A Left-Wing Pro-Life Perspective

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In other words, I think it would be entirely wrong for Catholics to practice the kind of entryism that was associated with Communists in the 1950’s-1980’s, quietly infiltrating legal and political structures and then showing their true colours once in power, passing draconian laws against abortion that nobody wanted in the first place.
I must respectfully disagree with you. Passing laws to protect innocent human lives is the thing to do regardless if nobody (of those already born) want such laws. It is a matter of human rights. These human beings have human rights intrinsic to their human nature and to protect those rights is in no way draconian. The government doesn’t grant people intrinsic human rights. They already have them. The government can only protect those rights, which it needs to do.
Not only would such laws be undemocratic, they would also not stop abortion.
How would they not be democratic?
Instead, we would be locking up thousands of women who are themselves victims, hundreds of doctors for following their consciences, leading thousands more women to risk their lives in dangerous back-street abortions,
Are you saying these are all worse evils than legalized murder?
condemning countless children to orphanages or life on the streets,
Of course you can ask anyone who grew up in an orphanage (I know quite a few myself) if they would have rather been killed than to have grown up in an orphanage.
and of course, in our modern world of global transport, those women who can afford to (and very few can’t) would simply buy a cheap flight across the border to procure an abortion.
A couple of points here. People will commit crimes no matter what the law says. These is not a valid reason to legalize something or keep something legal. Now if there are “very few who can’t” afford “cheap global transport” to “Joe’s abortion shop” across the border, the argument of not being able afford giving birth doesn’t hold much water.
Now it is well and good to push for social change to tackle most of the other problems you mention, this does not in anyway justify abortion or killing human beings in the mean time legally.
 
I keep asking the same question over and over: How can we convince people abortion is wrong when the law says it’s a right?
 
I keep asking the same question over and over: How can we convince people abortion is wrong when the law says it’s a right?
I guess you do not have faith in human moral development. I guess you concluded that a majority of humanity will always be mired in Kohlberg’s Stage 4: a law has to tell them what is right or wrong. They could not mature morally to figure that out independently.
 
I guess you do not have faith in human moral development. I guess you concluded that a majority of humanity will always be mired in Kohlberg’s Stage 4: a law has to tell them what is right or wrong. They could not mature morally to figure that out independently.
I have great faith in human moral development – so much so that I think if we legally declare abortion to be a wrong instead of a right, many people will see that it is wrong.
 
One of my good friends has an extremely left wing, but very dedicated orthodox Catholic pro-life perspective.

His work has been in the creative liberal arts field.

He used to get fired all the time. Because of his pro-life perspective. His professional cohorts were all of a [my words] pseudo-intellectual pro-choice perspective.

Nearest thing to genuine anti-Catholic persecution that I ever saw.
 
I have great faith in human moral development – so much so that I think if we legally declare abortion to be a wrong instead of a right, many people will see that it is wrong.
You only confirm my point with that remark as people need authoritive dictums to change their moral perspective. (A characteristic of those in the “conventional stage.”) I guess Catholicism’s tenets have to be forced throughout the population.
 
Being a confirmed secularist the Ribo has concern so put this out-
You only confirm my point with that remark. I guess Catholicism’s tenets have to be forced throughout the population.
Well, what can we say? LOL. But we won’t force it, we’re just gonna use elections to stack the deck with ringers, and then use the bully pulpit to get Roe v Wade struck down and get the issue back to the states. No secret on what the agenda is. 😉
 
You only confirm my point with that remark as people need authoritive dictums to change their moral perspective. (A characteristic of those in the “conventional stage.”) I guess Catholicism’s tenets have to be forced throughout the population.
Oh, heavens to Murgatroyd that we should treat murder like murder!:rolleyes:
 
What I’m arguing is that our first task as pro-life campaigners must be in advocating SOCIAL change, which must take effect before LEGAL change is even conceivable.my 2c.
I think I can offer a somewhat unique perspective. Quite serendipitously, I came to an ironic discovery about the abortion issue, having been a writing teacher.

