A Left-Wing Pro-Life Perspective

[vern_humphrey]

I’m not being combative, but in reference to what?

In reference to killing her child – whether born or unborn.

What is the moral difference between killing a child in January, and killing that same child the following December?

If this is so, it begs the question "Why do young poor women still get abortions?

I suggest you look up the meaning of the phrase “begs the question.” It means to present an argument which asks your opponent to accept your point so you can prove your point.

But to answer the question, the answer is, “Not because they are poor. There is plenty of help available.”

I’m not sure you know (and maybe you do, of course we don’t know each other) what it *really *means to be poor. Do not mistake me for getting on a soap box here. I’ve had a look and it isn’t pretty. True poverty has little to do with money, as evidenced by former street thugs turned celebrities who bring their poverty with them into their mansions.

Yes – but none of that justifies killing the children.

The poor are uneducated to the point that even with resources available, they don’t have the interpersonal tools to even ask for them or avail themselves to them. We can’t just say “We’re offering resources,” and expect abortion to go away.

We offer the resources a woman needs to bring a child into the world raise it – including courses that give her salable skills.

The failure of the education system is a long tragic story. Do you know who teaches in poor communities? Unqualified teachers that can’t get work anywhere else. Technically, my first year as a teacher, I was one of them. Fresh out of grad school (no M.Ed) and the school that hired me was desperate–no one else would take the job for that pay. And the Dean of Students was incompetent, so problem children were sent back to the classroom (“children” who were in gangs. Some had killed people). I had a student offer me $400 to pass him (a junior) so he could get a good grade *and *skip class to work and provide for his *two *children. I tried calling parents. I’d say 80% of my students didn’t have the same last names as their parents. And often it was an elderly grandmother who answered the phone saying “I don’t know what to do with him either. Can’t *you *help? Aren’t *you *his teacher?” Students writing essays about it’s hard to do homework when the baby is crying and their grandmother is smoking crack in the bathroom. I kid you not.

Yes – in the last half century or so, our continual failure to impose accountability on the system has made the problem immeasurably worse.

It’s a black hole of need. And there aren’t enough good thoughts and hand-holding going around just yet, and I don’t know if there ever can be. “The poor you will have always” Jesus said. A law making abortion illegal would target the poor,

And a law making murder illegal would target the poor (look at who commits most of the violent crimes in this country.)

The argument won’t hold water – a law making abortion or murder illegal would target the killers.

and in many cases most likely young women who just don’t know that they don’t know. And to reiterate, I’m not for abortion. I am for fellowship, and against a law. And the job will *never *be done.

Not as long as the law says abortion is a** right**, not a wrong.

And this post doesn’t fall under the *ad misericordiam *fallacy, “appeal to pity.” It is fact. To think it is sad is simply a matter of perspective. For many, it is reality.

Let me explain. Arkansas is about 48th in the nation when it comes to most metrics that reflect prosperity.

This congressional district (the 1st) has 27 counties – and only four of them can match the state average for per capita income.

Of the remainng counties, 19 of them are declining, compared to the state.

I have a pretty good handle on poverty and what it does to people.

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

In reference to killing her child --whether born or unborn. What is the moral difference between killing a child in January, and killing that same child the following December?

This is non-sequitur to what I said. What do months have to do with murder?

I suggest you look up the meaning of the phrase “begs the question.” It means to present an argument which asks your opponent to accept your point so you can prove your point.

No, actually “Begging the question” happens when someone tries to pass off an assumption as true, which needs to be proven, and thus begs more questions. I was a teacher of argumentation. You look it up. My definition comes from “Dialogues” by Gary Goshgarian. I’ve paraphrased.

But to answer the question, the answer is, “Not because they are poor. There is plenty of help available.”

There isn’t. That’s why there are still abortions.

Yes – but none of that justifies killing the children.

Nothing justifies killing children. But we cannot save them all.

We offer the resources a woman needs to bring a child into the world raise it – including courses that give her salable skills.

You can’t account for all women

Yes – in the last half century or so, our continual failure to impose accountability on the system has made the problem immeasurably worse.

Yes, and many of the poor who received poor educations are the only ones who go back to their communites to teach. That is not meant to be a comment on those few professionals slaving in poor communities, but as I said, they are overwhelmed.

look at who commits most of the violent crimes in this country.

And who occupies the majority of jail cells. It is a vicious circle that can only be stopped by Christian fellowship, but few are brave (or foolhardy) enough to enter the “hood,” and those who grow up there and get out often want to stay out.

