A Lament for Anglicanism

[nsper7]

After reading and participating in several threads discussing Anglicanism, I find it a bit saddening. On June 1st, I was Confirmed into the Episcopal Church, but it seems as though I have become Anglican in bad times for Anglicanism.

We have the Real Presence and Apostolic Succession, we recite the Nicene Creed, yet many Anglicans seem to have lost their way. We have a long and proud history (what other church can trace its foundation to a Pope?), yet we seem to losing our future, at least in America and the ‘Western’ provinces of Anglicanism.

Where is the church that Pope Gregory the Great and St. Augustine of Canterbury founded (and, yes, I know there were Christians in Britain before that time, but it was not totally continuous due to Anglo-Saxon invasions and such…although it is interesting to note that in the 4th Century AD there was an Archbishop of London, Restitutus, who attended the Council of Arles and may have been involved in the First Nicene Council)?

 

[TriuneUnity]

After reading and participating in several threads discussing Anglicanism, I find it a bit saddening. On June 1st, I was Confirmed into the Episcopal Church, but it seems as though I have become Anglican in bad times for Anglicanism.

We have the Real Presence and Apostolic Succession, we recite the Nicene Creed, yet many Anglicans seem to have lost their way. We have a long and proud history (what other church can trace its foundation to a Pope?), yet we seem to losing our future, at least in America and the ‘Western’ provinces of Anglicanism.

Where is the church that Pope Gregory the Great and St. Augustine of Canterbury founded (and, yes, I know there were Christians in Britain before that time, but it was not totally continuous due to Anglo-Saxon invasions and such…although it is interesting to note that in the 4th Century AD there was an Archbishop of London, Restitutus, who attended the Council of Arles and may have been involved in the First Nicene Council)?

Have you considered moving into one of the Continuing Anglican churches?

 

[GKC]

Have you considered moving into one of the Continuing Anglican churches?

We’re not always easy to locate.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus

 

[GKC]

After reading and participating in several threads discussing Anglicanism, I find it a bit saddening. On June 1st, I was Confirmed into the Episcopal Church, but it seems as though I have become Anglican in bad times for Anglicanism.

We have the Real Presence and Apostolic Succession, we recite the Nicene Creed, yet many Anglicans seem to have lost their way. We have a long and proud history (what other church can trace its foundation to a Pope?), yet we seem to losing our future, at least in America and the ‘Western’ provinces of Anglicanism.

Where is the church that Pope Gregory the Great and St. Augustine of Canterbury founded (and, yes, I know there were Christians in Britain before that time, but it was not totally continuous due to Anglo-Saxon invasions and such…although it is interesting to note that in the 4th Century AD there was an Archbishop of London, Restitutus, who attended the Council of Arles and may have been involved in the First Nicene Council)?

Also in attendance at Arles were the bishops of York and (probably) Colchester. And British bishops attended the Council of Rimini, 359.

I disagree with your conclusion about the foundation of the Church in Britain, but your basic conclusion is accurate.

GKC

 

[jay29]

Why don’t you just become a REAL CATHOLIC? What is the problem?

 

[peary]

After reading and participating in several threads discussing Anglicanism, I find it a bit saddening. On June 1st, I was Confirmed into the Episcopal Church, but it seems as though I have become Anglican in bad times for Anglicanism.

We have the Real Presence and Apostolic Succession, we recite the Nicene Creed, yet many Anglicans seem to have lost their way. We have a long and proud history (what other church can trace its foundation to a Pope?), yet we seem to losing our future, at least in America and the ‘Western’ provinces of Anglicanism.

You do? How?

 

[nsper7]

We’re not always easy to locate.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus

There is an Episcopal Missionary Church and a Christian Episcopal Church in my town, plus a church that schismed from the Episcopal Church and is now affiliated with the Anglican Church of Kenya.

Also in attendance at Arles were the bishops of York and (probably) Colchester. And British bishops attended the Council of Rimini, 359.

I disagree with your conclusion about the foundation of the Church in Britain, but your basic conclusion is accurate.

