A key question to ask when dealing with abortion

[wanner47]

I guess if they’re going to die, they’d better do it and decrease the surplus population, eh?

“If man you be in heart, not adamant, forbear that wicked cant until you have discovered What the surplus is, and Where it is. Will you decide what men shall live, what men shall die? **It may be, that in the sight of Heaven, you are more worthless and less fit to live than millions like this poor man’s child. **Oh God! To hear the Insect on the leaf pronouncing on the too much life among his hungry brothers in the dust.”

–* A Christmas Carol* by Charles Dickens (emphasis mine)

Ribo, do you also think that every idiot who goes about with “Merry Christmas” on his lips should be boiled in his own pudding and buried with a stake of holly through his heart? Just wondering.

 

[vz71]

When considering the consequences of aborting a fetus, I think we should ask ourselves whether do we want to live the life of the fetus that would be aborted. I think this would help us put into perspective the consequences of abortion.

In other words, let’s ask ourselves if we want to be reincarnated with the life of that fetus that would be aborted.

Admittedly I have not read all of the responses here, so this point may have been hashed already, but let’s take the logic presented and run with it.
Would you want to have a short life, only a few months, never know anyone else but the mother around you, and your only true life experience being put to an excruciating death?

Obviously not. So the choice to abort would be averted, after all…that is the only choice available that averts the situation.

 

[TamM]

When considering the consequences of aborting a fetus, I think we should ask ourselves whether do we want to live the life of the fetus that would be aborted. I think this would help us put into perspective the consequences of abortion.

In other words, let’s ask ourselves if we want to be reincarnated with the life of that fetus that would be aborted.

When considering abortion, we should consider what our lives would be like if the mothers or grandmothers or great grandmothers of all those we love had decided to abort their unborn children. I’d much rather be an adopted child than an aborted fetus. Wouldn’t you?

 

[Robertsxxx]

I’d much rather be an adopted child than an aborted fetus. Wouldn’t you?

Actually in the second case you wouldn’t really care.

• Who said you’d get to be adopted?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You must think that an aborted fetus has no ‘existence’ after the abortion if you think he/she ‘wouldn’t care’. . .

Maybe you missed my post earlier. Suppose a person is born into a poor, short, brutish existence. Does that make the person’s life meaningless? Do you really and truly think that such a person can never experience beauty, truth, and goodness? Can never ‘give’ to others, simply by virtue of his/her living condition? Are material comforts and ‘quality of the life’ the only criteria on which you can ‘judge’ a person’s entire life as 'worthwhile?"

I hope not. That is much too shallow thinking for any human being, at any age. . .

 

[TamM]

Actually in the second case you wouldn’t really care.

• Who said you’d get to be adopted?

Even people raised in orphanages and group homes, while they may suffer incredible low points in life, also have much to give the world and they can also take much joy back from it. And I bet most of em are glad they weren’t aborted. The ones I know are glad to be here, that’s for sure.

 

[Awful_Things]

As any scientist will tell you, even a great failure can be a success in that one learns much from it. Surely ribozyme will join me in concluding that the great failure of his “key question” in this thread has given us even more of an appreciation for the arguments of the pro-life movement.

 

[Robertsxxx]

Even people raised in orphanages and group homes, while they may suffer incredible low points in life, also have much to give the world and they can also take much joy back from it. And I bet most of em are glad they weren’t aborted. The ones I know are glad to be here, that’s for sure.

Do people even read when they reply?

“Actually in the second case you wouldn’t really care.”
Second case= the individual is aborted, never born, thus, no THEM to care for being born or not, or getting adopted, sorrow, happiness, etc.

Were you not glad, sad, etc during the billions of years when you were not born? Doubt so; you can be sad now, when you actually exist, but during those times, or a situation where there would be NO YOU, you wouldn’t be.

As any scientist will tell you, even a great failure can be a success in that one learns much from it. Surely ribozyme will join me in concluding that the great failure of his “key question” in this thread has given us even more of an appreciation for the arguments of the pro-life movement.

Which would be? (since I didn’t go through all of the thread)

 

[kage_ar]

Do people even read when they reply?

“Actually in the second case you wouldn’t really care.”
Second case= the individual is aborted, never born, thus, no THEM to care for being born or not, or getting adopted, sorrow, happiness, etc.

Were you not glad, sad, etc during the billions of years when you were not born? Doubt so; you can be sad now, when you actually exist, but during those times, or a situation where there would be NO YOU, you wouldn’t be.

In case you failed to realize it, this is a Catholic board. We disucss things from a Christian perspective.

Christians believe that the soul, once created at conception, lives forever. The child who is aborted WILL continue to be, they will live in eternity knowing that his mother killed him. We trust that God will grant these children peace and comfort, but, they very much ARE.

 

[Robertsxxx]

In case you failed to realize it, this is a Catholic board. We disucss things from a Christian perspective.

Christians believe that the soul, once created at conception, lives forever. The child who is aborted WILL continue to be, they will live in eternity knowing that his mother killed him. We trust that God will grant these children peace and comfort, but, they very much ARE.

So all the millions of “potential people” that died through spontaneous abortion are sitting around blaming who?

eternity knowing that his mother killed him. We trust that God will grant these children peace and comfort,

So what are you worrying about then? Cause according to you, they aren’t.