I taught college level writing courses for six years, mostly freshman composition classes, at public colleges where proselytizing for any religion is illegal. For argument essays, students wanted to tackle “hot button” topics like capital punishment, gun control, stem-cell research, abortion, topics so overplayed in the media that for a writing teacher they have become clichés; as well, they’re highly prone to plagiarism as pirated essays of this kind abound on the Internet. The status quo arguments have little power to persuade anymore; many students were numb, or merely parroting back what they’d heard without reasoning it out for themselves. Despite the fact that these are important issues, I took the position of “outlawing” them, my excuse being that students rarely bring anything “new” to the table, which predictably caused rebellion. I’d say, “Let’s take abortion for example.” I began by reviewing **connotation **(the emotional associations we have with words) and **denotation **(their dictionary definitions). I asked students to call out words with “negative” connotations about children: rug-rat, ankle-biter, condom mishap (not making that one up), snot-nosed brat, etc. Then I asked for overall “positive” connotations about children: *child, infant, toddler, baby *(which are really *neutral *terms, but in light of the preceding negative ones, they *seem *positive), bundle-of-joy, mamma’s little angel, etc. I gave the typical spiel about how overly positive or negative terminology betrays a non-objective attitude, a bias. Then, I asked for medical terminology: *zygote, blastocyst, embryo, fetus *(for the record, few said blastocyst, except nursing students).

Then, with these words in three neat little columns on the board behind me, I told the tragic tale of a student who wrote about abortion for her 10 page research essay, spending **six pages **detailing the different abortion procedures, just to waste space:mad: , without any reasoning of her own. She discussed in graphic detail (I asked for vivid details of course) how the head of the fetus is crushed with forceps, its limbs dismembered, vacuumed up, etc. going into more detail than even many abortion websites do. I remember feeling a bit nauseous as I read (despite already knowing the facts), but thinking “What a strong pro-life essay.” Then, it turned out her thesis was Pro-Choice. I was floored. “This student’s laziness caused her downfall,” I warned my students, “for it was then that *I came to my great ironic discovery that you really cannot argue **for **abortion by **describing *abortions.” :eek:

Strictly speaking, as an argumentative strategy, it just doesn’t make sense. When arguing for abortions, you’re shooting yourself in the foot if you cast any bright light whatsoever on the very thing you’re advocating. A Pro-Life essay uses words with **connotations **most suited to their cause: child, infant, baby, murder, whereas a Pro-Choice essay must rely on zygote, fetus, medical procedure, vacuum aspiration, and no matter how you spin it, in the end, there is no way to disguise the dismemberment of a human body. Once they recognized that irony, my pro-choice students usually became perturbed and yet the fact is that describing abortions in detail is gruesome; when disguised by terms with “neutral” connotations and non-emotionally charged language, they’re almost spooky. It didn’t always change minds but it threw much light on how arguments can be constructed specifically to deceive, and some arguments must deceive in order to succeed. If any teachers reading this want to incorporate this as a lesson, feel free. It’s not preaching. It’s promoting sound logical argumentative strategies.

As abortion posts are common, I may post this very story on other threads, so forgive me if you ever see it again–you know where it started. DL82’s proposition of Social change before Legal change is really the only way to go. I don’t ever want to see women imprisoned (as I don’t see Jesus ever wanting to see women imprisoned, or stoned to death, etc). The fact that abortion is murder is one thing, but to equate it with murder in the 1st is essentially the false analogy fallacy–though death is death, abortion of an unborn human and the gun-shot murder of a grown person just don’t match up seamlessly point for point. Let us not rely on fallacies; there is enough logic in the truth.
 
But what government programs for the poor have contributed to these things?
What “things” are you talking about? Homelessness … government programs are not a major cause of homelessness in America … the two major causes of homelessness in America today are Drugs and Mental Illness [or perhpas the legal system that liberalized treatment of mental illness patients such that they cannot be compelled to take medicaltions or be confined to hospitals for treatement …

The Great Society has failed … the pulic housing of the 60’s and 70’s were crated because some folks thought that if you gave nice facilities to poor people at low or no cost, homelessness and poverty would end. Good idea, did not work … the housing developments quickly became ruinous slums … and dens for crime and drugs…

The sexual revolution with its “if it feels good do it” mentality created a climate where free sex went hand in hand with not having to face the reality of the actions …

The Government does not force people to engage in sexual behavior … the government does not force people to abort rather than to offer a child for adoption … judges and legeslatures by their fiat have allowed the man no say in whether his child is aborted or not … nor does that same man have the right to opt out of parenting if they “choose” not to parent … they are forced to support the child [wanted or not] the woman gets to decide if she wants to parent or not …

Children can obtain abortions without their parent’s knowledge and with scholl staff support and active participation, but not an aspirin … SIngle mothers receive more aid through WIC, Food stamps and welfare … some low income married couples can’t get aid … this encourages parents not to marry [and many 'couples live together unmarried and collect aid] which is harmful for the children …

The sex without benefit of marriage crowd has lead to an increase in mothers who have children by two or three faters [none of which were married to their mothers]. Children in homes with non biological fathers are more likely to be abused …

So what government program are you saying is the root of all of the social justice issues of our time?