I’ll trust that your information is accurate. In reading up on the Church of England, they tend to view their ‘official’ founding as being when St. Augustine of Canterbury was consecrated as Archbishop of Canterbury by Pope Gregory I.

How did the Church view England Pre-St. Augustine of Canterbury?

 

[chris_molter]

it seems as though I have become Anglican in bad times for Anglicanism.

I feel your pain, my friend. And not in the Bill Clinton sense, I really do.

 

[angelusm]

I’m afraid you have no Real Presence and no Apostolic Succession. Anglicans keep on talking about St. Augustine and I think he wouldn’t be happy about it. He was in unity with the pope while Anglicans are not. Anglicanism was born in the XVI century in the blood of Catholic martyrs.
Anglicanism is a big mistake, I see absolutely no reason to be Anglican. There will be more divisions in Anglican Communion because this is the nature of all Protestant denominations, it’s unstoppable.

 

[nsper7]

nsper7;3967632:

it seems as though I have become Anglican in bad times for Anglicanism.

I feel your pain, my friend. And not in the Bill Clinton sense, I really do.

I was born and raised Episcopalian in a solid diocese and parish that my parents and grandparents had attended. I was even beginning the ordination process during the whole Gene Robinson blowup.

It’s not easy. The chaplain at the college I attended and I had many long talks about our church and why it was imploding and what the root causes were and how it could be fixed and IF it could be fixed and so on and so on.

I won’t go through the whole drawn out thing, but in the end, I came into communion with the Catholic Church and not long after, I found out that my former chaplain did the same; as did the priest at my home parish after he retired. (Out of the three of us, only the chaplain was really Anglo-Catholic. My priest and I were pretty middle of the road)

I can only hope that adequate room is made within the Catholic Church for all the great and wonderful things about Anglicanism, for it seems today that the Anglicans, by and large, are poor stewards of their own gifts.

There are a fair number of people bolting from the Anglican Communion, either for Rome, the East, another Anglican province or Protestantism. For me, I will probably stay within the Episcopal Church for the time being, although I will probably face some conflict for my beliefs. Luckily, my parish is fairly orthodox (our Chaplain is female, but for me, that is not an issue, although I know many disagree). For me, what is bothersome are the ordination of the openly gay bishop who left his wife and family, the continued support of Bishop Spong and a lean by some towards almost a Unitarian Universalism and ignoring Scripture and Tradition. I still think our Sacraments and Apostolic Succession are valid. Maybe I need to be careful so I don’t melo-dramatize or work myself up as it were.

I guess as long as they’ll tolerate someone who does believe the words of the BCP, the XXXIX Articles and the Anglican Catechism, I guess I will probably remain joyously Episcopalian.

Again, sorry if maybe I worked myself up into melodrama. For me personally, it is going well, but I know there are problematic parishes and stuff out there.

 

[GKC]

There is an Episcopal Missionary Church and a Christian Episcopal Church in my town, plus a church that schismed from the Episcopal Church and is now affiliated with the Anglican Church of Kenya.

I’ll trust that your information is accurate. In reading up on the Church of England, they tend to view their ‘official’ founding as being when St. Augustine of Canterbury was consecrated as Archbishop of Canterbury by Pope Gregory I.

How did the Church view England Pre-St. Augustine of Canterbury?

You may trust it. See Moorman’s A HISTORY OF THE CHURCH IN ENGLAND, among other places.

If by Church in the last question, you mean Rome, Gregory saw it as a field for missionary work, needing setting in order.

The whole issue of the Celtic Church is another matter. Bu it was there.

GKC

 

[chris_molter]

I guess as long as they’ll tolerate someone who does believe the words of the BCP, the XXXIX Articles and the Anglican Catechism, I guess I will probably remain joyously Episcopalian.

Well, who knows how long that tolerance will last? The Presiding Bishop and her friends have a rather totalitarian leaning which makes me terribly afraid for all my friends (some of whom are priests with families) still in the Episcopal Church.