The argument won’t hold water – a law making abortion or murder illegal would target the killers.

Again the false analogy fallacy. Using militant language will get us no where. You need to be evangelized again.

Not as long as the law says abortion is a** right**, not a wrong.

Abortion is wrong. The law allows for it. The way to stop abortion will not come through the law, in the same way that terrorism hasn’t stopped with Bush ranting “We do not negotiate with terrorists.” If we are not acting like Christ, first, we will get no where. Locking up a girl in jail who had an abortion does nothing but serve the vanity of those who put her there.

Justice without mercy is cruelty.

 

[jwashu]

Here is what the Holy Father says on the subject spoken in 2007-

He’s told such pro choice politicians what they need to do, now what ya reckon he’s gonna tell Catholics that enable such politicians at the ballot box?

Now you can split this, and study it all the ways you want, but in the end to vote for a pro choice candidate is putting your secular agenda ahead of your Catholic Faith, there is no other way to explain it.

I agree with ya, it would be nice if a pro life candidate on the dem side could emerge. There are a few out there, (conservative southern dems ) but they are more conservative then many GOP office holders, so probably not suitable in your eyes to get your vote. Under current democrat leaderhship, don’t look for them to make it to the higher echlons of the party.

People like you, need to reject pro choice candidates outright, like the GOP did Rudy. Then a pro life liberal might have a chance, but just the opposite takes place. No pro life candidate is going far in your party, and thats just the facts. I don’t know a single pro life candidate that is liberal, and I follow this stuff pretty close.

I think the last pro life dem on the national level was Carter?

I disagree, you will find a pro-life license plate, our parish school and a liberal democrat sticker all on my truck.(as soon as I can get a sticker, they are still out)

Recently multiple pro-choice politicans took communion at Papal Masses in the US without being turned away.

Does that mean B16 is ok with their stance? of course not.

Yet I’m sure, being the brilliant Godly man he is, he realizes that it’s not that simple.

For a Nation w/o an abortion law it might be like in Mexcio recently but in a Pro-Choice country for 30+ years it’s not.

We need to also look at economic prosperity as being a BIG predictor on Abortions. They took a drastic nose dive in the 90s… AS DID violence… why? Economics.

Thus we are left with a paradox. The left wing is better at balancing the budget and taking care of the poor (as we are instructed to do), they are against the death penealty (as our faith instructs us) etc… the ONLY thing they disagree with us on as Catholics are abortion and stem cell research. Thus I can turn the table on you, to vote for a Pro-Death penality canadite still putting your ideals above the Church… that is why I say it’s not that simple. We can’t just pick and choose 1 issue to vote on when the Church tells us to be conscience about so many.

If you add it all up the choice is clear, even through basic math. Yet when you factor in the fact that their economic policies are probably goind to ALSO decrease abortion it’s a no brainer (IMHO of course).

Finally take a look at what the right as given us? An unjust war (hasn’t B16 declared it that?) continued abortions for most groups but increased abortions for those most vulnerable (teenagers and early 20s). Don’t take my word for this, look up the data at the CDC.

So much like my journey home, you have to dig to find the truth. I could have accepted the mis information I had heard about the Church or I could dig for the Truth and follow what Christ put on my heart. My family and I are very blessed and very happy that we did follow Him to the Church He founded.

Being Catholic, Christ calls us to be like Him. For the most part He worked within the political system at hand. Right now most Americans are in favor of RvWade… but our Pro-Life movement IS changing that so we must continue to support that movement and increase education for the next generation.

In the mean time we need to increase our support for those groups who are willing to work with mothers considering an abortion to give them other alternatives and identify a political party that whose actions, not words, will result in what we desire to happen.

I have to agree with the OP in that if we change society, where most Americans aren’t in favor of RvW and abortions aren’t that big of a problem then we actually stand a chance of defeating it. The first 6 years of this century we had the best political chance to do something about abortions but nothing was done. I have to believe that was a political choice to ensure votes for the next “Pro-Life” canadate, I don’t buy the rethoretic anymore…

I will support and vote my conscience in that I WANT to see some of those 4000 babies saved in the coming years, not see that number increase. The best way I can do that is to vote for someone who is going to unite the country and work towards economic stability for all. Oddly enough the person, IMO, who is most likely to decrease the number of abortion in the next four years just happens to be Pro-Choice.

Joe

 

[vern_humphrey]

This is non-sequitur to what I said. What do months have to do with murder?

Nothing!!

