A Impudent Theology? : Stigma, the Brain and Catholicsm

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The spirit and the flesh are at war, no? If the brain disease, or any disabling disease is a flesh illness, then why all the stigma associated with, even amongst Catholics. Or is the arrow of blame aimed in the wrong direction?
 
I’m not sure what you are trying to say.

Are you saying people who have diseases are looked down upon?
 
Especially so for brain diseases. Schizophrenics, for example, can expect to never be married once their illness onsets. Recovery is irrelevant. People with that disorder are doped up and sent to community institutions. 1/2 way houses, adult homes, etc.
 
Hey! not always true! Here’s a story.
I went to a Catholic middle school and one of the kids suffered from ALDS. (I have no clue how to spell the full name; it is 40+ letters long.) ALDS is a disease that eats away at the brain. Most people who suffer from it are bedridden. He is legally blind, wears a leg brace on his right leg, has some kind of partial paralysis in his right arm, and has social and learning hinderances (Battling the disease caused him to lose most of his 2nd and 3rd grade years.) He was active at our school in show choir and football. He spent a lot of time on homework. He was the “ball boy” on our football team in 6th grade. A couple of us would always help him out, and he had a ton of fun. At our one night game we arranged with our sister middle school (the other area Catholic middle school who we were playing that night) to let him score a touchdown. There was no contact and the other team let him into the endzone. It, unfortunately, didn’t count and we lost the game 8-0. Anyway, at halftime we presented him with a ball we all had signed. We had him and his family come out to center field and the ball was presented to him. It was amazing to watch. There was an incredibly strong sense of community regarding Daniel (the kid who suffers from ALDS). One day in eight grade, a new kid made the mistake of picking on him. No one would talk to him until he stopped and apologized (a little harsh, I know, but after he apologized we started talking to him again.) When his helper from the state school for the blind was on maternity leave we took turns helping him to his classes. We all helped and he was a great friend to all of us. Isnt this a story worth celebrating?

:extrahappy::dancing::clapping::yup:

Godspeed,
Teenage Philosopher
 
The spirit and the flesh are at war, no? If the brain disease, or any disabling disease is a flesh illness, then why all the stigma associated with, even amongst Catholics. Or is the arrow of blame aimed in the wrong direction?
don’t understand the question
what makes you think CAtholics attach some kind of stigma to anyone afflicted with an illness? there is certainly nothing in Catholic teaching that would justify such an attitude.
Especially so for brain diseases. Schizophrenics, for example, can expect to never be married once their illness onsets. Recovery is irrelevant. People with that disorder are doped up and sent to community institutions. 1/2 way houses, adult homes, etc.
by “brain disease” do you mean mental illness or personality disorder? Why do you blame societal means of treating such illnesses on Catholics specifically? Why is it wrong to send an ill person to a place where they will be treated?
 
Thank You for a heart warming story, teenage philosopher!
It sounds as though this young person Daniel was helped by the ministry of the church.
Tell me also, if you are as bold and skilled a teenage philosopher as your excellent communication makes apparent: do you recognize any diseases that do cause stigma amongst either your Catholic classmates or others?

:confused:
 
don’t understand the question
what makes you think CAtholics attach some kind of stigma to anyone afflicted with an illness? there is certainly nothing in Catholic teaching that would justify such an attitude.

by “brain disease” do you mean mental illness or personality disorder? Why do you blame societal means of treating such illnesses on Catholics specifically? Why is it wrong to send an ill person to a place where they will be treated?
No, nothing in the teachings of Christ would even lend remote legitimacy to stigmatizing anyone, save perhaps someone who publicly teaches sin and therefore gets excommunicated as such from the Church.

To answer your other questions, yes, I do mean mental illness or personality disorder, but I do not blame ‘societal’ means of treating such illnesses on we Catholics in particular: however, in this region of the NY state, treatment is dominated by a philosophy of primarily atheist Freudian-ism, and likewise “hollow organism” behaviorism. Thus, to send someone to ’ a place where they will be treated’ is tantamount to socially sanctioned persecution of their beliefs (should that person be Catholic).

