.
 
Ok, how about this, Mtman:

My husband often repeats this quote: “The difference between saints and sinners is that the saints kept on trying.”

So, what’s the deal? Why do you think you’re so special that you are afforded the gift of giving up and ceasing the battle?
Of COURSE Satan is going to zero in on you. You’ve been doing well for a while, your mind is opening up to some ideas previously thought to be “no way-ers” such as the concept of salvation and what it means…so he is going to jump all over this fantastic opportunity to shake up your faith.

Get out there and keep on trying. You are a sinner, just like me and the rest of the world, and we are called to repent when we sin–no matter the sin.

Get these self defeating and futile thoughts outta your head–you are not worthy of even having them!

How’s that for pants kicking?
😃
 
Salvation

Are you saved?

Look at it this way… You have been saved, you are being saved and you will be saved. All by the grace of God. It is a continuous process in the Catholic Church and that is why we have such a hard time answering the question.

Have you accepted Jesus into your heart as your Saviour and do you have a personal relationship with Jesus?

Yes, I have accepted Jesus into my life and into my body well (everytime at the Eucharist). He dwells in me and through His body, I have the closest possible relationship with Him.

Confession

Remember that God pours out his grace upon in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. You need his grace in abundance and it is there waiting for you.

Peace be with you
 
Thanks, Carrie,

I may have given the wrong impression–I didn’t mean to say that I thought I was better than sinners, or that an abundance of grace could never prevent such a brilliant, moral Catholic such as myself from sinning. What I tried to express was the horrific realization of the degree to which we are still vulnerable. I’ve never thought I was invulnerable–but I did think it would take a heck of a lot more to fall as hard as I have. I thought I was stronger–not invincible. It turns out I’m not even strong.
 
You have to remember that much in Protestant theology is sometimes at least theorhetically plausible and in many cases agrees with Catholic theology. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Scott
 
No, you’re not strong. You’ve got to stop relying on yourself and start relying on Christ. The next time you feel tempted, run away from the source of the tempation, and beg God for grace. Someone pointed out to me that St. Anthony used to run outside and throw himself in the snow when he felt tempted. You can receive graces in so many ways. Offer up to God every little suffering or inconvenience you experience. Unite your temptations with the suffering of Christ on the cross. Jesus himself was tempted! Submit to the will of God, not to your weak flesh, and turn your eyes onto heavenly things.

PRAY, PRAY, PRAY!!!
 
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montanaman:
I won’t go into the details, but I’ve fallen–hard. I’ve done something I didn’t think I was capable of. (No, nothing illegal). I’ve been through the fires–mostly of my own making–all my life, but my recent “reversion” has been so cleansing, so peace-filled, that I thought I was well-equipped to handle anything. But now, I see that not only have I not changed, I’m worse than I’ve ever been.

.
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The following Gospel verses may help you understand the spiritual dynamic of falling back into worse sin. Need to be wary, the devil is always looking to exploit our weakness and overconfidence and then make us feel condemned. First confession, then get back on track, hopefully a bit wiser and more humble. :banghead:

Luke

Chapter 11

24 "When an unclean spirit goes out of someone, it roams through arid regions searching for rest but, finding none, it says, ‘I shall return to my home from which I came.’

25 But upon returning, it finds it swept clean and put in order.

26 Then it goes and brings back seven other spirits more wicked than itself who move in and dwell there, and the last condition of that person is worse than the first."
 
Felra,

Thought you might want to know that you may be part of some kind of divine intervention…

While in the grip of self-loathing and revulsion earlier today, I pulled out my Bible and flipped it open hoping–perhaps superstitiously as I sometimes do–to find something in there that “speaks” to me about my current situation. I landed on the first page of the Gospel of Luke. I quickly scanned the page, hoping to see something, but nothing jumped out (with the possible exception of seeing that the first few verses contain both a possible defense of oral Tradition AND something Prots could use to attempt a defense of sola scriptura…)

I was almost immediately distracted, closed the Bible, and attended to the distraction. (Phone call).

Afterward, I got the Bible again, and randomly flipped it open. This time, I opened to chapter 2 of Luke.

Keep in mind that this is a big, fat, new Catholic study Bible. It has no bookmarks or chapter tabs. It’s so heavy and big that even if you spend some time on a page, iit’s not likely to crease at whatever page you read.