The child, just after conception in January is just as human as the new-born is a few months after birth.

No, actually “Begging the question” happens when someone tries to pass off an assumption as true, which needs to be proven, and thus begs more questions. I was a teacher of argumentation. You look it up. My definition comes from “Dialogues” by Gary Goshgarian. I’ve paraphrased.

Which differs from my definition, how?

There isn’t. That’s why there are still abortions.
Nothing justifies killing children. But we cannot save them all.
You can’t account for all women

Nor can we save all victims of murder, rape, and so on. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have laws against murder, rape and other crimes.

Yes, and many of the poor who received poor educations are the only ones who go back to their communites to teach. That is not meant to be a comment on those few professionals slaving in poor communities, but as I said, they are overwhelmed.

To paraphrase Kipling, when it comes to education, we have a hundred thousand reasons, but never a single excuse.

It is through making excuses that we have frittered away 50 years and uncounted amounts of money, and failed to improve our system.

And who occupies the majority of jail cells. It is a vicious circle that can only be stopped by Christian fellowship, but few are brave (or foolhardy) enough to enter the “hood,” and those who grow up there and get out often want to stay out.

All of which goes back to our long-term failure to improve our education system.

Again the false analogy fallacy. Using militant language will get us no where. You need to be evangelized again.

Militant language? Calling a killer a killer is “Militant?”

Abortion is wrong. The law allows for it.

And says it is a right.

The way to stop abortion will not come through the law, in the same way that terrorism hasn’t stopped with Bush ranting “We do not negotiate with terrorists.” If we are not acting like Christ, first, we will get no where. Locking up a girl in jail who had an abortion does nothing but serve the vanity of those who put her there.

Justice without mercy is cruelty.

You do understand that every accused person is treated as an individual? And has a defense council?

Wherever mercy is indicated, there are people working to get mercy for the accused.

 

[mapleoak]

This is non-sequitur to what I said. What do months have to do with murder?

It has everything to do with murder. What happens during a period of 12 months that would suddenly make it murder to kill ones child where it was not murder before?

Nothing justifies killing children. But we cannot save them all.

There is huge difference between saving children and killing children. I would assume you know the difference? That is precisely the reason abortion must be allowed, to save as many children as possible.

You can’t account for all women

You can’t account for all murderers, serial killers, rapists, buglars, etc…
Should we just make everything be legal?

 

[mapleoak]

Thus we are left with a paradox. The left wing is better at balancing the budget and taking care of the poor (as we are instructed to do),

Nope. They are better at keeping people dependent on government, and therefore government is better able excercise control over them.

 

[BamaRider]

Here is what the Holy Father said-

Last May, when a reporter pressed Benedict on whether he agreed that Catholic politicians who had recently legalized abortion in Mexico City should be considered excommunicated, his response was, “Yes.”

Benedict’s spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, later said the pope was not setting a new policy and did not intend to formally excommunicate anyone. But Lombardi added that politicians who vote in favor of abortion should refrain from receiving Holy Communion.

So Jwash said this-

Yet I’m sure, being the brilliant Godly man he is, he realizes that it’s not that simple.

Do what? You don’t think the Holy Father is not serious when he says pro choice lawmakers should refrain from Communion? And like I said, if he thinks that about the lawmakers, what do you reckon He’s gonna tell those that enable them?

Yes, those politicians took Communion, but that is not the Pope’s fault, that lies with the local Catholic leadership that allowed that to happen.

I wouldn’t take any comfort in the fact pro choice lawmakers took Communion, I’m sure their local leaders got a earful from Rome.

That stuff ain’t gonna fly with Benedict 16, you can see how upset he was at Mexico City, he thought about excommuniating the whole lot.

I don’t have a problem with liberals, but some put their secular beliefs ahead of their Catholic Faith, there can be no other reason a Catholic votes for a pro choice guy.

But if you think you gotta pass because its “not that simple” then go ahead, vote however ya want, but doggone tryin to convince your fellow Catholics its ok, you are not gonna go unchallenged.

When I see a car with bumper stickers like yours, I don’t think a thing about the dems, I say, “well there goes a Pro Choice voting Catholic,” and everybody else does to. Your neighbors around are saying, “Hey I thought Joe was Catholic, but I see he votes Pro Choice, I guess the Pope changed the rules?”

Take a ride in the parking lot of your local Baptist Church on Sunday. You are NOT gonna see any bumper stickers for people or parties that support abortion.