There have always been poor and rich, smart and dumb, good and evil … human nature always has to choose …
 
The fact that abortion is murder is one thing, but to equate it with murder in the 1st is essentially the false analogy fallacy–though death is death, abortion of an unborn human and the gun-shot murder of a grown person just don’t match up seamlessly point for point. Let us not rely on fallacies; there is enough logic in the truth.
The argument is not logical and does not stand to reason. Thankfully most women want their babies and know them for the life they are from the moment they know it. Some reason it away.

Stealing a candybar is not like robbing a bank, but each is a crime with hope (life) to repent of them. If you compare abortion and murder of an adult the effect is death and there is no more hope. We are not given such authority by God about ourselves much less others to include the very new life we create. Human life is unique and deserves protection equally from the first to last moment.

I think the real argument is the civil punishment and collective shame and fear by past participants/supporters. As most things they should be decided locally but all human life should be considered special and worth protection. It’s more Natural Law than legal. So is forgivness of which we are commanded.

The Church instructs a moral chaste life until married and that sex is for procreation, and that seed, and life is sacred. It’s not easy, and maybe not so successfull… They just don’t teach that it is allowed to be fun, but that is another thread. America is not fully Catholic and many pro-abortionists are Christian so if it is a matter of faith something is amiss between being Christian and being pro-life.

Is there a difference to a woman who plots to kill her husband to one that kills her late-term baby? I don’t see one except if the wife does it for insurance from her hubby. I don’t see how this is just a Catholic thing either. This says nothing of the person doing the deed itself. What is the intent of both even in the first trimester to abortion?

We have legislated away our natural respect for life and this lack of respect is seen in our society today. Analogies abound to describe the false choice of deciding worth. Whom do you save from a fire if you can only save one: a 6 month old in a crib or a 90 year old in a wheelchair?

You always try your best to save both regardless of the conditions. Intent is everything. Choices are just part of life.
 
What “things” are you talking about? Homelessness … government programs are not a major cause of homelessness in America … the two major causes of homelessness in America today are Drugs and Mental Illness [or perhpas the legal system that liberalized treatment of mental illness patients such that they cannot be compelled to take medicaltions or be confined to hospitals for treatement …

The Great Society has failed … the pulic housing of the 60’s and 70’s were crated because some folks thought that if you gave nice facilities to poor people at low or no cost, homelessness and poverty would end. Good idea, did not work … the housing developments quickly became ruinous slums … and dens for crime and drugs…

The sexual revolution with its “if it feels good do it” mentality created a climate where free sex went hand in hand with not having to face the reality of the actions …

The Government does not force people to engage in sexual behavior … the government does not force people to abort rather than to offer a child for adoption … judges and legeslatures by their fiat have allowed the man no say in whether his child is aborted or not … nor does that same man have the right to opt out of parenting if they “choose” not to parent … they are forced to support the child [wanted or not] the woman gets to decide if she wants to parent or not …

Children can obtain abortions without their parent’s knowledge and with scholl staff support and active participation, but not an aspirin … SIngle mothers receive more aid through WIC, Food stamps and welfare … some low income married couples can’t get aid … this encourages parents not to marry [and many 'couples live together unmarried and collect aid] which is harmful for the children …

The sex without benefit of marriage crowd has lead to an increase in mothers who have children by two or three faters [none of which were married to their mothers]. Children in homes with non biological fathers are more likely to be abused …

So what government program are you saying is the root of all of the social justice issues of our time?

There have always been poor and rich, smart and dumb, good and evil … human nature always has to choose …
Let’s leave mental illness out of the picture as half the people here don’t know the true story. They should be provided with ahome and not forced to take meds that make them worse off than they were before. This is where they are they continually treated like second class citizens with no rights or limited rights simply because of something that wasn’t their fault.
 
One of my good friends has an extremely left wing, but very dedicated orthodox Catholic pro-life perspective.