I wish you well in your choice to remain and I’ll keep you in my prayers. For what it’s worth I never considered leaving TEC for another branch of Anglicanism, or another denomination either. I still have a great affection for my old Bishop, diocese, and my parish (I visit often).

I’d highly recommend keeping in touch with like-minded folks in the church online or through organizations. Also, it’s good to keep abreast of what’s happening outside your parish and diocese and Canon Kendall Harmon’s Titusonenine blog is probably THE place to get your info.

 

[GKC]

I’m afraid you have no Real Presence and no Apostolic Succession. Anglicans keep on talking about St. Augustine and I think he wouldn’t be happy about it. He was in unity with the pope while Anglicans are not. Anglicanism was born in the XVI century in the blood of Catholic martyrs.
Anglicanism is a big mistake, I see absolutely no reason to be Anglican. There will be more divisions in Anglican Communion because this is the nature of all Protestant denominations, it’s unstoppable.

Be aware, if you are not, that Anglicans don’t accept the validity of the judgement rendered in Merry del Val’s words, over Leo XIII’s signature, in Apostolicae Curae. Certainly it’s appropraite for a RC to affirm it, but nsper7 was speaking specifically as an Anglican. Who, I trist, knows what the RC position on Anglcain orders is.

GKC

 

[chris_molter]

I’m afraid you have no Real Presence and no Apostolic Succession. Anglicans keep on talking about St. Augustine and I think he wouldn’t be happy about it. He was in unity with the pope while Anglicans are not. Anglicanism was born in the XVI century in the blood of Catholic martyrs.

While I agree with you in substance, I don’t think this is very helpful or in the spirit of fraternal love. It’s much like the uber-evangelicals who come here telling us we worship crackers and Mary.

Also, since the 1800s, many high church Anglicans have possibly been ordained validly by Old Catholic or PNCC Bishops using proper formularies (making their orders not actually Anglican, as it were), so it’s POSSIBLE that *some *Anglicans DO have a valid succession, and therefore, Eucharist. Let’s not close doors to unity ourselves when Rome itself hasn’t ruled on these changes yet.

 

[KingAlfred]

After reading and participating in several threads discussing Anglicanism, I find it a bit saddening. On June 1st, I was Confirmed into the Episcopal Church, but it seems as though I have become Anglican in bad times for Anglicanism.

We have the Real Presence and Apostolic Succession, we recite the Nicene Creed, yet many Anglicans seem to have lost their way. We have a long and proud history (what other church can trace its foundation to a Pope?), yet we seem to losing our future, at least in America and the ‘Western’ provinces of Anglicanism.

Where is the church that Pope Gregory the Great and St. Augustine of Canterbury founded (and, yes, I know there were Christians in Britain before that time, but it was not totally continuous due to Anglo-Saxon invasions and such…although it is interesting to note that in the 4th Century AD there was an Archbishop of London, Restitutus, who attended the Council of Arles and may have been involved in the First Nicene Council)?

IMO, Anglicanism was doomed from the beginning. It represented a ‘middle-path’ denomination between Catholicism and Protestantism, begun at the height of the Reformation, under dubious circumstances (ie, King Henry VIII). This permanently set the stage for perennial internal conflict, which is now culminating in the fall of Anglicanism.

 

[GKC]

While I agree with you in substance, I don’t think this is very helpful or in the spirit of fraternal love. It’s much like the uber-evangelicals who come here telling us we worship crackers and Mary.

Also, since the 1800s, many high church Anglicans have possibly been ordained validly by Old Catholic or PNCC Bishops using proper formularies (making their orders not actually Anglican, as it were), so it’s POSSIBLE that *some *Anglicans DO have a valid succession, and therefore, Eucharist. Let’s not close doors to unity ourselves when Rome itself hasn’t ruled on these changes yet.

While I appreciate the sentiment, it’s not completely accurate. OC/PNCC bishops have been participating in Anglican consecrations since 1932/1946, respectively. This results in Anglican bishops who have OC/PNCC lines, and hence convey (as the theory is) valid orders to all Anglican priests they ordain. It’s not a case of finding the occasional Anglican priest ordained by an OC/PNCC bishop (and I don’t know of any), but of the infusion of OC/PNCC lines in the Anglican episcopate.