 

[fix]

It’s a black hole of need. And there aren’t enough good thoughts and hand-holding going around just yet, and I don’t know if there ever can be. “The poor you will have always” Jesus said. A law making abortion illegal would target the poor, and in many cases most likely young women who just don’t know that they don’t know. And to reiterate, I’m not for abortion. I am for fellowship, and against a law. And the job will *never *be done.

Where is the concern for the baby victim in all this?

The law ought to protect all of us including the most innocent. That the mothers are mistaken, or not, does not lead one to conclude legal protection is unjust or contrary to the good of all in society.

Basically, you want an exception for this injustice.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Where is the concern for the baby victim in all this?

The law ought to protect all of us including the most innocent. That the mothers are mistaken, or not, does not lead one to conclude legal protection is unjust or contrary to the good of all in society.

Basically, you want an exception for this injustice.

You may recall we had a discussion of “begging the question” a few posts back.

This is an example of begging the question – subtly advancing the argument that the unborn child is somenhow worth **less **than any other human being, and therefore can be killed with no consequences.

 

[mapleoak]

You may recall we had a discussion of “begging the question” a few posts back.

This is an example of begging the question – subtly advancing the argument that the unborn child is somenhow worth **less **than any other human being, and therefore can be killed with no consequences.

…or that somehow that baby in January is worth less than that same baby in December.

 

[vern_humphrey]

…or that somehow that baby in January is worth less than that same baby in December.

And that particular form of begging the question is at the root of all these arguments that somehow abortion isn’t murder, that the poor girl “had no choice,” that we are somehow “targeting the poor” with laws against abortion and so on.

Oh, yeah, forgot one; That saying laws against abortion target the killers is “militant.”

 

[fix]

You may recall we had a discussion of “begging the question” a few posts back.

This is an example of begging the question – subtly advancing the argument that the unborn child is somenhow worth **less **than any other human being, and therefore can be killed with no consequences.

Yep.

In various States certain laws have authorized the direct suppression of innocents: the moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation must accord them, the State is denying the equality of all before the law. When the State does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a State based on law are undermined…

…*All men of good will must commit themselves, particularly within their prof essional field and in the exercise of their civil rights, to ensuring the reform of morally unacceptable civil laws and the correction of illicit practices. …

*CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

Oh, yeah, forgot one; That saying laws against abortion target the killers is “militant.”

This post was about targeting a social change for abortion before a legal change. That’s why I posted my essay, hoping to give a tip perhaps to other teachers as to how they might discuss abortion in a pro-life light without losing their jobs. But who cares right?

You’re absolutely correct, of course. What a fool I was. Jail the murderers. They’re vicious killers. They might come after your fetus next. I mean, you have resources in place, right? So that means they’ll come, right? And all will be right in the world. That will solve the problem of abortion in America. You’ve all got it figured out. Put those young girls behind bars. That’s what Jesus would want. Forget what I said about fellowship. That was all a lot of nonsense. Jail the killers.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

This post was about targeting a social change for abortion before a legal change. That’s why I posted my essay, hoping to give a tip perhaps to other teachers as to how they might discuss abortion in a pro-life light without losing their jobs. But who cares right?

You’re absolutely correct, of course. What a fool I was. Jail the murderers. They’re vicious killers. They might come after your fetus next. I mean, you have resources in place, right? So that means they’ll come, right? And all will be right in the world. That will solve the problem of abortion in America. You’ve all got it figured out. Put those young girls behind bars. That’s what Jesus would want. Forget what I said about fellowship. That was all a lot of nonsense. Jail the killers.

That’s not strong enough. Execute them all…abortionists and those who seek abortion. Kill them in the name of life. That’s a true right-wing solution.

 

[ArdenB]

This post was about targeting a social change for abortion before a legal change. That’s why I posted my essay, hoping to give a tip perhaps to other teachers as to how they might discuss abortion in a pro-life light without losing their jobs. But who cares right?

You’re absolutely correct, of course. What a fool I was. Jail the murderers. They’re vicious killers. They might come after your fetus next. I mean, you have resources in place, right? So that means they’ll come, right? And all will be right in the world. That will solve the problem of abortion in America. You’ve all got it figured out. Put those young girls behind bars. That’s what Jesus would want. Forget what I said about fellowship. That was all a lot of nonsense. Jail the killers.

Sentencing someone with prison time when they have committed a crime is unchristian?