In asking whether or not the theology is impudent, I was using irony and advertising to get the attention of social justice experts such as can be found in such a venue as this website. Mine was a challenge to develop a Catholic model of treatment that rivals the ridiculously persecuting-, ostracizing-, and coercive-type methods of treatment that have grown and taken root in the mental health clinics of myth or reality in NY. If we cannot, then we are stigmatizing our mentally ill, who are told routinely that m-sturb-tion, out of wedlock sex and other forms of immoral behavior are OK because you have a mental illness and no one will want to enter into ‘a long term sexual relationship’ with you–guilty in that we have not challenged psychiatry on this point, guilty in that we then don;t want to shake hands with these folks because they are, in a most twisted, ironic sense, our problem children with a dispensation to sin that only puts them further in harm and makes them second class members of their parish, though much heralded as active and important. It is making their private suffering a thing of encouragement to others. An unnecessary, additional cross hoisted on them without conscious knowledge on either their or our part. We too quickly defer to so-called psychological experts and entrust them with our people. Common sense tells me we all should eschew anything so simple and quick a fix as “supportive psychotherapy”.
Finally, there was several years back an article in the New Yorker Magazine on how the scandal on the American Church was caused by relegating and deferring to psychiatry the personal problems of the clergy, which could have been handled by frank and open discussion in parishes as to the nature of temptation and the need for people to begin again covering themselves up in mass.

We have hired help to clean the house, and it has been set fire by the help. We all ought to pray that psychiatry has good intentions toward the church, because it is a social force growing in power as we speak, and one not always congenial to our morality and goals of life in the spirit.

When it is congenial in the case of specific doctors, their price is almost always prohibitive of the average mentally ill person. The hard core schizophrenics, who “don’t matter anyhow” are on backwards in institutions in the community or in the large centers.
 
Mine was a challenge to develop a Catholic model of treatment that rivals the ridiculously persecuting-, ostracizing-, and coercive-type methods of treatment that have grown and taken root in the mental health clinics of myth or reality in NY.

I am a psychiatrtist and I can only say that this is not the case in California. Where there is no persecuting, ostracizing or coercive methods used to treat people of their mental disorder.

If we cannot, then we are stigmatizing our mentally ill, who are told routinely that m-sturb-tion, out of wedlock sex and other forms of immoral behavior are OK because you have a mental illness and no one will want to enter into ‘a long term sexual relationship’ with you

Wow, I don’t know of any Psychiatrist that has advocated this. By the way if you are referring to why are not more Schizophrenics married or in a long term relationship it has in large part to due with the nature of the the disease. A large symptom of a subset of Schizophrenics is social withdrawl and cognitive decline. At each psychotic break they slip further from reality and it is harder and harder to get them back to where they were before. Consequently, they become lower functioning gradually overtime. This manifest itself in increasing social withdrawl and increasing difficulty in supporting onself. But no one ever limits any relationship with a Schizophrenic, unless the patient is getting taken advantage of, like getting raped or exploited, because it is actually benefical to the patient to continue to be interactive with others – and this includes developing romantic interests if they are able.

–guilty in that we have not challenged psychiatry on this point, guilty in that we then don;t want to shake hands with these folks because they are, in a most twisted, ironic sense, our problem children with a dispensation to sin that only puts them further in harm and makes them second class members of their parish, though much heralded as active and important.

I think this has more to do with the fact that people don’t understand the actual nature of the disease and what to do about. If you have every seen the “psychotic stare” or flat affect of a schizophrenic it can be quite unnerving if you have not experienced it before. This does not condone the behavior of indivuals who shun or treat these people like second class citizens because they are not. Also, I truly don’t think that most people are reflecting upon the patients “dispensation to sin” as the reason they do not interact with them. I think it has more to do with the fact that they are unconfortable around these people and therefore choose to avoid.

It is making their private suffering a thing of encouragement to others. An unnecessary, additional cross hoisted on them without conscious knowledge on either their or our part.

These people are not brain dead or unconscious and when properly treated have full capacity to understand reality and what is going on around them. They can make the choice about what they want to remain private and what to be made public. That should be and is their right. In addition, I agree with you that it is quite unchristian to burden someone with another cross to bear. But I fail to see how this acts as an encouragement to others. If anything it should move them to compassion and greater servitude to their fellow man.

We too quickly defer to so-called psychological experts and entrust them with our people. Common sense tells me we all should eschew anything so simple and quick a fix as “supportive psychotherapy”.

