Sorry. Like I said I see no more real hatred among the Democrats than I do among the Republicans. While both sides are tearing each other apart I refuse to look for a Jesus who is tied to either political institution. The people of Israel did this and missed His first coming. If we keep this up we’re all going to miss His second.
Why is a Democratic war considered nutty but the Republican sponsored one not so?:whacky:
First of all, because there is no reason for a war with Pakistan.
And has been often repeated here John Paul II ssaw no good reason for a war with Iraq. So why did we go in there? I owe a higher allegiance to the Pope than I do to the President.
First of all, that’s not true. John Paul had reservations – as he should. Making peace is the Pope’s job.
I’m sorry. I see no more reason for us going into Iraq than you do for us going into Pakistan. We have been using these countries as political pawns between the east and the west for the practically the last hundred years. They can see this. So first they gave the Soviet Union trouble. Now they turn to us. If we had found the proper way to defeat the communist empire instead of the way we did maybe none of this would have happened. And as they say two wrongs don’t make a right. We have done two wrongs. I admit so have they but that doesn’t justify our messing up for the last century.
John Paul asked the president not to invade Iraq, particulary because of the human suffering he feared it would entail. You dismiss that as having “reservations.” I politely disagree.
Pakistan was not founded 100 years ago. [1947]
John Paul never denounced the invasion, and he did say we must stay until the job is done.
WASHINGTON (CNN) – A Vatican envoy who met with President Bush Wednesday said he “clearly and forcefully” conveyed a message from Pope John Paul II that a war against Iraq would be a “disaster.” “You might start, and you don’t know how to end it,” said Cardinal Pio Laghi said after his half-hour meeting at the White House. “It will be a war that will destroy human life. Those people that are suffering already in Iraq, they will be in a really bad situation.” Laghi, a former Vatican ambassador to the United States and a friend of the Bush family, said the president – “a man of great belief” – expressed his own views on the Iraq crisis during the meeting. But the Vatican envoy said Bush, a Methodist, did not try to present a religious case in support of military action. “He did not try to be a pastor or shepherd or preach the Gospel. I tried to preach the Gospel,” Laghi said. Laghi also said he gave Bush the Vatican’s view that the United States should not act against Iraq without the sanction of the United Nations. “It will be an American-Iraqi war, and that is not the way to do it because the government of the United States has appealed to the United Nations,” he said. “Let’s wait for the United Nations, whether they would give a green light in one way or the other.” Pope seeks prayers for peaceA senior administration official said Bush told Laghi that war with Iraq would be “a last option” but that “a disarmed Iraq would leave the world safer.” The president had a “good discussion” on Iraq and other issues, including cloning and “the respect of human life,” the official said. Laghi gave Bush a letter from the pope. The senior administration official declined to disclose its contents. At the Vatican Wednesday, the pope called on the faithful of all religions to pray for peace on Ash Wednesday, the traditional day of fasting at the beginning of the 40-day Lenten period of penitence for Christians. “As we begin our Lenten journey this year, we cannot ignore the tense international situation,” he said. "There must be, on everyone’s part, an aware acceptance of responsibilities and a common effort to avoid another dramatic conflict for mankind. … “For this reason I wished for Ash Wednesday to be a day of prayer and fasting to implore peace in the world. … We must pray and fast for peaceful coexistence between peoples and nations,” he added. (Full story) Later in the day, when he delivered his Ash Wednesday homily, he referred to “threats of war that are facing the world right now” as he called on the faithful to pray and fast. In his efforts to avert a war, the pope has met with three of Bush’s chief supporters, Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi and British Prime Minister Tony Blair, as well as U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan and Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz. He also sent Cardinal Roger Etchegaray to Baghdad for a meeting with top Iraqi officials, including President Saddam Hussein…But in Vern’s world, the Pope did not oppose the war.
