A hypothetical in regards to salvation

[NotTooSmart]

I am posing this hypothetical in order to understand to the best of my ability what is the Catholic answer to the question “What must I do to be saved”. I find in my mind hypotheticals can help me drill into answers.

As usual I am not here to debate, just learn and evaluate. I might ask silly questions if I am not getting something though.

Let us suppose there is a man totally uneducated in the things of God alone in a hotel room who stumbles upon a Bible (we will call it a Catholic Bible). He begins to read the gospel concerning Jesus Christ and is somehow touched by the account of his life, death, and subsequent resurrection.

He gets to the part where he reads about the thief on the cross asking Jesus to remember Him when He comes into His kingdom and he also is moved to ask Jesus the same for himself. He remembers much of the wrong that he has done in his life and ask Jesus to forgive him of what he has done wrong.

That night he dies of a heart attack. He is not baptized and has not done any particularly good thing since that prayer. Neither has he done any particularly sinful thing.

*Assuming he is sincere in his prayer.
*

My question is what is the eternal destination of this man. Please ignore purgatory for now because I know those who are in purgatory per Catholicism eventually go to heaven.

Is his eternal destiny heaven or is he still without the Lord. If his eternal destiny is hell, please indicate what else this man should have done in order for him to be with Christ before he died.

Oh one more possibility. If your answer is “I don’t know” please tell me what information I may have omitted from this hypothetical. Perhaps I am being ambiguous here.and I should clarify my hypothetical.

 

[CWBetts]

I am posing this hypothetical in order to understand to the best of my ability what is the Catholic answer to the question “What must I do to be saved”. I find in my mind hypotheticals can help me drill into answers.

As usual I am not here to debate, just learn and evaluate. I might ask silly questions if I am not getting something though.

Let us suppose there is a man totally uneducated in the things of God alone in a hotel room who stumbles upon a Bible (we will call it a Catholic Bible). He begins to read the gospel concerning Jesus Christ and is somehow touched by the account of his life, death, and subsequent resurrection.

He gets to the part where he reads about the thief on the cross asking Jesus to remember Him when He comes into His kingdom and he also is moved to ask Jesus the same for himself. He remembers much of the wrong that he has done in his life and ask Jesus to forgive him of what he has done wrong.

That night he dies of a heart attack. He is not baptized and has not done any particularly good thing since that prayer. Neither has he done any particularly sinful thing.

*Assuming he is sincere in his prayer.
*

My question is what is the eternal destination of this man. Please ignore purgatory for now because I know those who are in purgatory per Catholicism eventually go to heaven.

Is his eternal destiny heaven or is he still without the Lord. If his eternal destiny is hell, please indicate what else this man should have done in order for him to be with Christ before he died.

Oh one more possibility. If your answer is “I don’t know” please tell me what information I may have omitted from this hypothetical. Perhaps I am being ambiguous here.and I should clarify my hypothetical.

Are we also assuming that he understood the nature of baptism?

 

[Lapey]

I am posing this hypothetical in order to understand to the best of my ability what is the Catholic answer to the question “What must I do to be saved”. I find in my mind hypotheticals can help me drill into answers.

As usual I am not here to debate, just learn and evaluate. I might ask silly questions if I am not getting something though.

Let us suppose there is a man totally uneducated in the things of God alone in a hotel room who stumbles upon a Bible (we will call it a Catholic Bible). He begins to read the gospel concerning Jesus Christ and is somehow touched by the account of his life, death, and subsequent resurrection.

He gets to the part where he reads about the thief on the cross asking Jesus to remember Him when He comes into His kingdom and he also is moved to ask Jesus the same for himself. He remembers much of the wrong that he has done in his life and ask Jesus to forgive him of what he has done wrong.

That night he dies of a heart attack. He is not baptized and has not done any particularly good thing since that prayer. Neither has he done any particularly sinful thing.

*Assuming he is sincere in his prayer.
*

My question is what is the eternal destination of this man. Please ignore purgatory for now because I know those who are in purgatory per Catholicism eventually go to heaven.

Is his eternal destiny heaven or is he still without the Lord. If his eternal destiny is hell, please indicate what else this man should have done in order for him to be with Christ before he died.

Oh one more possibility. If your answer is “I don’t know” please tell me what information I may have omitted from this hypothetical. Perhaps I am being ambiguous here.and I should clarify my hypothetical.

I’ll bite, in the situation you describe, this person, if sincere, has accepted the good news and therefore Christ. He is saved. This is referred to baptism in intent, not sure of the exact term. But he has accepted Christ at that point and is righteous.

Sounds strange coming from a Roman Catholic, but its all the same in this instance.

Remember that Paul repeatedly stated that Abraham was a righteous man because of his faith, not his works in the law.

Works are a result of true faith, not the precursor to salvation.

 

[NotTooSmart]

Are we also assuming that he understood the nature of baptism?

Hmm.

Let us say in this example he did not.

But it also would be reasonable to assume that had he lived, eventually he would have come to the point where he would have understood baptism. And of course at that time he would have been baptized.