This does not consider the issue of valid matter, as it has raised its head in the past few years.

GKC

 

[elgar]

I’m afraid you have no Real Presence and no Apostolic Succession. Anglicans keep on talking about St. Augustine and I think he wouldn’t be happy about it. He was in unity with the pope while Anglicans are not. Anglicanism was born in the XVI century in the blood of Catholic martyrs.
Anglicanism is a big mistake, I see absolutely no reason to be Anglican. There will be more divisions in Anglican Communion because this is the nature of all Protestant denominations, it’s unstoppable.

Angelusm

Don’t let your distaste for all things “Anglican” cloud your objectivity on the facts. NSPER7 was being very sincere in his lament on the timing of joining the Anglican church. Anglo-Catholics DO believe in the real presence in the Eucharist and probably greater percentage wise than a typical Catholic these days.

Anglicans considering converting to Roman Catholicism should hold tight and see what becomes of the movement to promote the Anglican Use Rite being discussed at this very moment.

 

[nsper7]

Angelusm

Don’t let your distaste for all things “Anglican” cloud your objectivity on the facts. NSPER7 was being very sincere in his lament on the timing of joining the Anglican church. Anglo-Catholics DO believe in the real presence in the Eucharist and probably greater percentage wise than a typical Catholic these days.

Anglicans considering converting to Roman Catholicism should hold tight and see what becomes of the movement to promote the Anglican Use Rite being discussed at this very moment.

Thanks for your understanding. When I first found Anglicanism, I remember what drew me was the Eucharist (I did not understand about the Real Presence at first), and then the theology and history only cemented my love for Anglicanism. During my Confirmation classes, I remember learning that our Eucharistic liturgy can trace back to the Early Church (I knew the Book of Common Prayer was based on the Latin Rite liturgies).

Unfortunately, if we continue down the path some elements of the Episcopal Church are on, our great past will not matter. What happened to the church of Pope Gregory I?

 

[nsper7]

Angelusm

Don’t let your distaste for all things “Anglican” cloud your objectivity on the facts. NSPER7 was being very sincere in his lament on the timing of joining the Anglican church. Anglo-Catholics DO believe in the real presence in the Eucharist and probably greater percentage wise than a typical Catholic these days.

Anglicans considering converting to Roman Catholicism should hold tight and see what becomes of the movement to promote the Anglican Use Rite being discussed at this very moment.

BTW- I glanced at the Anglican Use Rite. It is extremely similar to the BCP (although the 1928, not '79, one).

Now, if only the Pope would submit to the authority of +Cantuar, then it would all work out fine. j/k

 

[Hesychios]

BTW- I glanced at the Anglican Use Rite. It is extremely similar to the BCP (although the 1928, not '79, one).

Now, if only the Pope would submit to the authority of +Cantuar, then it would all work out fine. j/k

If only…

The biggest problem with the Anglican Use is that it has thus far been (openly admitted) but a transitional stage for the congregation, a means to give Anglicans time to adjust to their new status as Latin Catholics. Once the original pastor retires or otherwise departs the parish changes over to the Latin liturgy.

The church does not presently recognize the Anglican form of liturgy as a Rite. It unfortunately has thus far treated it as a liturgical practice to be tolerated temporarily but not ultimately accepted. The liturgical form could potentially be given formal permanent acceptance, but it so far has not.

In the Byzantine tradition such variations in practice are not uncommon at all. The term used in those cases is a Recension. That might be a more appropriate way to look at the Anglican (sometimes called the Sarum) variation of the Latin liturgy.

Most Anglican parishes that have considered the Anglican Use in the past have sooner or later come to the realization that the agreement means the property goes to the local Latin bishop, and the liturgy will eventually be discarded. The nice books they have been using will then be set aside.

At that point the parish goes into the regular line up of Latin Catholic parishes under the bishop, and must be able to justify the resources being allocated to it like any other parish.