A Jehovah's Witness Missionary dumped me!

[Glorthac]

I just got done talking to the local Jehovah’s Witness missionary, who I’ve been debating once a week for about half a year now. He quoted the Parable of the Sower to me, and called me the seed eaten by the birds (that means he said I was corrupted by Satan for rejecting their religion).

When he said we should no longer talk, I asked him if I could ask him one more question. He agreed. I brought up Psalm 101:26-27:
In the beginning, O Lord, thou foundedst the earth: and the heavens are the works of thy hands. They shall perish but thou remainest: and all of them shall grow old like a garment: And as a vesture thou shalt change them, and they shall be changed.

We then looked at the context (as I suggest you do) and I asked him: “Is Psalm 101:26 talking about Jehovah?”

He said yes.

Here’s the punchline. I asked him: “Well here’s the thing, this verse is quoted in Hebrews 1:10.”

We looked at Hebrews 1:10 and the surrounding context. We both said that all the quotes before it are about Jesus, and the quote after Hebrews 1:10 is about Jesus.

I asked: “So then it would seem logical that Hebrews 1:10 is also about Jesus, and because Hebrews 1:10 is a quote of Psalm 101:26, Jesus is Jehovah?”

He looked through his footnotes, and couldn’t find anything. All he could say was: “Well, all I can say is I’ll do research for you and leave you a letter.”

Anyway, the point is, this is my favorite combination of verses (Psalm 101:26 and Hebrews 1:10) because Paul clearly connects Jesus to a passage about Jehovah. I’ve yet to hear a good answer from Jehovah’s Witnesses.

So, I think this guy is ready for the Truth. Pray for him, his name is Keith.

 

[heathernoel]

I wish I could “Like” this post.

I am praying for Keith’s conversion.

 

[LoyalViews]

Oh! You’re smart

I am praying for his conversion!

 

[porthos11]

I just got done talking to the local Jehovah’s Witness missionary, who I’ve been debating once a week for about half a year now. He quoted the Parable of the Sower to me, and called me the seed eaten by the birds (that means he said I was corrupted by Satan for rejecting their religion).

When he said we should no longer talk, I asked him if I could ask him one more question. He agreed. I brought up Psalm 101:26-27:
In the beginning, O Lord, thou foundedst the earth: and the heavens are the works of thy hands. They shall perish but thou remainest: and all of them shall grow old like a garment: And as a vesture thou shalt change them, and they shall be changed.

We then looked at the context (as I suggest you do) and I asked him: “Is Psalm 101:26 talking about Jehovah?”

He said yes.

Here’s the punchline. I asked him: “Well here’s the thing, this verse is quoted in Hebrews 1:10.”

We looked at Hebrews 1:10 and the surrounding context. We both said that all the quotes before it are about Jesus, and the quote after Hebrews 1:10 is about Jesus.

I asked: “So then it would seem logical that Hebrews 1:10 is also about Jesus, and because Hebrews 1:10 is a quote of Psalm 101:26, Jesus is Jehovah?”

He looked through his footnotes, and couldn’t find anything. All he could say was: “Well, all I can say is I’ll do research for you and leave you a letter.”

Anyway, the point is, this is my favorite combination of verses (Psalm 101:26 and Hebrews 1:10) because Paul clearly connects Jesus to a passage about Jehovah. I’ve yet to hear a good answer from Jehovah’s Witnesses.

So, I think this guy is ready for the Truth. Pray for him, his name is Keith.

This is just so good it’s so bad (not for us though)

Virtually the entire set of cross-references from Hebrews 1 demolishes the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ heresy if looked at with any smidgen of intellectual honesty.

 

[Nicea325]

I just got done talking to the local Jehovah’s Witness missionary, who I’ve been debating once a week for about half a year now. He quoted the Parable of the Sower to me, and called me the seed eaten by the birds (that means he said I was corrupted by Satan for rejecting their religion).

When he said we should no longer talk, I asked him if I could ask him one more question. He agreed. I brought up Psalm 101:26-27:
In the beginning, O Lord, thou foundedst the earth: and the heavens are the works of thy hands. They shall perish but thou remainest: and all of them shall grow old like a garment: And as a vesture thou shalt change them, and they shall be changed.