WASHINGTON (CNN) – A Vatican envoy who met with President Bush Wednesday said he “clearly and forcefully” conveyed a message from Pope John Paul II that a war against Iraq would be a “disaster.” “You might start, and you don’t know how to end it,” said Cardinal Pio Laghi said after his half-hour meeting at the White House. “It will be a war that will destroy human life. Those people that are suffering already in Iraq, they will be in a really bad situation.” Laghi, a former Vatican ambassador to the United States and a friend of the Bush family, said the president – “a man of great belief” – expressed his own views on the Iraq crisis during the meeting. But the Vatican envoy said Bush, a Methodist, did not try to present a religious case in support of military action. “He did not try to be a pastor or shepherd or preach the Gospel. I tried to preach the Gospel,” Laghi said. Laghi also said he gave Bush the Vatican’s view that the United States should not act against Iraq without the sanction of the United Nations. “It will be an American-Iraqi war, and that is not the way to do it because the government of the United States has appealed to the United Nations,” he said. “Let’s wait for the United Nations, whether they would give a green light in one way or the other.” Pope seeks prayers for peaceA senior administration official said Bush told Laghi that war with Iraq would be “a last option” but that “a disarmed Iraq would leave the world safer.” The president had a “good discussion” on Iraq and other issues, including cloning and “the respect of human life,” the official said. Laghi gave Bush a letter from the pope. The senior administration official declined to disclose its contents. At the Vatican Wednesday, the pope called on the faithful of all religions to pray for peace on Ash Wednesday, the traditional day of fasting at the beginning of the 40-day Lenten period of penitence for Christians. “As we begin our Lenten journey this year, we cannot ignore the tense international situation,” he said. "There must be, on everyone’s part, an aware acceptance of responsibilities and a common effort to avoid another dramatic conflict for mankind. … “For this reason I wished for Ash Wednesday to be a day of prayer and fasting to implore peace in the world. … We must pray and fast for peaceful coexistence between peoples and nations,” he added. (Full story) Later in the day, when he delivered his Ash Wednesday homily, he referred to “threats of war that are facing the world right now” as he called on the faithful to pray and fast. In his efforts to avert a war, the pope has met with three of Bush’s chief supporters, Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi and British Prime Minister Tony Blair, as well as U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan and Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz. He also sent Cardinal Roger Etchegaray to Baghdad for a meeting with top Iraqi officials, including President Saddam Hussein. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------But in Vern’s world, the Pope did not oppose the war.
I didn’t say “any” Dem war is nutty. I said one Dem candidate’s announced intent to go into Pakistan is nutty. Pakistan is not Iraq. First of all, it has more than four times as many people as Iraq. There are no countries except Afghanistan from which we could base it. Hostilities with Pakistan would cut off our access to Afghanistan. Pakistan has a far more competent armed force than Saddam did, and Pakistan is a nuclear power. I don’t know, Jim, but an incursion into a non-consenting Pakistan is “nutty” in my book. If Bush had proposed that, the liberal media would be apoplectic about it, demanding that he be put on “96 hour hold”. But the Dem got a pass.
None of the above is an absolute condemnation of the war. It was a plea for peace and resolution through the U.N. What the Pope did not know, because he couldn’t have known it (it was discovered only later) was that the U.N. was corrupted by Saddam’s “oil for food” money and discounted “oil purchasing rights” (including Kofi Annan’s own son and perhaps Annan himself). Fully two members, and perhaps more, of the Security Council were taking bribes from Saddam. We would still be waiting for definitive U.N. action.
When I read that the Pope has sent an envoy asking our president to not go to war, I get the wild idea he is opposed to that war. The question is not about what the Pope did know or did not know, it was whether or not our late Holy Father opposed the war. You read what I read and reached a very, very different conclusion from that action.
Nonsense. I would not have expected the Pope to endorse any war; not in Iraq, not anywhere. You just invented that. Of course the Pope tried to avoid a war, and it was not only to Bush that he talked.
What can I tell you? Look, we have three options here. The Pope opposed it, he endorsed it, or he was neutral on it. I interpret him telling Bush not to go to war as him opposing it. You reach a very different conclusion. I don’t know that we will change each other’s minds on this issue.
So you hate Bush so much you are willing to twist the Pope’s words. In your world “praying and fasting for peaceful coexistence between peoples and nations” becomes “opposing the war.”
As was mentioned on an earlier post, this is your MO. You take a quote unrelated to the heart of the issue, ignore the quotes that demonstrate the Church’s opposition, and knock down your ludicrous straw man.
As was mentioned on an earlier post, this is your MO. You take a quote unrelated to the heart of the issue, ignore the quotes that demonstrate the Church’s opposition, and knock down your ludicrous straw man.
I was warned not to engage you on issues because of the intellectual fraud which you continuously attempt to hoist upon those who would take issue with you. I ought to have listened.
Oh, look. Vern is being childish after being called out on his methods. Bless his l’il heart. How dear.
