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Aquinas11
Guest
So he consciously & knowingly rejected Church teaching. If that’s not a sin then nothing is.
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Dorothy
Guest
Thank you Father for your response. I totally agree.
It is true that hypotheticals such as that serve no purpose…except to cause confusion.
It is true that hypotheticals such as that serve no purpose…except to cause confusion.
So which is it?
Either he knows God’s law, or he doesn’t.
He cannot be mistaken and deliberate at the same time.
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Ecclesiastes
Guest
Don’t Protestants and Jews also reject Church teachings? Does not the Church say that they can be saved? In other words, if the Church’s teaching are absolute should not the Church have to conclude that all Jews and Protestants are going to be condemned? On the other hand, If the Church’s teachings are not absolute and do not apply to everyone, why should we assume that this guy committed a mortal sin given he truly believed wholeheartedly that watching Mass through the Internet was acceptable to God. It sounds like a contradiction in teachings that I would like to clear up.
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Ecclesiastes
Guest
Again, I’m implying he knew the Church’s teaching and deliberately went against it, but mistaking believed that watching Mass through the Internet was perfectly acceptable to God. And again, are not Jews and Protestants methods of worship, although they differ from our Church, assumed to be adequate if the Church says that they can be saved?
Are you implying that the laws as provided by God’s church are not in full agreement with God’s will?
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Ecclesiastes
Guest
I’m just wondering why the teachings of the Church, if they are God’s will, are not applied to Protestants and Jews? Yes, God may be ecstatic over those that follow the Church’s teachings but this does not necessarily mean that the practices of Jews and Protestants are not also acceptable to God. If this is correct, the Church’s teachings must not be absolute in that they are not applied universally.
My personally believe, which may or may not be correct, is that God searches the heart in terms of love for Him as well as an individuals overall righteousness, and that God’s final judgment far surpasses the Church’s teaching. Not that the Church’s teachings are in any way trivial or should be overlooked, but that they are not absolute.
My personally believe, which may or may not be correct, is that God searches the heart in terms of love for Him as well as an individuals overall righteousness, and that God’s final judgment far surpasses the Church’s teaching. Not that the Church’s teachings are in any way trivial or should be overlooked, but that they are not absolute.
They do.
But it is not possible to be in mortal sin if one does not know of the law or believe it applies.
Your hypothetical example was one of a Catholic that knows well the law and turns from it anyway.
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Aquinas11
Guest
Ok now you’re shifting the conversation from the hypothetical.
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Latin
Guest
Three Conditions (1857)
A mortal sin requires three conditions:- The object is grave matter
- It is committed with full knowledge
- It is done with deliberate consent
Venial Sins (1862)
A person commits a venial sin in two cases:- When he does not observe God’s law in a less serious matter
- When he did not have full knowledge or give full consent in a grave matter
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As we see above, technically and in the heart the act doesn’t even qualified to be a venial sin.
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God bless
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Ecclesiastes
Guest
Am I not allowed to use Jews and Protestants as an example of why Catholic teaching do not seem to be absolute? The point is that if these teachings are not applied universally, why should they apply to the guy in my example given his firm belief that he did fulfill God’s will and never intentionally rejected Him?
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WingsOfEagles
Guest
This scenario while possible is just highly unlikely. Totally without sin except for this one thing? Skips Mass on purpose, but chooses to log on at home and watch after years of perfect behavior? Absolutley unrepentent for the whole 24 hrs before his death?
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WingsOfEagles
Guest
This is why we are told that we can’t really know how God will judge someone’s soul. In order for mortal sin to occur, one has to fully comprehend that mortal sin has occurred. It might be arguable this man just really doesn’t understand if he “believed he fulfilled God’s will and never intentionally rejected Him”.
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Gorgias
Guest
But, in essence, isn’t what you’re saying, “the Church’s teachings don’t matter, since God will decide differently from what the Church teaches”? That’s quite a novel – and daring! – approach, don’t you think? I mean, if you want to deal in hypotheticals, what if you get to the pearly gates and hear, “no, I really did mean what I taught the Church”?
A mistake can’t be a mortal sin, now, can it?
No. Salvation for non-Catholics does not come by virtue of their expression of their religious tradition. It comes through God’s mercy, despite their adherence to a different tradition.