His work has been in the creative liberal arts field.

He used to get fired all the time. Because of his pro-life perspective. His professional cohorts were all of a [my words] pseudo-intellectual pro-choice perspective.

Nearest thing to genuine anti-Catholic persecution that I ever saw.
And then to get persecuted here by the right wing for being left wing. I feel for your friedn because he undergoes double persecution. As do many of us on these forums who are prolife but still left wing.
 
I think I can offer a somewhat unique perspective. Quite serendipitously, I came to an ironic discovery about the abortion issue, having been a writing teacher.

I taught college level writing courses for six years, mostly freshman composition classes, at public colleges where proselytizing for any religion is illegal. For argument essays, students wanted to tackle “hot button” topics like capital punishment, gun control, stem-cell research, abortion, topics so overplayed in the media that for a writing teacher they have become clichés; as well, they’re highly prone to plagiarism as pirated essays of this kind abound on the Internet. The status quo arguments have little power to persuade anymore; many students were numb, or merely parroting back what they’d heard without reasoning it out for themselves. Despite the fact that these are important issues, I took the position of “outlawing” them, my excuse being that students rarely bring anything “new” to the table, which predictably caused rebellion. I’d say, “Let’s take abortion for example.” I began by reviewing **connotation **(the emotional associations we have with words) and **denotation **(their dictionary definitions). I asked students to call out words with “negative” connotations about children: rug-rat, ankle-biter, condom mishap (not making that one up), snot-nosed brat, etc. Then I asked for overall “positive” connotations about children: *child, infant, toddler, baby *(which are really *neutral *terms, but in light of the preceding negative ones, they *seem *positive), bundle-of-joy, mamma’s little angel, etc. I gave the typical spiel about how overly positive or negative terminology betrays a non-objective attitude, a bias. Then, I asked for medical terminology: *zygote, blastocyst, embryo, fetus *(for the record, few said blastocyst, except nursing students).

Then, with these words in three neat little columns on the board behind me, I told the tragic tale of a student who wrote about abortion for her 10 page research essay, spending **six pages **detailing the different abortion procedures, just to waste space:mad: , without any reasoning of her own. She discussed in graphic detail (I asked for vivid details of course) how the head of the fetus is crushed with forceps, its limbs dismembered, vacuumed up, etc. going into more detail than even many abortion websites do. I remember feeling a bit nauseous as I read (despite already knowing the facts), but thinking “What a strong pro-life essay.” Then, it turned out her thesis was Pro-Choice. I was floored. “This student’s laziness caused her downfall,” I warned my students, “for it was then that *I came to my great ironic discovery that you really cannot argue **for ***abortion by **describing **abortions.” :eek:

Strictly speaking, as an argumentative strategy, it just doesn’t make sense. When arguing for abortions, you’re shooting yourself in the foot if you cast any bright light whatsoever on the very thing you’re advocating. A Pro-Life essay uses words with **connotations **most suited to their cause: child, infant, baby, murder, whereas a Pro-Choice essay must rely on zygote, fetus, medical procedure, vacuum aspiration, and no matter how you spin it, in the end, there is no way to disguise the dismemberment of a human body. Once they recognized that irony, my pro-choice students usually became perturbed and yet the fact is that describing abortions in detail is gruesome; when disguised by terms with “neutral” connotations and non-emotionally charged language, they’re almost spooky. It didn’t always change minds but it threw much light on how arguments can be constructed specifically to deceive, and some arguments must deceive in order to succeed. If any teachers reading this want to incorporate this as a lesson, feel free. It’s not preaching. It’s promoting sound logical argumentative strategies.

As abortion posts are common, I may post this very story on other threads, so forgive me if you ever see it again–you know where it started. DL82’s proposition of Social change before Legal change is really the only way to go. I don’t ever want to see women imprisoned (as I don’t see Jesus ever wanting to see women imprisoned, or stoned to death, etc). The fact that abortion is murder is one thing, but to equate it with murder in the 1st is essentially the false analogy fallacy–though death is death, abortion of an unborn human and the gun-shot murder of a grown person just don’t match up seamlessly point for point. Let us not rely on fallacies; there is enough logic in the truth.
Excellent essay.

Hope we get to read more of your writing.
 