 

[mapleoak]

You’re absolutely correct, of course. What a fool I was. Jail the murderers. They’re vicious killers. They might come after your fetus next. I mean, you have resources in place, right? So that means they’ll come, right? And all will be right in the world. That will solve the problem of abortion in America. You’ve all got it figured out. Put those young girls behind bars. That’s what Jesus would want. Forget what I said about fellowship. That was all a lot of nonsense. Jail the killers.

You obviously don’t have much regard for those most helpless and innocent of our human race, or for what reason should killing them be considered less henious or less horific of a crime than killing ones neighbor across the street? It has nothing to do with “coming after your fetus next”, rather lack of proper justice not only allows injustice to continue, but also sets the precendent that further and continuing injustice be treated with immunity. Which means more innocent bloodshed, disregard for life, and disdain for humanity. Which means more ‘poor young girls’ turned murderers. Which means more serial killer abortionists. etc., etc.,

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

You obviously don’t have much regard for those most helpless and innocent of our human race, or for what reason should killing them be considered less henious or less horific of a crime than killing ones neighbor across the street? It has nothing to do with “coming after your fetus next”, rather lack of proper justice not only allows injustice to continue, but also sets the precendent that further and continuing injustice be treated with immunity. Which means more innocent bloodshed, disregard for life, and disdain for humanity. Which means more ‘poor young girls’ turned murderers. Which means more serial killer abortionists. etc., etc.,

This is the strawman fallacy. You are refuting my position by attacking an exaggerated/distorted version of what I’ve actually been saying. This thread is filled with strawman logic.

Pro Life----------------Pro Choice
Anti-abortion------ Pro Abortion

The bold represents the Catholic Church’s position, and mine. You obviously have not read my posts. The biggest threat to causing a **social change **is Pro-Lifers **who rely on logical fallacy **to promote their cause: Ad hominem, Ad misericordiam, Ad populum, Begging the Question, False analogy, Either/or slogan ultimatums, etc. abound on this thread and most Pro-Life literature.

Here’s a bumper sticker slogan. I am donating it to the cause:

I am Pro-Life…**Pro-Lifer **that is!
[picture of a girl in a Catholic school uniform, preferably with pig tails, behind bars]
That will win lots of people over, and promote Christianity.

 

[mapleoak]

This is the strawman fallacy. You are refuting my position by attacking an exaggerated/distorted version of what I’ve actually been saying.

Not exaggerated at all. You are stating that murder is justified because it would just be too shocking to see “oh my gosh, girls with pig tails behind bars”:

[picture of a girl in a Catholic school uniform, preferably with pig tails, behind bars]

 

[fix]

This is the strawman fallacy. You are refuting my position by attacking an exaggerated/distorted version of what I’ve actually been saying. This thread is filled with strawman logic.

Pro Life----------------Pro Choice
Anti-abortion------ Pro Abortion

The bold represents the Catholic Church’s position, and mine. You obviously have not read my posts. The biggest threat to causing a **social change **is Pro-Lifers **who rely on logical fallacy **to promote their cause: Ad hominem, Ad misericordiam, Ad populum, Begging the Question, False analogy, Either/or slogan ultimatums, etc. abound on this thread and most Pro-Life literature.

Here’s a bumper sticker slogan. I am donating it to the cause:

I am Pro-Life…**Pro-Lifer **that is!
[picture of a girl in a Catholic school uniform, preferably with pig tails, behind bars]
That will win lots of people over, and promote Christianity.

The Church’s position is that civil law ought to protect innocent life.

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

The Church’s position is that civil law ought to protect innocent life.

And the OP put forth the position that a social change must come before a legal change. It is spiritual laziness on the part of Christians and a scandal to the world to merely say “Lock up the murderers!” I am objecting to all suggestions that I am somehow not thinking of the innocent life of an unborn child. Everyone is jumping down my throat because I suggested that we must come at this via the love of Christ, through a fellowship with the poor who will undoubtedly be targeted by a law. Go to an impoverished neighborhood. Where a Kevlar vest if that makes you feel any better. There must be discernment in passing such a law: the young girl living in poverty giving up her sex because she believes that this is the only way to gain acceptence is NOT the same as the grown woman having indiscriminate unprotected sex and aborting every pregnancy as if she was going to the the tanning salon. Such a law would have to discern between the misguided and the wanton. Saying “Lock 'em all up and throw away the key” shows ignorance on the part of all who have never worked with the poor.

“But Nom the Wise, you are advocating the killing of innocent unborn lives…”

NO I’M NOT! I am advocating the Christian discernment of what passing a “no tolerance” law would mean.