You are right. You should not just defer anynone to anything to quickly. However, these “so-called” experts likely have a much greater experience with the problems that are likely to arise than the average layman. Would you really deny this person their best chance of treatment based upon what is obviously becoming your misunderstanding of what mental health treatment actually is? For instance, “supportive psychotherapy,” is not considered a quick fix, but more of adjunct therapy. With most mental illness there is no cure. What you hope to do with therapy — all therapy — is to reduce the symptom load, lengthen the time between and shorten the duration of depressive, manic or psychotic episodes. There simply are no quick fixes but only multiple avenues one should try in order to best serve the patient. Supportive psychotherapy is not considered a quick fix but one of those avenues.

Finally, there was several years back an article in the New Yorker Magazine on how the scandal on the American Church was caused by relegating and deferring to psychiatry the personal problems of the clergy, which could have been handled by frank and open discussion in parishes as to the nature of temptation and the need for people to begin again covering themselves up in mass.

What, this doesn’t not make any sense. People have self control and if they are truely mentally ill they should seek expert help. Desires and actually acting on those desires can, but not always, help distinguish a disorder from a moral problem. Besides, who is openly going to admit to a problem to the entire parish, when, frankly, this is something that is best handled in an environment of trust and confidentiality. Especially when just a paragraph before you are saying that by doing this you create another cross for someone to bear and not only that but makes them relegated to something of a second class worshiper. Do you really expect honest dialogue to manifest itself in an environment like that?
 
Continued…

We have hired help to clean the house, and it has been set fire by the help. We all ought to pray that psychiatry has good intentions toward the church, because it is a social force growing in power as we speak, and one not always congenial to our morality and goals of life in the spirit.

I really don’t know what you are basing this on other than opinion. But I for one appreciate all the prayers anyone decides to send my way.

When it is congenial in the case of specific doctors, their price is almost always prohibitive of the average mentally ill person. The hard core schizophrenics, who “don’t matter anyhow” are on backwards in institutions in the community or in the large centers.

This is not entirely true. At least in California there are many clinics designed especially for the indigent or underfunded mentally ill patient. In fact, the days of large scale institutions are largely over where most of these peoples rights and freedoms are handled as they live in the community. The only Schizophrenics who are in the large scale centers are the ones who have repeated been shown to be refractory to treatment, even to Clozaril, the most effective but largely dangerous antipsychotic drug, and are consquently a continued danger to not only themselves but others. They are not locked up in some cage, dungeon or “backwards institution,” but actually are cared for by the facilty in the best manner that is able to be undertaken. These facilities have no resemblance to One Flew over the Cuckoo’s Nest which, alas, still seems to be a misconception.
 
… in California. Where there is no persecuting, ostracizing or coercive methods used to treat people of their mental disorder.
Most psychologists and psychiatrists in NY “would certainly hope that [isn’t] true now.”
Wow, I don’t know of any Psychiatrist that has advocated this. By the way if you are referring to why are not more Schizophrenics married or in a long term relationship it has in large part to due with the nature of the the disease. A large symptom of a subset of Schizophrenics is social withdrawal and cognitive decline. At each psychotic break they slip further from reality and it is harder and harder to get them back to where they were before. Consequently, they become lower functioning gradually overtime. This manifest itself in increasing social withdrawal and increasing difficulty in supporting oneself.
DJK–**You simply must read the Vermont Study of Courtney Harding. We really can’t have much of a discussion on this subject while one or the other of us yet remains in relatively unlit shadows. **
I think this has more to do with the fact that people don’t understand the actual nature of the disease and what to do about. If you have every seen the “psychotic stare” or flat affect of a schizophrenic it can be quite unnerving if you have not experienced it before. This does not condone the behavior of indivuals who shun or treat these people like second class citizens because they are not. Also, I truly don’t think that most people are reflecting upon the patients “dispensation to sin” as the reason they do not interact with them. I think it has more to do with the fact that they are unconfortable around these people and therefore choose to avoid.
Much truth in what you say here. Obscure however remains what you mean by “if you have not experienced it [psychotic stare] before” Do you mean that one must know psychosis endo-psychically or epistemologically before one can understand it commonly enough to be innervated by it to one’s core of sympathy and compassion? or do you simply mean that I, somehow, can’t appreciate those stares because of some other reason? What is the essential difference between you and I with respect to responses to these flat psychotic stares qua our common humanity? Perhaps you are apologizing for psychiatry. I’m OK with any of those possibilities. I simply don’t agree that we are fundamentally any different.
But I fail to see how this acts as an encouragement to others. If anything it should move them to compassion and greater servitude to their fellow man.
At first perusal of your response I missed this: That’s exactly what I said! They are kept in a state of deprivation because the compassion shown to them comes in the form of “go see a doctor.” That’s the servitude to their “fellow man”. It is psychiatry who is telling these people ‘you don’t have the expertise to help’. And they believe it! Why? 'Cause it comes from the doctors themselves and from everyone else profiting economically from the socially defined disability of the person with the lived experience of schizophrenia.