And let us assume this is a normal baptism by a normal (not cultish) group of Christians.

 

[CWBetts]

God’s mercy is infinite, and under normal circumstnaces God must cleanse us in the waters of Baptism. If he just found the Bible, and fully intended on finding a priest to learn more, then I believe it would be reasonable to assume that he would be among the saved (Baptism of desire). But, this is not in revealed truth and is not dogmatic, but merely a topic of speculation, and this is merely the opinion of a Catholic layperson who is still new to the faith.

 

[NotTooSmart]

God’s mercy is infinite, and under normal circumstnaces God must cleanse us in the waters of Baptism. If he just found the Bible, and fully intended on finding a priest to learn more, then I believe it would be reasonable to assume that he would be among the saved (Baptism of desire). But, this is not in revealed truth and is not dogmatic, but merely a topic of speculation, and this is merely the opinion of a Catholic layperson who is still new to the faith.

Thank you for your answer.

 

[dianaiad]

I am posing this hypothetical in order to understand to the best of my ability what is the Catholic answer to the question “What must I do to be saved”. I find in my mind hypotheticals can help me drill into answers.

As usual I am not here to debate, just learn and evaluate. I might ask silly questions if I am not getting something though.

Let us suppose there is a man totally uneducated in the things of God alone in a hotel room who stumbles upon a Bible (we will call it a Catholic Bible). He begins to read the gospel concerning Jesus Christ and is somehow touched by the account of his life, death, and subsequent resurrection.

He gets to the part where he reads about the thief on the cross asking Jesus to remember Him when He comes into His kingdom and he also is moved to ask Jesus the same for himself. He remembers much of the wrong that he has done in his life and ask Jesus to forgive him of what he has done wrong.

That night he dies of a heart attack. He is not baptized and has not done any particularly good thing since that prayer. Neither has he done any particularly sinful thing.

*Assuming he is sincere in his prayer.
*

My question is what is the eternal destination of this man. Please ignore purgatory for now because I know those who are in purgatory per Catholicism eventually go to heaven.

Is his eternal destiny heaven or is he still without the Lord. If his eternal destiny is hell, please indicate what else this man should have done in order for him to be with Christ before he died.

Oh one more possibility. If your answer is “I don’t know” please tell me what information I may have omitted from this hypothetical. Perhaps I am being ambiguous here.and I should clarify my hypothetical.

I’m sorry. I deeply apologize for what I am about to say, since your personal statement here is lovely, and your question is a good one. I have no intention of messing with it.

I only have one thing to say, because it’s 'fingernails on the chalkboard" time.

“hypothetical” is not a noun.

There. I feel better.

 

[CWBetts]

I’m sorry. I deeply apologize for what I am about to say, since your personal statement here is lovely, and your question is a good one. I have no intention of messing with it.

I only have one thing to say, because it’s 'fingernails on the chalkboard" time.

“hypothetical” is not a noun.

There. I feel better.

Though normally an adjective, it can be used as a noun

 

[dianaiad]

Though normally an adjective, it can be used as a noun

Now, ordinarily I am a descriptive, not a prescriptive, linguist. That is, I simply go with the flow and let words do what they do, and let the people who use them tell me what they mean, rather than dictate to the ignorant what they are supposed to mean.

However, every once in awhile I stumble over something that is, y’know, just TOO MUCH. “Hypothetical” used as a noun is that, for me.

I blame OJ for that.

Or worse, the lawyers.

 

[CWBetts]

Now, ordinarily I am a descriptive, not a prescriptive, linguist. That is, I simply go with the flow and let words do what they do, and let the people who use them tell me what they mean, rather than dictate to the ignorant what they are supposed to mean.

However, every once in awhile I stumble over something that is, y’know, just TOO MUCH. “Hypothetical” used as a noun is that, for me.

I blame OJ for that.

Or worse, the lawyers.

Hay don’t blame me! Complain to dictionary.com!

 

[NotTooSmart]

Hay don’t blame me! Complain to dictionary.com!

I use Mirriam-webster myself because dictionnary.com is confusing.

• Main Entry: hy·po·thet·i·cal
  * Pronunciation: \ˌhī-pə-ˈthe-ti-kəl
  * Function: adjective
  * Date: 1588

: being or involving a hypothesis : conjectural

— hypothetical noun

— hy·po·thet·i·cal·ly -ti-k(ə-)lē\ adverb

So there is a noun usage of the word per the dictionary.

 

[dianaiad]

Hay don’t blame me! Complain to dictionary.com!

I know. I’m a curmudgeon swimming hopelessly against the current, here.

 

[1ke]

If your answer is “I don’t know” please tell me what information I may have omitted from this hypothetical. Perhaps I am being ambiguous here.and I should clarify my hypothetical.

The answer is “we cannot know.”

God is just **and **God is merciful. We know the things he commands us to do, and we know the *ordinary *way in which he forgives sin (both regeneration and remission of Original Sin and actual sin in Baptism) and gives Grace (all the Sacraments). But God can work extraordinarily– outside the normative ways he established.