Now, you’re quoting me a disturbingly poignant verse from Luke…

Alright, God, you got it! I’ll read Luke!
 
Hi Montanaman,

We had a priest in college who said, “The man who sins, goes to confession, and commits the same sin again and again, but still goes to confession is better than the man who comes to Communion un-confessed every week as if everything is fine.”

I’ve always remembered that homily.

And you ARE repentant. I think you’re just afraid that God can’t (?!) or won’t forgive you. Don’t limit God.

God does know what choices you will make. You don’t. All you know is what you choose right now and what you hope to choose in the future.

Keep your eyes on the prize and save a spot for me.

Gem
 
About that link I posted, WARNING!!!

From another poster who visited that board: No one should go to ezboard. It is a spyware trap. I cleaned over 100 “objects” and still haven’t gotten them all. I am still infected with “Quickbrowser” and can’t seem to get rid of it. I warn everyone to NOT go to that site. It will infect their computer.
 
The EZ board thing is completely true. I also got a bunch of spyware. I was able to clean it all off though (I think) check out the program “adaware”—it cleans out spyware type files really well.

-PM
 
Montanaman,

Any time we have repeated sin it is worthwhile to tell this to your confessor and ask him for specific advice to overcome it. Also spend time before the Blessed Sacrament and pray with all your heart to the Lord.

During the course of our day to day routines we can pray and this will go a long way in over coming sin. Praying all day is possible, but this doesn’t mean non-stop or mantra like prayer. Instead, start with a brief prayer when you wake up in the morning and then pray when you leave for work. Your next prayer interval will be when you arrive at your place of work. Every time you transition from one activity to another merely say a short prayer. Your prayers should always include intentions of thanksgiving and praise of God. You can then follow with requests to overcome a particular sin or for spiritual growth.

These prayers take only brief moments but they add up to a substantial amount of time once your day and evening are over. After doing this for awhile you will have given yourself and everything in your life completely over to God. Over time satan will be frustrated in his efforts to tempt you.

God’s love and mercy are boundless. We may struggle but He is always there for us. We do not need confidence in ourselves. We all fail, but we must place all of our confidence in God. God loves His children and He desires that we cultivate a close relationship with Him. Struggling with sin and depending on God for strength and mercy brings us closer to our beloved Father in heaven.

Let nothing distract you from your desire to know and love God. The Holy Spirit will do the rest.
 
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montanaman:
I used to flirt with the idea that predestination is the way it is, that God creates people knowing perfectly well who would choose Hell. Until this week, I had been able to forget that and believe what the Church teaches. Now, I’m pretty sure some of us are marked.
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It would seem that you may need to fully understand Catholic theology. To the best of my knowledge: We Catholics do accept predestination to heaven but not to hell. The Church also stands firm in the teaching that we have free will. The Church also grants that free will in the light of positive predestination is mysterious indeed. However, just like the Trinity, just because something is mysterious does not mean it is not true. Remember, God indicates in Scripture that His thoughts are above us.

Greg
 
Brother montanaman in Christ:

We all go through what you are going through at some point or at several points in our lives. Maybe this advice can help you (I hope and pray it will):

When I find myself caught in an almost vicious, seemingly-inescapable, seemingly-endless cycle of committing the same sins, I try to find out which saint in the history of Holy Mother Church has committed–without par, so far–the most of a similar sin or similar sins while he or she was still alive. Once I identify that brother or sister or both(or even more than two of them, for that matter), I will immediately pray to him or her or them to help me in my dilemma.

These brothers and sisters of ours, you see, have already finally overcome the same sins-- the same vicious, seemingly-inescapable, seemingly-endless cycle of sinning–we are caught in right now–because they are already now in heaven with God. Remember that they have allowed our Lord Holy Spirit to work in their lives, to allow Him to defeat these sins and this sinning in their lives. When they died, God has crowned His works in them–one of which, of course, is the eradication of their sinfulness.

So pray to the saints, especially those who sinned the most while they were still on earth. And, brother, they will always respond to you and will help you pick yourself up and get back into the race for eternal life.

Shalom, amen.

P.S. Read the “Confessions” of St. Augustine. That book is a Life Changer and a Saint Maker.
 
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