Now of course I acknowledge people may get the wrong message. But their seems little excuse for promoting apathy towards schizophrenia. (Probably a vestigial social response of medicine from the pre- or nascent days of psycho pharmacology art).
However, these “so-called” experts likely have a much greater experience with the problems that are likely to arise than the average layman. Would you really deny this person their best chance of treatment based upon what is obviously becoming your misunderstanding of what mental health treatment actually is?
What is my misunderstanding of treatment? I’ve worked in the field as a peer specialist for six years and worked side by side with researchers for 18 month as a co learner in a Community Based Participatory Research study the first of its kind in the United States, working at the study design and curriculum approximately 10 hours per week. I think treatment should be to restore to those whom have lost it what God intends for each of us: a life characterized by wholeness of body mind and spirit. Anythings less is unseemly. Frankly, I believe that psychiatrists could deliver peer services but only in the extremely rare circumstance that they can check their degrees and expertise at the door of their own(ed) clinics. Peers are not necessarily against psychiatry, per se, they are against what it represents in society and the despair and resignation it instills in people, especially in those with disorders. I know things are different in California, especially with regard to peers. Still–this is not the case in all states. As for how much clinics cost in comparison to peer services, “I’ve got my spine I’ve got my orange crush.”
 
The spirit and the flesh are at war, no?
Your opening statement is fundamentally incompatible with catholicism. It’s heresy, in fact (though I can never remember the names). The idea that the flesh is evil is utterly wrong.

We humans are a union of body and soul. BOTH aspect of ourselves are created by God. Our problem is the fatal flaw of Original Sin, which afflicts both our body and soul.

I know literally nothing about mental illness, so I defer to others, but you’ll never get to a sound idea if you don’t correct your starting place.
 
Your opening statement is fundamentally incompatible with catholicism. It’s heresy, in fact (though I can never remember the names). The idea that the flesh is evil is utterly wrong.

We humans are a union of body and soul. BOTH aspect of ourselves are created by God. Our problem is the fatal flaw of Original Sin, which afflicts both our body and soul.

I know literally nothing about mental illness, so I defer to others, but you’ll never get to a sound idea if you don’t correct your starting place.
Perhaps this incompatibility you opine is the reason for a failure to develop a truly Catholic method of treating illness that is simultaneously acceptable to the public. My understanding from these threads (and I have started a few) is that we must defer to the experts at all times and in all cases of mental illness. Why can’t the common man read the bible and derive from it a method of psychological healing–the other world religions seem to do that and they are making us look “impudent” in the process. Many Buddhists and Hindi Yoga practitioners (however philosophically at war they are with each other) claim that at advanced stages of their meditation even some people with experience of schizophrenia can come off medicine. The Scientologists also individually claim strides in that same direction in fact will not even ‘process’ people on medicine. I understand that we can help people with a pill a day, but the rehabilitation part—that’s what I’m trying to get at in this thread. Why don’t we know how to relate to people with mental illness other than by saying “you have a …problem” even once they are treated. Why can’t treatment be called cure?

Pope John Paul II wrote a book entitled “Crossing The Threshold Of Hope.” Can that promise be fulfilled for the mentally ill today–or is the threshold too wide and paved with too good an intention? Can a mentally ill person go beyond hope to full recovery with or without medicine using a fundamentally Holy Catholic method of rehabilitation?? :confused:
 
Some religions have an utterly different take on life than we do. You cite Scientology, which in my limited experience, seems to promise that any and every person can have all the health, wealth and happiness they want if they only discipline their mind to get it.

This ignores the reality of suffering in the world. We don’t really, fully comprehend suffering, but it is an inescapable part of life. Unlike many of these other religions, catholicism doesn’t encourage us to reject suffering or to do anything and everything to avoid it. Jesus healed the sick and gave sight to the blind, but he also gave his 12 a mission that ended in murder for 11 of them. Suffering is still part of our existence.

