A Late October Liturgy Message

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AlexV said:
Popes don’t give out pectoral crosses as souvenirs. Pectoral crosses have significance. They are an outward sign of the episcopal dignity and rank.
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But of course, episcopal dignity and rank does not need to be connected with every pectoral cross. I assume one can give a cross to fellow Christian, it isthe symbol of our faith.
 
The pectoral cross is actually a liturgical vestment according to Catholic tradition.

It’s more than a Christian symbol common to all believers. It’s a symbol of episcopal dignity.
 
AlexV said:
The pectoral cross is actually a liturgical vestment according to Catholic tradition.

It’s more than a Christian symbol common to all believers. It’s a symbol of episcopal dignity.
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I will admit that I am ignorant of the event but I will also say that the whole tone of this thread leads me to think that you may want to look at it for more than it is. I wonder if it was given as a pectoral cross, a vestment, and a symbol of the episcopacy.
 
Alex I was referring to the meeting with the French Archbishop not the Archbishop of Canterbury
 
Was it a pectoral cross? I thought it was a ring given to Michael Ramsey.

Mind you, I don’t think it was a custom of the archbishop of Canterbury predecessors to kiss the Pope’s hands.
 
I don’t have Bugnini’s book in front of me to double check.

I believe it was a cross. It was was an episcopal ring, it’s even worse, because while one give extreme latitude to Paul and say a cross is a Christian symbol, a ring isn’t a Christian symbol in the same general sense.

Both, in any case, are explicitly EPISCOPAL SYMBOLS.

The point remains: in the same year, the false archbishop of Canterbury was received with signs of episcopal dignity and respect, while a true archbishop received no such signs.
 
Double-checked another volume in front of me.

Paul VI gave a ring.

John Paul II gave a pectoral cross.

Oh well…even worse than what I originally posted.
 
Pope PaulVI gave an Episcopal Ring to Michael Ramsey, JPII gave the Pectoral Cross to Rowan Willims, who in turn presented Benedict XVI a pectoral cross
 
Thanks for that info, Alex!
Have you heard of the book Iota Unum? I just ordered it; looks to be an interesting read, along with Open Letter to Confused Catholics, *Liturgical Movement, *and Problem of Reform.
 
So Alex, after reading this thread, a question came to me. I’m just curious to know what goal you hope to accomplish by posting it? Should we be thinking about rejection of the Novus Ordo, Vatican II, etc.?

It’s clear that you think that Pope Paul VI did some scandalous things. What do you hope to accomplish by spreading something that you think is scandalous?
 
May I suggest that all the liturgically minded keep the day (Nov 30) as a liturgical Guy Fawkes. Burn an effigy of Bugnini on a bonfire, reduce it to ashes as he did the liturgy, and sing the responsory from Acts 13:

V. O plene omni dolo et omni fallacia fili diaboli inimice omnis justitiae non desinis subvertere vias Domini rectas?

(O full of all guile, and of all deceit, child of the devil, enemy of all justice, thou ceasest not to pervert the right ways of the Lord?, DR)

http://www.lexi.net/bonfire/images/bonfire2.jpg http://www.hazcheck.com/images/bonfire_s.jpg
And for good measure the extract from St. Jerome regarding St. Polycarp(adapted)

*V. Cumque ei fortuito obviam fuisset Bugnini et diceret “Cognoscis nos?”, respondit : “Cognosco primogenitum diaboli”.
Non desinis subvertere… *

(One day Bugnini met him by chance and said, “Do you recognize me?” He responded, “I recognize the firstborn of the devil.”
Thou ceasest not…)
 
bear06 said:
So Alex, after reading this thread, a question came to me. I’m just curious to know what goal you hope to accomplish by posting it? Should we be thinking about rejection of the Novus Ordo, Vatican II, etc.?

It’s clear that you think that Pope Paul VI did some scandalous things. What do you hope to accomplish by spreading something that you think is scandalous?
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Why are you so afraid of the Truth?
 
bear06 said:
And that is? Why are you so afraid of answering questions?
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i’m not afraid of answering questions. I just don’t answer them on demand. Hectoring me constantly isn’t going to make me more likely to, either.
 
Dr.Bombay said:
That is exactly what it would not be. But thanks for trying.
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Well, I wouldn’t say that it is “exactly what it would not be.” as that is implying that it is the exact opposite of Ad Hominem. It is Ad Hominem, but not purely, as you will find most logical fallacies are. I was a bit hasty, and forgot the exact fallacy that fits your question perfectly: Plurium Interrogationum (many questions). The most common example of this is “Are you still beating your wife?” There is no correct answer to this question, for both yes and no imply that you were at one point beating your wife, even if you never have.
Your question: “Why are you so afraid of the Truth?” Does not have a correct answer either. It starts with the unproven presupposition that Bear06 is afraid of the truth. If Bear06 denies that he (sorry if she) is afraid of the truth, he has not answered the question. But, if he gives any other answer, he affirms the presupposition that he is afraid of the Truth.
My advice is to answer “mu.”

I have a question for you, “Have you ever taken a logic class?”

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

P.S.
I’m just passing through, not intending to stay unless someone makes me. I have far more fun out by the “Back Fence.”

pip pip
 
Thursday1 said:
Well, I wouldn’t say that it is “exactly what it would not be.” as that is implying that it is the exact opposite of Ad Hominem. It is Ad Hominem, but not purely, as you will find most logical fallacies are. I was a bit hasty, and forgot the exact fallacy that fits your question perfectly: Plurium Interrogationum (many questions). The most common example of this is “Are you still beating your wife?” There is no correct answer to this question, for both yes and no imply that you were at one point beating your wife, even if you never have.
Your question: “Why are you so afraid of the Truth?” Does not have a correct answer either. It starts with the unproven presupposition that Bear06 is afraid of the truth. If Bear06 denies that he (sorry if she) is afraid of the truth, he has not answered the question. But, if he gives any other answer, he affirms the presupposition that he is afraid of the Truth.
My advice is to answer “mu.”

I have a question for you, “Have you ever taken a logic class?”

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

P.S.
I’m just passing through, not intending to stay unless someone makes me. I have far more fun out by the “Back Fence.”

pip pip
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Are you a philosophy grad student? My husband needs an assistant. Bravo or Brava!!!:clapping:
 
Dr.Bombay said:
i’m not afraid of answering questions. I just don’t answer them on demand. Hectoring me constantly isn’t going to make me more likely to, either.
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Hey, go ahead and put me on ignore. I want to know the source and so do others who have asked you. If you can’t give a source, you should keep it to youself. I even said a name would suffice. You act as if this is a horrible request. It’s a request for a name.
 
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