No one here can give you the answer you are looking for, which is “yes” or “no.” We can never know the day or the hour-- none of us. That’s why we hear in the Gospel to be prepared for the thief in the night. To always have oil in our lamp like the wise virgins.

If we have sanctifying grace in our souls we will go to Heaven (possibly via Purgatory) and if we do not we will go to Hell. Only *God *knows the state of our soul.

It doesn’t matter how many details and how many hypothetical situations you propose, the answer will be the same.

 

[NotTooSmart]

The answer is “we cannot know.”

God is just **and **God is merciful. We know the things he commands us to do, and we know the *ordinary *way in which he forgives sin (both regeneration and remission of Original Sin and actual sin in Baptism) and gives Grace (all the Sacraments). But God can work extraordinarily– outside the normative ways he established.

No one here can give you the answer you are looking for, which is “yes” or “no.” We can never know the day or the hour-- none of us. That’s why we hear in the Gospel to be prepared for the thief in the night. To always have oil in our lamp like the wise virgins.

If we have sanctifying grace in our souls we will go to Heaven (possibly via Purgatory) and if we do not we will go to Hell. Only *God *knows the state of our soul.

It doesn’t matter how many details and how many hypothetical situations you propose, the answer will be the same.

OK.

I am struggling with finding the right words to ask my follow-on question.

But I guess the question is:

“Why is it ‘we can not know’”?

Is it because we really do not know the sincerity of the guys heart in the hypothetical, that only God knows that? If so, I said to assume that he was perfectly sincere. Even though this is really knowledge that only God has 100% accurately.

Or is there another reason that ‘we can not know’?

 

[1ke]

OK.

I am struggling with finding the right words to ask my follow-on question.

But I guess the question is:

“Why is it ‘we can not know’”?

Catholics would say we can have moral certainty as opposed to absolute certainty.

Is it because we really do not know the sincerity of the guys heart in the hypothetical, that only God knows that? If so, I said to assume that he was perfectly sincere. Even though this is really knowledge that only God has 100% accurately.

Or is there another reason that ‘we can not know’?

As I said, we know what God has told us regarding the ordinary means of grace and forgiveness. We know he **can **act in extraordinary ways. We do not know whether or not he does.

So, we cannot know.

 

[1ke]

What we can say is that such a person is not excluded from the *possibility *of salvation, when *through no fault of their own *they do not know Christ or his Church.

 

[NotTooSmart]

As I said, we know what God has told us regarding the ordinary means of grace and forgiveness. We know he **can **act in extraordinary ways. We do not know whether or not he does.

So, we cannot know.

So let me make sure I understand.

The man was alone in his hotel room (I think I said hotel) with just a Bible reading about Jesus Christ. He sincerely responds to the message about Christ in the same way as other folks he was reading about responds to the message of Jesus Christ.

Now you are telling me this may not have been enough for him to do prior to the point of his death a couple of hours later to have eternal life with Jesus Christ?

If that is the case, then what should he have done?

 

[1ke]

So let me make sure I understand.

The man was alone in his hotel room (I think I said hotel) with just a Bible reading about Jesus Christ. He sincerely responds to the message about Christ in the same way as other folks he was reading about responds to the message of Jesus Christ.

Now you are telling me this may not have been enough for him to do prior to the point of his death a couple of hours later to have eternal life with Jesus Christ?

If that is the case, then what should he have done?

As I said, we can have moral certainty, not absolute certainty.

 

[NotTooSmart]

As I said, we can have moral certainty, not absolute certainty.

So how would Catholics answer the question “What must I do to be saved”?

 

[NotTooSmart]

As I said, we can have moral certainty, not absolute certainty.

Here is my problem right now.

First of all, from my experience, all branches of Christianity seem to have their own distinct dialects of the language “Christianese”… And yes, we in Assemblies of God have our dialect of “Christianese” too.

That is, that they use words, terms, and phrases that make perfect sense to those on the inside, but that can not be understood by those on the outside. Or worse, get said in one dialect of Christianese, get translated by another dialect of Christianese, and get misunderstood.

Now maybe the problem here is that I am NotTooSmart, but the answers I have gotten to this question thus far seem to be in “Catholicese” and therefore make little to no sense to me.

Now, what I am tempted to do, to be quite honest, is to interpret these answers through my dialect of Christianese. Were I to do this, I would conclude that the Catholic answer to the question “What must I do to be saved” is something like “Believe in Jesus, get baptized, take communion, do not commit any mortal sins, be a good person. Then if God is in a good mood, you might make heaven. But we don’t know for sure.”

But for now anyway, I want to resist this temptation.

So I will ask again.

If you do not know whether this person is saved under my hypothetical, I can think of only two reasons why not. If there are other reasons that I have not thought of, please list them in a manner that I can understand.

The first reason of course is that you do not know the heart of the individual in question. This I understand. So to repeat myself once more, let us assume that that the heart attitude of the individual in question is not an issue.

The second reason that I can think of is that this individual in question has not met the requirements to receive eternal life through Jesus Christ. In other words he has not done enough. If that is the case, then please tell me what else he has to do in order to receive the gift of eternal life.