 

[kage_ar]

So all the millions of “potential people” that died through spontaneous abortion are sitting around blaming who?

Blame is your word, not mine. Knowledge does not equal blame.

So what are you worrying about then? Cause according to you, they aren’t.

Worrying about? Who said I was worried? Again, you put words in my mouth.

To intentionally take the life of another person is grave matter, it is serious. I do not worry, I trust in God, my saviour.

 

[TamM]

Well Robert, what I read and what I was responding to was the end or your post where you said “+ Who said you’d get to be adopted?”

 

[Ruthie]

I have a good life. I’ve managed to help a few people. I’m comfortable as far as material things go. I have a good marriage with a wonderful man. I love God.

If abortion had been legal when my mother conceived me, I wouldn’t be here.

Nobody but God has the right to decide whether a person will be born or not. He is the one who knows for sure what their life would be like. It is not for us to say, “this baby will probably grow up to be miserable, therefore kill it.”

Helen Keller. Stephen Hawkins. the Elephant Man. Kill 'em all; they might have had miserable lives.

Not to mention the illegitimate baby of a poor 14-year-old in Galilee.

Shame on you, ribozyme. Bad reasoning, and you know it. But I guess we can’t expect reasoning from a mere blob of cells that accidentally grew into a homo sapiens.

God bless you and convert your heart,

Ruthie

 

[Awful_Things]

Which would be? (since I didn’t go through all of the thread)

Maybe try going through all the thread instead of asking me to do it for you and summarize. Did you do this in high school, too? Asking the kid next to you to read the chapter and tell you what it was all about?

 

[Robertsxxx]

Maybe try going through all the thread instead of asking me to do it for you and summarize. Did you do this in high school, too? Asking the kid next to you to read the chapter and tell you what it was all about?

Hm, I figured since you’re the one who made the statement, then you actually knew what you were talking about & could give a brief answer without me making assumptions about what you meant. No such luck, since that would actually require you to give a justification & explanation for what you say & that’s a big no no, apparently.

 

[captbackfire]

Hm, I figured since you’re the one who made the statement, then you actually knew what you were talking about & could give a brief answer without me making assumptions about what you meant. No such luck, since that would actually require you to give a justification & explanation for what you say & that’s a big no no, apparently.

Hi, I’m new here. Question: is the above quotation representative of the overall attitude on Catholic Answers Forum? It doesn’t really seem all that … Christian.

captbackfire

 

[Awful_Things]

Hm, I figured since you’re the one who made the statement, then you actually knew what you were talking about & could give a brief answer without me making assumptions about what you meant. No such luck, since that would actually require you to give a justification & explanation for what you say & that’s a big no no, apparently.

No, I’m happy to explain and justify my beliefs, but not to every new poster who wants to jump in after several dozen posts, rather than reading what others have already said, ask for a summarization of the thread. The OP made a statement and has failed to even attemp to defend it except for posting an odd click of anime. If you think the complex arguments that have filled up all of these pages can be given in a “brief answer”, then the problem is somewhat obvious.

My contention was simple. The OP’s proposition failed. However, I could be wrong. Go ahead and defend the idea proposed in the original post and see if there is merit to it.

 

[survive]

Let’s dispose once and for all of any notion of “potential people”. A zygote is a living individual of the same species as her or his mother. Each day, he or she has more capacities and is bigger and stronger, for a third of a century. Several milestones happen meanwhile, birth and puberty among them. Any and every argument based on the “potential person v. actual person” false distinction can be applied to milestones other than birth. It makes exactly as much sense to talk of a person before puberty as “just a potential person”, or a person before full development in the thirties, or a person before retirement for that matter.

 

[Robertsxxx]

No, I’m happy to explain and justify my beliefs, but not to every new poster who wants to jump in after several dozen posts, rather than reading what others have already said, ask for a summarization of the thread. The OP made a statement and has failed to even attemp to defend it except for posting an odd click of anime. If you think the complex arguments that have filled up all of these pages can be given in a “brief answer”, then the problem is somewhat obvious.

Um you just did below + I wasn’t asking of a summary of the thread.

" the great failure of his “key question” in this thread has given us even more of an appreciation for the arguments of the pro-life movement. "

& how did his/her argument actually do that?

+Wait, wasn’t the OP defending the same position as you in the 1st place???

If, I would believe in reincarnation/karma/samsara/etc then Yes I would see their statement as somewhat making sense, but I don’t. Furthemore, the definition of “life” can be different: from the Hinduistic perspective the OP would need to take for their argument to make sense, I don’t think the embryo-fetus would fit the definition of life. But I’m not too knowledgable in that tradition to be sure of their explanations; are you?

A zygote is a living individual

So… zygote=individual; so when the zygote splits to give grow to twin forms that’s still an individual? Where do you stack the extra individual?

PS: just for the heck of it I actually went to look at the biological definition of individual, which said “a single organism capable of independent existence”. How does a zygote fit that description; or where you using some different definition of individual*?
But this goes a bit off topic though.

 

[Awful_Things]

+Wait, wasn’t the OP defending the same position as you in the 1st place???

Nope. Not even close. From the beginning of the thread I have pointed out the absurdity of the OP’s point. I think that your interpretation otherwise shows part of the problem with not having read the thread.