(And, it’s two distinct cases when we’re talking about Catholics who go to other traditions as opposed to folks who were never Catholic to begin with.)
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berniemcken
Guest
If he was truly righteous and had lived for the right reasons, deciding with full knowledge to miss mass wouldn’t have been an option. He must have had many years of venial sins and sins of ommision. If you love God, you obey Him and His church. When you sin mortally, you choose something other than God. You choose hell.
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pulchraesamicamea
Guest
Was he sick? Like he had to lie down at home and intentionally miss mass?
That is what I had to do, but I had confession/anointing of the sick when I became a wheelchair user.
I am unable to attend mass due to extensive seizures and only attend mass once a month. I cannot go outside and when I go to mass I go for confession because I know that I may be in the state of mortal sin.
It depends if he received Anointing of the Sick before he died, though- if I die of my disease (which there is a large chance that I will) the priest will be there to bless me before I die. If he receives this sacrament, he will not be in a state of mortal sin.
That is what I had to do, but I had confession/anointing of the sick when I became a wheelchair user.
I am unable to attend mass due to extensive seizures and only attend mass once a month. I cannot go outside and when I go to mass I go for confession because I know that I may be in the state of mortal sin.
It depends if he received Anointing of the Sick before he died, though- if I die of my disease (which there is a large chance that I will) the priest will be there to bless me before I die. If he receives this sacrament, he will not be in a state of mortal sin.
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poche
Guest
One mortal sin is sufficient to send someone to Hell. It is not God who condemns him but by the malice of that one sin that would condemn him.
however there is anecdotal evidence that God would give people who live lives of virtue the grace of the opportunity for contrition before they die.
however there is anecdotal evidence that God would give people who live lives of virtue the grace of the opportunity for contrition before they die.
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Ecclesiastes
Guest
No, I truly feel that the Church’s teaching of paramount importance, but I just do not personally believe that they are absolute and are to be applied universally. Simply believing that we are following all the teachings of the Church may not mean a thing if they are ingrained in our hearts, which is where God judges us. I dare to say that none of us follow the Church’s teachings as fully and with the true understanding of them the way we ideally ought. In other words, simply following rules put forth by the Church, without making them a part of us may not suffice in the eyes of God. For example, is a person who is merely present at church each and every day of obligation mean a thing in the eyes of God if the person does not ingrain a higher-ordered desire to love and serve God within his or her heart? In the eyes of God, is such a person more worthy of salvation more than a person who does not follow all the Church’s rules but ingrains in his or her heart the true desire to love and serve God? Is this not why Christ complained that the Pharisees and Scribes clean the outside of the cup with little concern for cleansing what is inside of the cup? For example, we may believe that simply outwardly observing the rules set forth by the Church is sufficient for our salvation, but in reality have never ingrained the true, higher-ordered desire to love God in our hearts. As for my scenario, might this guy has ingrained this love for God much more completely within his heart than a person who is actually physically present at church? Is it possible that this guy fulfilled his duty much more completely in watching the Mass through the Internet?
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Gorgias
Guest
Sure. I’m good with that. However, that’s a completely different thought than the non-Catholic (or non-Christian) who honestly follows God to the best of their ability in their situation? Those two scenarios (lukewarm Catholic / fervent non-Christian) are apples and oranges!
That depends on the person, wouldn’t you say? And, wouldn’t you take their presence as a form of expression of love of God? Moreover, what exactly is a “higher-order desire to love and serve God” – and why would we presume that everyone is capable of it?
It’s a non sequitur, don’t you think? You’re positing a Catholic who loves God so much, that he blows off what God asks for. That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, does it?
No, because that duty requires physical presence at the Mass. It requires him to be a participant at the sacrifice of the Mass, and not just an audience member / observer of some other Mass. It’s almost like asking whether a football player – who loves the game and is completely able to play – fulfills his obligation to his team by sitting on the couch and watching them play!
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Vico
Guest
You have said it, that the person knew that it was unacceptable to the Church but “he truly believed that watching the Mass over the Internet was acceptable to God”, which means belief that the Church is in error on matters of faith and morals. It is grave matter and if done willingly with sufficient reflection to be a personal choice, then it was mortal sin.
Catechism
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