What “things” are you talking about? Homelessness … government programs are not a major cause of homelessness in America … the two major causes of homelessness in America today are Drugs and Mental Illness [or perhpas the legal system that liberalized treatment of mental illness patients such that they cannot be compelled to take medicaltions or be confined to hospitals for treatement …

The Great Society has failed … the pulic housing of the 60’s and 70’s were crated because some folks thought that if you gave nice facilities to poor people at low or no cost, homelessness and poverty would end. Good idea, did not work … the housing developments quickly became ruinous slums … and dens for crime and drugs…

The sexual revolution with its “if it feels good do it” mentality created a climate where free sex went hand in hand with not having to face the reality of the actions …

The Government does not force people to engage in sexual behavior … the government does not force people to abort rather than to offer a child for adoption … judges and legeslatures by their fiat have allowed the man no say in whether his child is aborted or not … nor does that same man have the right to opt out of parenting if they “choose” not to parent … they are forced to support the child [wanted or not] the woman gets to decide if she wants to parent or not …

Children can obtain abortions without their parent’s knowledge and with scholl staff support and active participation, but not an aspirin … SIngle mothers receive more aid through WIC, Food stamps and welfare … some low income married couples can’t get aid … this encourages parents not to marry [and many 'couples live together unmarried and collect aid] which is harmful for the children …

The sex without benefit of marriage crowd has lead to an increase in mothers who have children by two or three faters [none of which were married to their mothers]. Children in homes with non biological fathers are more likely to be abused …

So what government program are you saying is the root of all of the social justice issues of our time?

There have always been poor and rich, smart and dumb, good and evil … human nature always has to choose …
Government programs thrive in the absence of transparency.

So, the government encourages (through subsidies) people to not marry even if they have children. One of the staggering results has been a huge upsurge in sexually transmitted diseases. However, instead of treating the dramatic increase of sexually transmitted diseases as an epidemic, the government has basically ignored the issue, dealing with it as a boring once-a-year press release item. There are threads on CAF that have attempted to discuss this subject (high incidence of sexually transmitted diseases), but the threads don’t get much traction … kind of ho-hum.

What is needed is more transparency.

We get billions to promote non-existent anthropogenic [man-made] global warming, but nothing to stop the spread of sexually transmitted diseases.
 
And then to get persecuted here by the right wing for being left wing. I feel for your friedn because he undergoes double persecution. As do many of us on these forums who are prolife but still left wing.
No one is being persecuted here by the right wing for being left wing.

Being in a free speech debate has nothing to do with persecution. Just the opposite. Having an opportunity to engage in a debate is an exercise in one’s constitutional First Amendment rights. Being on the receiving end of criticism while engaging in debate is part of the debate.

If some folks are having baseball practice in a batting cage and if they swing at and miss the ball, it’s part of learning how to bat, but that’s not being persecuted.

In that situation, being persecuted would be if passersby didn’t like the person in the batting cage and beat that person to death … actually murdered that person. That would be persecution.

If passersby verbally taunted the person in the batting cage, the best thing would be for the person to simply ignore them. But that’s not persecution.

If the person in the batting cage ignored the taunters, and they increased their taunts to threats and then bodily harm, that would be assault and battery which is against the law … a crime.

But verbal “fisticuffs” are not persecution.

Learning how to discuss and debate effectively takes tremendous time and effort and energy.

Being passionate is not enough. Having an opinion is not enough.

Practicing batting takes a lot of practice and study. Constant study. Persistent study. Looking at the subject (the ball) from every angle. Thus the expression, “Keep your eye on the ball.” Actually. All the time. Churchill was famous for his commencement talk at West Point: “Never give up. Never give up. Never give up.”

And that was it. The whole talk. With huge pauses between sentences.

When someone is in a batting cage, it is even best to NOT swing at the ball at first, but to study the ball as it comes toward the batter. The batter has to study the way the ball spins, bobs and weaves. (And those pitched balls do, in fact, move all over the place.) A batter has to learn how to actually examine the stitches on the ball. It means that he or she has to visualize the ball’s movement. Watch for a while, and then close the eyes and visualize the way the ball flies … the trajectory of the ball. And every time the pitching machine throws the ball, every pitch is slightly different.

Batting isn’t just swinging and hoping for the best. Batting is slowing down the ball in the batter’s head and examining every aspect of the ball. So, batting practice is not just swinging, but examining the ball carefully. In the course of examining the ball, the brain speeds up without the batter realizing it.

