A Human Argument About Transubstantiation

[Truthstalker]

A human body, by its very nature, is localized. Likewise with Christ’s human body, now localized in heaven. Christ’s human nature is united with His divine nature, and it is fair to say that where God the Son is, Jesus is, and where one acts, the other acts as well. The Son is simple, like the Father: one in being, action, will, thought and quality. The Son is ubiquitious. Yet the human body, united with Him, is complex and local.

This thread will quickly get past my ability to deal with the subject matter.

The problem is that Jesus said, “this is My body.” The problem is that He is now in heaven. As a body is localized, it cannot be in two places at once, let alone ten thousand or more. A body is localized in one place, and one place alone. And yes, I have heard of bilocation. Perhaps an explanation for that can be thrown in here as well.

So please explain how, in Catholic theology, His body is simultaneously in heaven and in ten thousand (or more) places. Please cite sources. Thank you.

 

[LilyM]

Very simply Christ’s body, being the body of Incarnate God, doesn’t have to obey all the normal laws of physics that our human bodies do.

Remember after his resurrection he appeared to his disciples - apparently going through walls, since the room they were in was locked the whole time? Though in most other respects (the wounds, the ability to eat) it was a normal human body?

And how after accompanying the disciples along the Road to Emmaus, after they recognised Him in the breaking of the bread he disappeared into thin air?

And how he ascended into heaven, defying the law of gravity?

Certainly a body which can defy physical laws in these ways can also defy the law that it must only be in one place at one time.

 

[brianwalden]

So please explain how, in Catholic theology, His body is simultaneously in heaven and in ten thousand (or more) places. Please cite sources. Thank you.

I can’t give you a great answer, but Jesus gave us a hint to how this works in the miracle of the multiplication of the loves. How did Jesus divide a few loaves of bread and fishes to feed thousands of people? This is a foreshadowing to how He feeds us with His body.

 

[mercygate]

A human body, by its very nature, is localized. Likewise with Christ’s human body, now localized in heaven. Christ’s human nature is united with His divine nature, and it is fair to say that where God the Son is, Jesus is, and where one acts, the other acts as well. The Son is simple, like the Father: one in being, action, will, thought and quality. The Son is ubiquitious. Yet the human body, united with Him, is complex and local.

This thread will quickly get past my ability to deal with the subject matter.

The problem is that Jesus said, “this is My body.” The problem is that He is now in heaven. As a body is localized, it cannot be in two places at once, let alone ten thousand or more. A body is localized in one place, and one place alone. And yes, I have heard of bilocation. Perhaps an explanation for that can be thrown in here as well.

So please explain how, in Catholic theology, His body is simultaneously in heaven and in ten thousand (or more) places. Please cite sources. Thank you.

The term “substance” as in trans-“substance”-iation refers not to the physical properties of the Body of Christ (which is not bread) but to the essence of His Body which is spirit – because God is spirit. I think the word “spirit” in popular usage means “not substantial” or “symbolic”. In theology it is very real. So the real presence is a mystical presence and is not local-ized the way a material body is localized. Also, the Resurrection Body had properites we do not see in our own pre-Resurrection state (or even in Jesus’ pre-Resurrection state). It is not limited in the same way.

Another point in your post. The Son does not have “one will” as you state. Jesus had two wills, a human and a divine will but both were in perfect harmony. The attribution of one will to the Son is the early heresy known as monothelitism.

 

[Todd_Easton]

In his 1968 Credo of the People of God, Pope Paul VI briefly explains it this way:26. The unique and indivisible existence of the Lord glorious in heaven is not multiplied, but is rendered present by the sacrament in the many places on earth where the eucharistic sacrifice is celebrated.

 

[Truthstalker]

Lily’s reasoning is logical, but does not solve the question.

Agreed. After reading Theodoret I am more or less convinced it is almost impossible to say ANYTHING about the nature of the hypostasis without committing heresy. I meant God the Son has one will (divine). I did not say Jesus also has a will (human). He does.

Jesus’ human nature is human. His body is human - physical. His spirit is spirit and his body is a body. His spirit is not his body. His body rose from the dead. Hmmmm.

The 1968 quote needs some explanation. It refers to “existence” and suggests something parallel to “re-presentation” to me.

There is a reason this is termed a mystery (Gk mysterion, Latin sacramentum).

 

[Pax]

The Lord’s glorified body as seen by the apostles after the resurrection is indeed localized in heaven. Jesus body, blood, soul, and divinity are, however, “sacramentally” present in the Eucharist. This is a great mystery and we can not explain this in logical human terms. It is simply a miracle and a mystery.

 

[mercygate]

After reading Theodoret I am more or less convinced it is almost impossible to say ANYTHING about the nature of the hypostasis without committing heresy.

Ain’t THAT the truth!

 

[ljprevo]

A human body, by its very nature, is localized. Likewise with Christ’s human body, now localized in heaven. Christ’s human nature is united with His divine nature, and it is fair to say that where God the Son is, Jesus is, and where one acts, the other acts as well. The Son is simple, like the Father: one in being, action, will, thought and quality. The Son is ubiquitious. Yet the human body, united with Him, is complex and local.

This thread will quickly get past my ability to deal with the subject matter.

The problem is that Jesus said, “this is My body.” The problem is that He is now in heaven. As a body is localized, it cannot be in two places at once, let alone ten thousand or more. A body is localized in one place, and one place alone. And yes, I have heard of bilocation. Perhaps an explanation for that can be thrown in here as well.

So please explain how, in Catholic theology, His body is simultaneously in heaven and in ten thousand (or more) places. Please cite sources. Thank you.

Jesus said to St. Peter “Get behind me Satan! Peter asked, why do you call me Satan?” Jesus replied “Because you think like humans do”

Thus my point here. You are trying to think of Jesus’s body as a human mind would and want “proof” or “facts” in a soild form provided to you, which can’t be. God can do anything and trust me his world is alot different than ours in our human form.

 

[JimG]

It is true that Jesus has but one body. Neither his body nor his spirit is multiplied in the Eucharist. The Jesus that you receive is not separate or distinct from the Jesus that anyone else receives at any time or place. The appearances are multiplied but not the substance of Jesus.

Appearances include everything that is perceptible to the senses including time and location.

The closest analogy that I can give would be to think of a perfect hologram or which transcends time and space or a wormhole which connects any point in spacetime to any other.

The appearances are multipled. Jesus is never multiplied.

 

[REESE_HOWELL]

after this teaching Jesus lost many disciples because they said it was to hard remeber road to hell is wide and easy path to heaven is narrow and hard