We then looked at the context (as I suggest you do) and I asked him: “Is Psalm 101:26 talking about Jehovah?”

He said yes.

Here’s the punchline. I asked him: “Well here’s the thing, this verse is quoted in Hebrews 1:10.”

We looked at Hebrews 1:10 and the surrounding context. We both said that all the quotes before it are about Jesus, and the quote after Hebrews 1:10 is about Jesus.

I asked: “So then it would seem logical that Hebrews 1:10 is also about Jesus, and because Hebrews 1:10 is a quote of Psalm 101:26, Jesus is Jehovah?”

He looked through his footnotes, and couldn’t find anything. All he could say was: “Well, all I can say is I’ll do research for you and leave you a letter.”

Anyway, the point is, this is my favorite combination of verses (Psalm 101:26 and Hebrews 1:10) because Paul clearly connects Jesus to a passage about Jehovah. I’ve yet to hear a good answer from Jehovah’s Witnesses.

So, I think this guy is ready for the Truth. Pray for him, his name is Keith.

JW’s usually will take a few verses and base an entire argument from it to present a smoking gun. Sorry,but the verse must be used in the proper context. Good for you!

 

[the_phoenix]

I want to remember this in case I come across a Jehovah’s Witness who will listen.
Thanks!

 

[confusedius]

As an ex-JW, I am offended that this supposedly …

“Non-Catholic Religions
Comparing and contrasting beliefs”

is instead really a gloating party for people who have no reason to gloat.

Perhaps you don’t understand the meaning of complex words like “comparing” or “contrasting” not to mention “beliefs”.

Sad, really… poor form.

james

 

[thecone137]

As an ex-JW, I am offended that this supposedly …

“Non-Catholic Religions
Comparing and contrasting beliefs”

is instead really a gloating party for people who have no reason to gloat.

Perhaps you don’t understand the meaning of complex words like “comparing” or “contrasting” not to mention “beliefs”.

Sad, really… poor form.

james

I’m sure there is a more gentle way of letting others know how you feel than how you just did. Perhaps the OP clicked the wrong link and “made a mistake”? Others are simply boasting in a potential new convert. Angels do the same thing in Heaven. Let us be less judgemental of others.

 

[confusedius]

After reading the previous posts, you tell me to be less judgmental of others? There is no reason to even discuss this… like discussing Picasso with the blind…

 

[Curious_Seed]

I just got done talking to the local Jehovah’s Witness missionary, who I’ve been debating once a week for about half a year now. He quoted the Parable of the Sower to me, and called me the seed eaten by the birds (that means he said I was corrupted by Satan for rejecting their religion).

When he said we should no longer talk, I asked him if I could ask him one more question. He agreed. I brought up Psalm 101:26-27:
In the beginning, O Lord, thou foundedst the earth: and the heavens are the works of thy hands. They shall perish but thou remainest: and all of them shall grow old like a garment: And as a vesture thou shalt change them, and they shall be changed.

We then looked at the context (as I suggest you do) and I asked him: “Is Psalm 101:26 talking about Jehovah?”

He said yes.

Here’s the punchline. I asked him: “Well here’s the thing, this verse is quoted in Hebrews 1:10.”

We looked at Hebrews 1:10 and the surrounding context. We both said that all the quotes before it are about Jesus, and the quote after Hebrews 1:10 is about Jesus.

I asked: “So then it would seem logical that Hebrews 1:10 is also about Jesus, and because Hebrews 1:10 is a quote of Psalm 101:26, Jesus is Jehovah?”

He looked through his footnotes, and couldn’t find anything. All he could say was: “Well, all I can say is I’ll do research for you and leave you a letter.”

Anyway, the point is, this is my favorite combination of verses (Psalm 101:26 and Hebrews 1:10) because Paul clearly connects Jesus to a passage about Jehovah. I’ve yet to hear a good answer from Jehovah’s Witnesses.

So, I think this guy is ready for the Truth. Pray for him, his name is Keith.

Prayer?

Pray for him to come to CA Forums, to give his view of the six month exchange?

