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monina
Guest
How do we as Christians reconcile the notion of a just God vs a merciful God? That is, if God is all just, then He gives us what we deserve; if God is all merciful, then He does not give us what we deserve?
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Meggie
Guest
Vengeful God
<–God’s face!!!
thats what I believe in…I don’t care what anyone else says or does. I believe in a vengful God that you gotta watch out you’re offending.
<–God’s face!!!thats what I believe in…I don’t care what anyone else says or does. I believe in a vengful God that you gotta watch out you’re offending.
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Jay74
Guest
I read a wonderful article once by a Jewish rabbi about forgiveness. He discussed an “apparent contradiction” in the Bible, of how the same God who preaches forgiveness doesn’t always forgive. He gave a detailed analysis, but the explanation is related to the sinner’s repentance. Forgiveness without repentance is a license to commit evil, and is harmful to the innocent.
To make a long story short, *forgiveness isn’t an orphan–its parent is repentance. *God only forgives those who are sorry, and turn away from the sin (that is, those who repent). Without repentance, forgiveness is not possible and the sinner and subject to God’s judgment.
Though Jewish Rabbi’s don’t affirm the New Testament, this man uses the Old Testament that we hold dear. It is a wonderful article, and has helped me with this issue. Here’s the link:
jewishworldreview.com/0902/love_terrorists.html
Great thread for an important topic! I look forward to what others have to say.
Blessings.
J
Jay74
Guest
A brief excerpt from the article cited above:
God’s great gift to us is a heavenly pardon. But His present is predicated on a condition. What He asks us to do before He grants us forgiveness is to acknowledge that we were wrong and that we renounce our sinful behavior.
“Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, and He will abundantly pardon.” (Isaiah 55:7)
Forgiveness is willing to overlook the sins of the past for the sake of an altered future. It is ready to pardon the most terrible wrongs for the price of remorse, regret and the desire for a new beginning. But the one thing God’s forgiveness is unwilling to do is to condone vicious crimes by simply accepting them. An unrepentant sinner mistakes God’s mercy for permission to continue in his ways. To forgive such a person isn’t kindness; its cruelty to all those who’ll be hurt by the evil that wasn’t stopped before it could do more harm.
God’s great gift to us is a heavenly pardon. But His present is predicated on a condition. What He asks us to do before He grants us forgiveness is to acknowledge that we were wrong and that we renounce our sinful behavior.
“Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, and He will abundantly pardon.” (Isaiah 55:7)
Forgiveness is willing to overlook the sins of the past for the sake of an altered future. It is ready to pardon the most terrible wrongs for the price of remorse, regret and the desire for a new beginning. But the one thing God’s forgiveness is unwilling to do is to condone vicious crimes by simply accepting them. An unrepentant sinner mistakes God’s mercy for permission to continue in his ways. To forgive such a person isn’t kindness; its cruelty to all those who’ll be hurt by the evil that wasn’t stopped before it could do more harm.
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theMutant
Guest
Our concepts of justice and mercy are imperfect reflections of the perfect justice and mercy of God. The apparent contradiction comes from inability to perfectly understand these concepts because achieving that level of understanding would require a perfect understanding of God Himself.
God is Just, and perfectly so, because justice is part of His nature (justice would not exist without God). Therefore, when God acts with mercy, He does so in a just way. You can say that we don’t get what we deserve and you’d be right (thank you, God, for that one). But we do get what Christ deserved and what He won for us on the Cross and which He freely chose to pass on to us according to the will of the Father. “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.”
At the same time, God is merciful, and perfectly so, because mercy is part of His nature in the same way that justice is. Therefore, when God invokes His just judgment, He does so in a merciful way. Some would argue that it would be just for God to have left us to our damnation after the fall of Adam because nothing we could do, no matter how sincere our repentance for our own sins, would have meritted salvation. This is also true. However, God recognizes that we DO repent (or, at least, we can do so) and so, in His mercy, He provides us with the channel of Grace, through the Cross of Christ, that elevates our insufficient acts of repentance and reparation to the level of being sufficient. Doing this is not unjust.
In God, justice and mercy are in constant and perfect operation and never conflict. His mercy is just and His justice is merciful. Thank God!!!
God is Just, and perfectly so, because justice is part of His nature (justice would not exist without God). Therefore, when God acts with mercy, He does so in a just way. You can say that we don’t get what we deserve and you’d be right (thank you, God, for that one). But we do get what Christ deserved and what He won for us on the Cross and which He freely chose to pass on to us according to the will of the Father. “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.”
At the same time, God is merciful, and perfectly so, because mercy is part of His nature in the same way that justice is. Therefore, when God invokes His just judgment, He does so in a merciful way. Some would argue that it would be just for God to have left us to our damnation after the fall of Adam because nothing we could do, no matter how sincere our repentance for our own sins, would have meritted salvation. This is also true. However, God recognizes that we DO repent (or, at least, we can do so) and so, in His mercy, He provides us with the channel of Grace, through the Cross of Christ, that elevates our insufficient acts of repentance and reparation to the level of being sufficient. Doing this is not unjust.