Every task that people do successfully, even just walking, involves dividing the task into many smaller tasks and examining each of those smaller tasks. And practicing each “mini-task” over and over. And then linking them together. When babies learn to crawl and then to walk, they fall many many times. But they keep practicing and keep examining each and every aspect until after months and months of practice they start to get it right.

The same thing applies to batting, applies to debate, applies to prayer. Everything. Every human activity. Some folks may seem to have a natural ability, but we may not see the many hours, weeks, or years of practice with all the falls they took.

Persistence is everything. Learning how to learn is part of persistence. Observation and practice.

Constant reading and studying. Lots of blind alleys. But persistence.

One of my heroes is John Boyd.

He was the most persistent person I have ever heard of. Never met the man. But his reputation was incredible and gets better all the time. He had his faults. But his ideas about observation are phenomenal.

ejectejecteject.com/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boyd_(military_strategist

Two different articles about the same guy … two different tones in writing style.
 
No one is being persecuted here by the right wing for being left wing.

Being in a free speech debate has nothing to do with persecution. Just the opposite. Having an opportunity to engage in a debate is an exercise in one’s constitutional First Amendment rights. Being on the receiving end of criticism while engaging in debate is part of the debate.

If some folks are having baseball practice in a batting cage and if they swing at and miss the ball, it’s part of learning how to bat, but that’s not being persecuted.

In that situation, being persecuted would be if passersby didn’t like the person in the batting cage and beat that person to death … actually murdered that person. That would be persecution.

If passersby verbally taunted the person in the batting cage, the best thing would be for the person to simply ignore them. But that’s not persecution.

If the person in the batting cage ignored the taunters, and they increased their taunts to threats and then bodily harm, that would be assault and battery which is against the law … a crime.

But verbal “fisticuffs” are not persecution.

Learning how to discuss and debate effectively takes tremendous time and effort and energy.

Being passionate is not enough.

Practicing batting takes a lot of practice and study.

When someone is in a batting cage, it is even best to NOT swing at the ball at first, but to study the ball as it comes toward the batter. The batter has to study the way the ball spins, bobs and weaves. (And those pitched balls do, in fact, move all over the place.) A batter has to learn how to actually examine the stitches on the ball. It means that he or she has to be able to visualize the ball’s movement.

Batting isn’t just swinging and hoping for the best. Batting is slowing down the ball in the batter’s head and examining every aspect of the ball. So, batting practice is not just swinging, but examining the ball carefully. In the course of examining the ball, the brain speeds up without the batter realizing it.

Every task that people do successfully, even just walking, involves dividing the task into many smaller tasks and examining each of those smaller tasks. And practicing each “mini-task” over and over. And then linking them together. When babies learn to crawl and then to walk, they fall many many times. But they keep practicing and keep examining each and every aspect until after months and months of practice they start to get it right.

The same thing applies to batting, applies to debate, applies to prayer. Everything. Every human activity. Some folks may seem to have a natural ability, but we may not see the many hours, weeks, or years of practice with all the falls they took.

Persistence is everything. Learning how to learn is part of persistence. Observation and practice.

One of my heroes is John Boyd.

He was the most persistent person I have ever heard of. Never met the man. But his reputation was incredible and gets better all the time. He had his faults. But his ideas about observation are phenomenal.
But apparently the only way you are graded in your learning is when you start to agree with one side. Otherwise your opinion is torn apart at every turn. I’m not buying it. The right wing are just insistent that theirs is the only way. In fact the whole gist of this thread is another "You can’t be left wing and prolife " debate. Guess what? You can be.
 
But apparently the only way you are graded in your learning is when you start to agree with one side. Otherwise your opinion is torn apart at every turn. I’m not buying it. The right wing are just insistent that theirs is the only way. In fact the whole gist of this thread is another "You can’t be left wing and prolife " debate. Guess what? You can be.
Rereading what I wrote … the word “you” appears nowhere.

Rereading what I wrote, nowhere does it require agreeing with anyone.

Coming at a topic from different perspectives means disagreement will take place.

It means that both sets of debaters need to learn their craft of debating. And both sets of debaters need to expect being disagreed with. Debate does not require being agreed with.

John Boyd disagreed constantly.

But he studied and analyzed his subject matter constantly. For years. And years.

John Boyd learned his subject so well that his debate opponents were left with no place to hide.

He died a few years ago, and his opponents STILL oppose him. But he persuaded enough people that his ideas are still carried forward.
 
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