I’ve suffered comparatively little in my life, so my thoughts are probably not much help or consolation to someone in severe suffering. But I think there is something our flawed and human condition somehow gains from suffering. It seems to cut through the nonsense and help people realize their dependence on God. And in the long run (i.e. eternity), maybe that ends up somehow being a greater blessing than health, wealth and gratification. So while it is a noble thing to find ways to alleviate suffering, it is not the ultimate goal of our life. If it possible to cure a mental illness, praise God. If it is not, Praise Him anyways, because giving up our own desires and selfish interests in favor of His will for us can only lead to greater joy in eternity.

In any case, a religion which promises to give you a suffering-free life, is probably a scam. Beware.

P.S. Did you mean to say impotent rather than impudent?
 
Some religions have an utterly different take on life than we do. You cite Scientology, which in my limited experience, seems to promise that any and every person can have all the health, wealth and happiness they want if they only discipline their mind to get it.

This ignores the reality of suffering in the world. We don’t really, fully comprehend suffering, but it is an inescapable part of life. Unlike many of these other religions, catholicism doesn’t encourage us to reject suffering or to do anything and everything to avoid it. Jesus healed the sick and gave sight to the blind, but he also gave his 12 a mission that ended in murder for 11 of them. Suffering is still part of our existence.

I’ve suffered comparatively little in my life, so my thoughts are probably not much help or consolation to someone in severe suffering. But I think there is something our flawed and human condition somehow gains from suffering. It seems to cut through the nonsense and help people realize their dependence on God. And in the long run (i.e. eternity), maybe that ends up somehow being a greater blessing than health, wealth and gratification. So while it is a noble thing to find ways to alleviate suffering, it is not the ultimate goal of our life. If it possible to cure a mental illness, praise God. If it is not, Praise Him anyways, because giving up our own desires and selfish interests in favor of His will for us can only lead to greater joy in eternity.

In any case, a religion which promises to give you a suffering-free life, is probably a scam. Beware.

P.S. Did you mean to say impotent rather than impudent?
I think you are more than on to something above. You must know you are correct or else the spirit wouldn’t have impelled you to write it.

However, suffering often shatters faith. This is true particularly in cases where the suffering is prolonged and cannot easily be contextualized or re-storied. The proverbial Job narrative. Good restored from an evil that took away. I cannot disagree with you about the ultimate aim of life in eternity. There is no doubt about it. Life on earth is temporary and of unknown duration.

There was a word that came up in these threads. I read it not too many hours ago. Schadenfreunde. Laughing at the misfortune of others. Pleasure at the misfortune of others. I can accept that I will not enjoy life as much as someone like you who has not known real suffering [at least by your account you haven’t]. You seem worthy of your joy and happiness—so be it. The way I looked at my illness over time was like, OK, I sinned badly and this is the result. Problem is: the consequences are not remitting in their ultimate sense because I perceive this schadenfreunde in society in general. It was in that sense that I [had probably] titled [this thread] ‘impudent’. It was an attempt to draw in those I thought might have stigmatizing views of disregarding the mentally ill from the all encompassing nature of our theology. Yet I attracted a much more compassionate group. To be sure I considered the word ‘impotent’ and probably should have gone with it. Perhaps I would have had different responses. Nevertheless, this has been useful. I think you and others got the idea of what I was getting at [as evidenced by your question of word choice and the responses of others].
 
…The way I looked at my illness over time was like, OK, I sinned badly and this is the result. Problem is: the consequences are not remitting in their ultimate sense because I perceive this schadenfreunde in society in general. …
Jesus actually addressed this. Humans (not just our society, but apparently ancient Jews as well) seem to see suffering as the fault of the person experiencing it. But Jesus rejected that (the blind man wasn’t blind due to his sin OR his parents. He was just blind) and insinuated that suffering has a mysterious purpose that somehow works for both our and God’s glory.

Society man indeed still prefer to turn their eyes away from suffering. But suggest that that has more to do with the desire of others not to have to grapple with the issue of suffering than it has to do with anything personal on your part. Your example of Scientology is a good one in that it caters to a flaw in human nature: people would prefer to think that suffering only comes on those who deserve it and that the worthy won’t have to suffer. Not true, unless Jesus was lying. (Don’t bet on it!)
 
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