In God, justice and mercy are in constant and perfect operation and never conflict. His mercy is just and His justice is merciful. Thank God!!!
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ccav
Guest
This is one of those things that I chalk up to the mystery of God. How He can encompus two seemingly opposite points I think is beyond human ability to comprehend. Reminds me of the whole predestination vs freewill debate. I’ve read lots of theories as to God’s mercy vs His judgement, as I’ve also read lots of theories about His predestination vs allowing us to excercise freewill. I don’t think anyone really and truely understands it. But that is OK I think. As Fr Benedict Groeschel points out, Christianity is contains alot of mystery because we are dealing directly with God who is above all things. So many things in God are mysterious and we only know through divine revelation. I give thanks and praise because I know for sure, even with His judgement which we truely deserve, His love for us is true-for He has sent His only begotten son to save us.
“O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?”
Romans 11:33-34
“O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?”
Romans 11:33-34
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monina
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Edwin1961
Guest
It’s just a matter of faith.
God IS just AND merciful AND everything in between.
Go with God!
Edwin
God IS just AND merciful AND everything in between.
Go with God!
Edwin
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Jay74
Guest
No disrespect taken.
First, I think we are to assume sincerity and forgive when someone repents because, unlike God, we don’t know someone’s heart and can’t read their sincerity.
However, they still must repent. The article was from the Old Testament, but I’ll quote Jesus from the new. “Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.” (Luke 17:3-4)
Notice that each time Jesus said “forgive him”, it was preceded by if he repents. Repentance must preceed forgiveness–however, only God can know the true sincerity in one’s heart. We may have to take their word for it in this world, but God will judge their true heart. That is the difference between the Justice of God and the Mercy of God.
Blessings.
J
Jay74
Guest
One other thing I want to mention in regards to you having an honest question, and meaning no disrespect. One of the most wonderful things about Christianity is that God allows us to question, even argue, with Him. It must be done respectfully (which your question was), and God must have the final say, but it is a wonderful gift we have from God.
The example that comes to mind is when Moses argued with God. When God decided to destroy the Israelites after they worshipped a golden calf, Moses presented three arguments to God for sparing the Jews. God respectfully responded to all three arguments, and actually acceded to Moses in third argument. Isn’t that amazing? That God not only allows us to question Him, if done respectfully, but that we can actually influence Him (as Moses did)? It wouldn’t be a real relationship if we couldn’t.
I just thought you’d like to know that your honest and respectful questions are welcome. Not to me, but to God.
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yinekka
Guest
This is such a great thread. I have learnt so much. Thank you all who have posted such wise comments. Thank you to the person who gave the link to the rabbi’s article.
Peter Kreeft in “Making Choices” Part 1 Chapter 2 says …"the work of compassion is mercy and forgiveness. Mercy presupposes justice. Mercy tempers justice, it does not replace it. Forgiveness also presupposes justice. Forgivness has to have something to forgive, some real wrong. If sin and evil and real wrong are superstitions, then forgiveness is impossible.
We are supposed to have compassion and mercy and forgiveness toward sinners, as God does. But we are not supposed to use “compassion” as an excuse to deny the existence of sin. God never does that. But the modern world does."
I have learnt so much. Thank you all who have posted such wise comments. Thank you to the person who gave the link to the rabbi’s article.Peter Kreeft in “Making Choices” Part 1 Chapter 2 says …"the work of compassion is mercy and forgiveness. Mercy presupposes justice. Mercy tempers justice, it does not replace it. Forgiveness also presupposes justice. Forgivness has to have something to forgive, some real wrong. If sin and evil and real wrong are superstitions, then forgiveness is impossible.
We are supposed to have compassion and mercy and forgiveness toward sinners, as God does. But we are not supposed to use “compassion” as an excuse to deny the existence of sin. God never does that. But the modern world does."
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monina
Guest
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I guess I misunderstood what was required of us to forgive–it makes me feel better to know that we do not need to forgive unless the offender is repentant.
I think I’ve been listening to too many radio call in talk shows in which psychologists talk about forgiving an abusive father or something, even if the father will not admit any abuse occurred!
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theMutant
Guest
Yes, this is because most psychologists, and even society in general, have flawed concepts of what forgiveness, and even love, truly is. We must forgive those who repent but forgiveness doesn’t include pretending that something never happened because the effects still exist. Forgiveness, rather, is part of the process of dealing with a wrong done to you or to one you love.
We are required to love everyone including our enemies and those who have grieveously hurt us; but by God’s standard, not society’s. This is evident in that the old Catholic standard “hate the sin but love the sinner” does not make any sense to modern society. Love is essentially this: to will good for that person. If you can, for example, pray for the person’s repentance, that is an act of love toward him. Love, in this sense, is not an emotion; it’s a choice - an act of will. We can defend ourselves and others and still love those who attack us. We can respectfully but firmly counsel those whose “life choices” or “life styles” are against the plan of God because this is an act of love; even if society calls it a hate crime.