 

[zaffiroborant]

After reading the previous posts, you tell me to be less judgmental of others? There is no reason to even discuss this… like discussing Picasso with the blind…

Again with the judging and snarky to boot!

 

[LDNCatholic]

As an ex-JW, I am offended that this supposedly …

“Non-Catholic Religions
Comparing and contrasting beliefs”

is instead really a gloating party for people who have no reason to gloat.

Perhaps you don’t understand the meaning of complex words like “comparing” or “contrasting” not to mention “beliefs”.

Sad, really… poor form.

james

He posted an instance where he successfully compared and contrasted (and disproved) the beliefs of a Watchtower missionary.

 

[jrtrent]

I’ve just concluded a year-long study with Jehovah’s Witnesses. They knew from the beginning that I had no intention of joining their church, but their response was that that was okay; they just wanted to give me a chance to learn more about them.

Doing an internet search to refresh my memory, I found James White’s critique of an early edition of Greg Stafford’s defense of Jehovah’s Witness doctrine. An excerpt from that article indicates that there is a defined Watchtower Society position on the use of Psalm 102:25-27 in Hebrews 1:10-12.

Stafford follows instead the explanation provided by the Watchtower Society, which is twofold. First, since the earlier verses differentiate between the Father and the Son, this passage cannot be making Jesus Jehovah. Second, Hebrews 1:5b, a passage that was originally written about Solomon, is applied to Jesus Christ. Since the later application of the passage to Jesus does not make Jesus Solomon, applying a passage that was originally about Jehovah to Jesus does not, necessarily, create an identity between the two. Stafford writes, “Paul no more intended to identify Jesus with Jehovah than he intended to identify Solomon with Jesus. He did, however, apply certain concepts and ideas expressed in those verses which were originally applied to Jehovah God and Solomon, to the Son of God” (50).jesusiscreator.org/?p=296

It will be interesting to see if the letter you get follows that same reasoning.

 

[T_More]

I’ve just concluded a year-long study with Jehovah’s Witnesses. They knew from the beginning that I had no intention of joining their church, but their response was that that was okay; they just wanted to give me a chance to learn more about them.

Doing an internet search to refresh my memory, I found James White’s critique of an early edition of Greg Stafford’s defense of Jehovah’s Witness doctrine. An excerpt from that article indicates that there is a defined Watchtower Society position on the use of Psalm 102:25-27 in Hebrews 1:10-12.

Stafford follows instead the explanation provided by the Watchtower Society, which is twofold. First, since the earlier verses differentiate between the Father and the Son, this passage cannot be making Jesus Jehovah. Second, Hebrews 1:5b, a passage that was originally written about Solomon, is applied to Jesus Christ. Since the later application of the passage to Jesus does not make Jesus Solomon, applying a passage that was originally about Jehovah to Jesus does not, necessarily, create an identity between the two. Stafford writes, “Paul no more intended to identify Jesus with Jehovah than he intended to identify Solomon with Jesus. He did, however, apply certain concepts and ideas expressed in those verses which were originally applied to Jehovah God and Solomon, to the Son of God” (50).jesusiscreator.org/?p=296

It will be interesting to see if the letter you get follows that same reasoning.

What’s telling as well is that Stafford has since “broken away” from the JW’s and started his own “movement”, if memory serves.

 

[jrtrent]

What’s telling as well is that Stafford has since “broken away” from the JW’s and started his own “movement”, if memory serves.

Another blog describes the many changes Stafford’s book has undergone in its subsequent editions and the starting of his own fellowship, the Christian Witnesses of Jah (reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/10/greg-stafford-defends-jehovahs-witnesses-from-the-margins/).

The White critique concerned the first edition of Stafford’s book, when he was still a Jehovah’s Witness. The paragraph I quoted indicates that Stafford’s argument (on the connection between Psalm 102:25-27 and Hebrews 1:10-12) is the recognized Watchtower Society position. Whether non-JW’s find their explanation compelling or not, it is unlikely that Jehovah’s Witnesses will be converted to belief in the deity of Christ by Paul’s quotation from the Psalms.