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baltobetsy
Guest
You need to read the New Testament - the “vengeful God” took flesh and became one of us to save us from our sins. It’s an excellent idea to not offend God, but you should work toward making that effort out of love rather than fear.Vengeful God
thats what I believe in…I don’t care what anyone else says or does. I believe in a vengful God that you gotta watch out you’re offending.
Betsy
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KateQ
Guest
Monina, you have really set me to thinking (sign of a good post, I think) and I would like to add a couple of things that have occurred to me.
- I have long thought that an “infinitely merciful God” vs. a “perfectly just God” was one of those wonderful mysteries for us to embrace. When I find I cannot be forgiving, I know that I can turn my anger/hurt over to God and know that He will take care of things. And, I ask that He show me where my heart should be. I invariably find that I start having a change of heart.
- Saying that I don’t have to forgive until someone shows repentance sounds good – and logical – and scriptural, but what if I can no longer expect forgiveness – say from something that happened in my childhood? An unpleasant incident happened to me when I was 14 and I found I was harboring a deep resentment and hatred of the man involved. I found it keeping me from a sense of peace. Finally I made a vow to pray the rosary for 14 days for this man’s soul. It didn’t change what he did, I have know idea if he is alive or dead, but I found by the end of 14 days I could forgive him and turn him over to God’s justice/mercy. Whether he ever came to repentance, I will never know in this life, but I found healing.
- In response to Meggie’s comment: One Saturday I found myself going home after Confession and still berating myself for my “horrible-ness”! The following Saturday I found myself confessing that I was not accepting God’s forgiveness. I grew up with a vengeful God! I’ve learned to accept and recognize the merciful God. It has taken me quite a while, but it’s possible.
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T.A.Stobie_SFO
Guest
In God, justice and mercy are in constant and perfect operation and never conflict. His mercy is just and His justice is merciful. Thank God!!!
Wonderful way of putting it.
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theMutant
Guest
baltobetsy responding to Meggie's vengeful God:
Actually, Jesus talks about hell and its suffering in the Gospels more than it is mentioned in the OT. What the NT really revealed about God that was new and shocking to many Jews is that He is humble as well as glorious and almighty. Too many Christians live under the misconception that the “God of the Old Testament” is a wrathful God while the “God of the New Testament” is a merciful God. Such a concept is nonsensical because, as Christians, we MUST believe that the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament are ONE AND THE SAME!!!
I would ammend this to both the New and the Old Testaments. The OT is full of references of God being merciful and forgiving. This is what truly amazed the Gentiles in OT times because they had no concept of God being merciful and forgiving but the Jews were constantly praising their God who forgave them over and over and over again.
Actually, Jesus talks about hell and its suffering in the Gospels more than it is mentioned in the OT. What the NT really revealed about God that was new and shocking to many Jews is that He is humble as well as glorious and almighty. Too many Christians live under the misconception that the “God of the Old Testament” is a wrathful God while the “God of the New Testament” is a merciful God. Such a concept is nonsensical because, as Christians, we MUST believe that the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament are ONE AND THE SAME!!!
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Jay74
Guest
You’re welcome. I’m glad I could help.
I understand what you are saying about talks shows and psychologists talking about forgiveness–It’s like they see it as an right and not a privilege. The problem with this is that automatic forgiveness is like a license to repeat the behavior, and I think that has firm biblical support.
I used to have a problem with not holding others accountable for how they treated me–I didn’t understand repentance was the parent of forgiveness. Therefore I was long bullied, yet would be kind to those who bullied me. It wasn’t until I took the “Boundaries” class at a church, and started setting limits, that it stopped. I did forgive those who hurt me, but it followed the pattern–as Jesus said “rebuke them” (stand up for what is right and hold them accountable), and if they repent (not only say sorry, but agree to change the behavior), then I’d forgive. It was much better for me, and for them (allow someone to persist in treating you bad is harmful to them as well)–one person comes to mind who I won’t name, let’s just say they never learned to manage their temper until I withheld my friendship and all the benefits that came with it.
Sorry to babble, it’s just such an important topic, so frequently misunderstood–i know, since it almost ruined my life.
Thank you so much for this five star thread!
Blessings to all.
M
Meggie
Guest
I’m sorry I happen to like Veneful God…Its much more natural for me. Its also very BC— Baltimore Catechism which thanks to Seton Home study school is what I know.
God’d not going to send me to Hell for believeing He’s a vengeful God so why should I change my mind? And if He does send me to Hell id just prove I’m right and that He is vengeful.
If anyone has a problem with my attitude pm me…
God’d not going to send me to Hell for believeing He’s a vengeful God so why should I change my mind? And if He does send me to Hell id just prove I’m right and that He is vengeful.
If anyone has a problem with my attitude pm me…
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Jay74
Guest
No problem with that at all, it is biblical as well:“Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” (Hebrews 10:30-31)I think part of the problem for crime and violence is that people talk more of the love of God than His judgment. People need to hear that God will judge their behavior, and that His vengeance is a terrible thing. That is also why we need to repent, so we can have His mercy instead of His vengeance.
Blessings.
P.S. i love this tread.
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