I think the best chance for the conversion of Jehohah’s Witnesses, and members of any other churches that claim to get their teaching from “the Bible alone,” is to bring them to a recognition that scripture is but one witness and authority for Christian faith and practice. I like this quote from the historical introduction to the first ecumenical council from volume 14 of the second series on Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers:

The editor, however, ventures to call the attention of the reader to the fact that in this, as in every other of the Seven Ecumenical Councils, the question the Fathers considered was not what they supposed Holy Scripture might mean, nor what they, from à priori arguments, thought would be consistent with the mind of God, but something entirely different, to wit, what they had received. They understood their position to be that of witnesses, not that of exegetes. They recognized but one duty resting upon them in this respect—to hand down to other faithful men that good thing the Church had received according to the command of God. The first requirement was not learning, but honesty. The question they were called upon to answer was not, What do I think probable, or even certain, from Holy Scripture? but, What have I been taught, what has been intrusted to me to hand down to others?

 

[pablope]

I’ve just concluded a year-long study with Jehovah’s Witnesses. They knew from the beginning that I had no intention of joining their church, but their response was that that was okay; they just wanted to give me a chance to learn more about them.

Doing an internet search to refresh my memory, I found James White’s critique of an early edition of Greg Stafford’s defense of Jehovah’s Witness doctrine. An excerpt from that article indicates that there is a defined Watchtower Society position on the use of Psalm 102:25-27 in Hebrews 1:10-12.

It will be interesting to see if the letter you get follows that same reasoning.

Glorthac used a different Psalm that you qouted:

[SIGN]I brought up Psalm 101:26-27:
In the beginning, O Lord, thou foundedst the earth: and the heavens are the works of thy hands. They shall perish but thou remainest: and all of them shall grow old like a garment: And as a vesture thou shalt change them, and they shall be changed.[/SIGN]

Psalm 102: 25-27

25Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no

 

[swariffin]

I just got done talking to the local Jehovah’s Witness missionary, who I’ve been debating once a week for about half a year now. He quoted the Parable of the Sower to me, and called me the seed eaten by the birds (that means he said I was corrupted by Satan for rejecting their religion).

When he said we should no longer talk, I asked him if I could ask him one more question. He agreed. I brought up Psalm 101:26-27:
In the beginning, O Lord, thou foundedst the earth: and the heavens are the works of thy hands. They shall perish but thou remainest: and all of them shall grow old like a garment: And as a vesture thou shalt change them, and they shall be changed.

Just a correction, I think. You are talking about Psalm 102:26-27. But, thanks for your reference. There is nothing I can disagree about. Good reference.

 

[JRRTFAN]

I’ve just concluded a year-long study with Jehovah’s Witnesses. They knew from the beginning that I had no intention of joining their church, but their response was that that was okay; they just wanted to give me a chance to learn more about them.

Doing an internet search to refresh my memory, I found James White’s critique of an early edition of Greg Stafford’s defense of Jehovah’s Witness doctrine. An excerpt from that article indicates that there is a defined Watchtower Society position on the use of Psalm 102:25-27 in Hebrews 1:10-12.

eator.org/?p=296

It will be interesting to see if the letter you get follows that same reasoning.

James White is not much more well informed than a Jehovah’s Witness.

 

[jrtrent]

Glorthac used a different Psalm that you qouted

Same Psalm, just a different numbering system:

traditio.com/comment/com0911.htm
*The traditional numbering of the psalms comes from the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament that most Jews at the time of Our Lord used, since most had lost their facility with the Hebrew version during the Diaspora. This is the version of the Old Testament that Our Lord and the writers of the New Testament quote from. Thus, it bears an authority above the Hebrew.

St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate, the Church’s authoritative version, uses this traditional numbering from the Septuagint. The traditional Douay-Rheims version follows this practice, whereas most post Vatican II versions have reverted to the Hebrew numbering, which was reintroduced with the Protestant King James Version. The numbers diverge at Psalm 9A/9B and converge again at Psalm 146/147. All references from the early Church Fathers until around Vatican II (1962-1965) use the traditional numbering. *

 

[jrtrent]

James White is not much more well informed than a Jehovah’s Witness.

If he is in error with respect to the Watchtower Society’s explanation of the verses in question, please enlighten us.